Amira Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 :lol: :lol: :lol: I'd love to take a field trip there!! Amira, I definitely want to come on a field trip to Kyrgyzstan. You're welcome anytime. Really. (Although I know there's no risk in making the offer. ;)) And no Palin rallies, right? :lol: I love to be free of Palin here. And you're safe from hearing anything about the US Constitution. Unless you start talking to someone from the US Embassy, but that's your own fault if you do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mamatohaleybug Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Or does anyone want to come to Kyrgyzstan to meet with us? We don't hear anything weird at church because we just get to do our own thing at home. And I'm pretty sure there isn't anyone doing TJE for a thousand miles around. No Skousen books either. Totally safe. :) Ohhhhhh, sign me up. Sounds like a fun playdate! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missmoe Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 (edited) Well --things seem to have taken a bit of a different turn on this thread! :) If anyone wants a play date in a cool little beach town on the west coast--I'll set it up! Weather hardly ever tops 75 degrees! Perfect. And BONUS--no Palin or TJE here at a.l.l. though I must admit--Glenn Beck is seeming to take hold here and there.:w00t: Edited June 15, 2011 by missmoe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PollyOR Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 I am resurrecting this thread to ask a question about TJEd. I mentioned earlier that my sister is a TJEd fan. Because I want to grow up to be like my sister;) I read the book and attended a couple seminars (and spent lots of $ on stuff). I eventually gave up trying to understand what I was supposed to be doing and left TJEd behind. I have no desire to be involved with it again. A few Sundays ago, one of the mom's at church talked with my girls (13 & almost 16) about a Shakespeare class next fall. My girls are interested and I do think it would be good for them. My problem? I don't want to get sucked into the TJEd community. I've been online trying to find information about the class so I can figure out what it is I'm considering getting involved in. It looks like it is a scholar project called "Shakespeare Conquest" offered through LEMI (Leadership Education Mentoring Institute). Do you all know anything about LEMI or the Shakespeare course? I could ask my sister, but I think she's a little biased. :tongue_smilie: Thanks, Polly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritaserum Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 (edited) I am resurrecting this thread to ask a question about TJEd. I mentioned earlier that my sister is a TJEd fan. Because I want to grow up to be like my sister;) I read the book and attended a couple seminars (and spent lots of $ on stuff). I eventually gave up trying to understand what I was supposed to be doing and left TJEd behind. I have no desire to be involved with it again. A few Sundays ago, one of the mom's at church talked with my girls (13 & almost 16) about a Shakespeare class next fall. My girls are interested and I do think it would be good for them. My problem? I don't want to get sucked into the TJEd community. I've been online trying to find information about the class so I can figure out what it is I'm considering getting involved in. It looks like it is a scholar project called "Shakespeare Conquest" offered through LEMI (Leadership Education Mentoring Institute). Do you all know anything about LEMI or the Shakespeare course? I could ask my sister, but I think she's a little biased. :tongue_smilie: Thanks, Polly LEMI is hardcore TJEd. They always have a big booth at the TJEd forum (conference). Tiffany Earl (pres. of LEMI) is buddies with DeMille. She has two degrees from George Wythe University (the non-accredited college DeMille founded--"TJEd U"). I'd proceed with extreme caution because there are all kinds of mentor training programs and certifications and books that people might push at you. :tongue_smilie: There is always something else to buy as you become more "enlightened". We have never participated with anything from LEMI because my kids were way to young when we abandoned TJEd. ETA: Tiffany Earl wrote a book for TJEd-style math. Here is a detailed review: http://tjedtrenches.blogspot.com/2010/03/doing-math.html Edited June 25, 2011 by Veritaserum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PollyOR Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 I'd proceed with extreme caution because there are all kinds of mentor training programs and certifications and books that people might push at you. :tongue_smilie: There is always something else to buy as you become more "enlightened". Thank you for replying. These are lovely people, but yeah, this is how I feel... :leaving: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xuzi Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 I just did some googling of TJEd, and one article pointed out something that was in the back of my mind while reading the last few posts: it sounds like an educational MLM. You pay out money to learn more, without actually learning the "more" you need to know. You just learn that you need to pay *more* money to learn that "more" you're looking for. Yipes! This article had quiet a bit of eye-opening information: http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/05/a-thomas-jefferson-education/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritaserum Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 (edited) I just did some googling of TJEd, and one article pointed out something that was in the back of my mind while reading the last few posts: it sounds like an educational MLM. You pay out money to learn more, without actually learning the "more" you need to know. You just learn that you need to pay *more* money to learn that "more" you're looking for. Yipes! This article had quiet a bit of eye-opening information: http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/05/a-thomas-jefferson-education/ I almost said the same thing. There are sooo many services and books and seminars and things to spend money on so that you can be smart enough to do TJEd. Still don't get it? No problem! Just pay some more $! :rolleyes: ETA: The more money you spend and the more time you spend in the TJEd community, the more clout you gain. It feels pyramidlike. There's a sense of inflated self-importance by some of them. I went to a Five Pillars seminar about math several years ago. It was taught by DeMille himself, which I guess was a big deal. He went on and on about how one doesn't equal one. One fish doesn't equal one army. So, when your child asks you about equations, you have to start by stating: let 1 = 1. *oohs and ahs over that stroke of brilliance* Also, your child has to learn calculus by reading Newton instead of using a textbook. :lol: Edited June 25, 2011 by Veritaserum Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 Never mind that reading Newton to learn calculus is a recipe for frustration and failure... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K in MI Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 Oh.My.Goodness!!!! I just browsed your "Howling Frog Books" link, and I think I have a reading list for the rest of my life! What a wonderful, diverse selection of books! Thanks. (Actually, I collect frogs, and that was what got my attention.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritaserum Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 Never mind that reading Newton to learn calculus is a recipe for frustration and failure... Well, you're also supposed to learn Spanish by reading Don Quixote in its original, archaic Spanish by using an English translation and a Spanish-English dictionary. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 Well, you're also supposed to learn Spanish by reading Don Quixote in its original, archaic Spanish by using an English translation and a Spanish-English dictionary. ;) You. Are. Joking. Is the idea that the more difficult it is to learn something, the better it is for your character? My husband, who is a calculus genius and has read Newton, says that Newton hadn't figured out infinitesimals and that Leibnitz formalized it properly. Newton's notation system is confusing and no longer used, and if you read Newton to learn calculus, you won't learn it and will not be able to use modern calculus. I have to assume that DeMille does not know calculus at all and has never read Newton or tried to actually do that. My husband also speaks Spanish and owns Don Quixote, and says the Spanish is so archaic that it's older than trying to read the KJV in ENglish and a dictionary wouldn't be much good. I'm horrified by the idea myself. K in MI, thank you! That's so nice of you to say. :001_smile: Hope you enjoy them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritaserum Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 You. Are. Joking. Is the idea that the more difficult it is to learn something, the better it is for your character? My husband, who is a calculus genius and has read Newton, says that Newton hadn't figured out infinitesimals and that Leibnitz formalized it properly. Newton's notation system is confusing and no longer used, and if you read Newton to learn calculus, you won't learn it and will not be able to use modern calculus. I have to assume that DeMille does not know calculus at all and has never read Newton or tried to actually do that. My husband also speaks Spanish and owns Don Quixote, and says the Spanish is so archaic that it's older than trying to read the KJV in ENglish and a dictionary wouldn't be much good. I'm horrified by the idea myself. K in MI, thank you! That's so nice of you to say. :001_smile: Hope you enjoy them. I think it has to do with DeMille's dogmatic insistence that you use classics and not textbooks. In past few years, TJEd supporters have backpedaled enough to say that Saxon Math or Life of Fred are classics. :rolleyes: Just admit that textbooks are more useful than classics (Newton, Pythagoras, etc.) for learning and understanding practical things like math! I completely agree that one should read literature in its original form rather than read a butchered version in a textbook. DeMille gets ridiculous, though, when he tries to apply that to every subject. It makes no sense and I can't imagine that it works well for anyone. My dd11 read about Pythagoras and his contributions to mathematics as part of her history studies this year because it is good to know where we came from. We will get to Newton in his proper time, too. However, she uses a math text to learn math skills in an ordered fashion. There is most definitely a superior attitude put on by those who wholeheartedly adopt TJEd and slog their way through DeMille's list of classics. "I read Principia Mathematica and The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People. I am a scholar." Whoopee! :rolleyes: And are you aware of the proper, TJEd-approved way of organizing your bookshelves and school closet? Oh you're not? Horrors! :eek: Good thing you can hire a TJEd-style closet organizer. Whew! :svengo: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StephanieZ Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 Your kids are very little. . . When you have several older hs'ing kids, schoolwork and kid activities get VERY time consuming, and so finding time for groups gets tricky. I'd imagine that in the typical large LDS family. . . with hs'ing activities, basic kid activities (music, sports, etc), the many LDS church commitments each week, and the strong family-centered life in the typical LDS family, they might have trouble finding time for social hs'ing groups as well. My one good LDS hs'ing friend fits in a couple activities with us, but they are mostly carefully structured to provide hs'ing benefit (structured book club with classics often chosen) and next year we are cooperatively doing three classes (younger kids chem, older kids chem, and a literature study). We also find time for the occasional playdate or birthday party. :) She has 5 kids ages baby - 14 years, and I doubt she finds much time for little-kid geared activities, as the littles get their fun/loving/play within the family! So, if I were you, I'd find play groups and other activities that are geared for moms with little kids, and not worry about hs'ing groups just yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amira Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 Well, you're also supposed to learn Spanish by reading Don Quixote in its original, archaic Spanish by using an English translation and a Spanish-English dictionary. ;) Reminds me of the people who advocate teaching children to read using The Book of Mormon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritaserum Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 Reminds me of the people who advocate teaching children to read using The Book of Mormon. I'm aware of TJEders who do just that. ;) After all, DeMille says you should relate everything back to your core book. Also, here is what he says about The Book of Mormon: "No classic is more important than the Book of Mormon, yet is [sic] has never been used as a central curriculum like the Old Testament, New Testament and the Koran. Not only does the Book of Mormon contain all the necessary fields of study, at levels from Kindergarten to Doctoral studies, it also provides its own specific guidelines for how and what to study—both for religious and secular education. In short, it is the classic of classics, and it’s about time to start utilizing it as such." I love The Book of Mormon, but that's not where I turn to teach my children academic subjects. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xuzi Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 I'm aware of TJEders who do just that. ;) After all, DeMille says you should relate everything back to your core book. Also, here is what he says about The Book of Mormon: "No classic is more important than the Book of Mormon, yet is [sic] has never been used as a central curriculum like the Old Testament, New Testament and the Koran. Not only does the Book of Mormon contain all the necessary fields of study, at levels from Kindergarten to Doctoral studies, it also provides its own specific guidelines for how and what to study—both for religious and secular education. In short, it is the classic of classics, and it’s about time to start utilizing it as such." I love The Book of Mormon, but that's not where I turn to teach my children academic subjects. :) Doctoral studies of what??? War? :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 Doctoral studies of what??? War? :tongue_smilie: I guess war, yeah. Nibley always said that the war bits were highly strategic and all. I'm a librarian. I don't need no TJed-approved consultant to organize my bookshelves!! :coolgleamA: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meggie Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 I'm sorry to hijack, but does anyone have any thoughts (good or bad) about Michelle Stone's Celestial Education philosophy? I don't really want to start a new thread about it, lest non-members read and take offense, but I was wondering if anyone else had seen her video or heard her speak and what their thoughts on it were. :bigear: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PollyOR Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 I'm sorry to hijack, but does anyone have any thoughts (good or bad) about Michelle Stone's Celestial Education philosophy? I don't really want to start a new thread about it, lest non-members read and take offense, but I was wondering if anyone else had seen her video or heard her speak and what their thoughts on it were. :bigear: Meggie, I had never heard of her. Here is a video online. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meggie Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 Meggie, I had never heard of her. Here is a video online. Yes, that's the one I saw! I will admit that I took offense the first time I had ever heard about her because my friend who saw the video declared a classical education to be terrestrial. However, after watching the video I understand her point to be more along the lines of "A Celestial education is a very rigorous education (like classical, but I don't recall her actually saying it) but it ties in to God's perspective." For example, you still learn about math using whichever curriculum you feel is best, but you talk about how God uses math to create worlds and order and whatever else math is good for (I haven't figured that part out yet:lol:). I dunno, it's kind of what I had already planned on doing anyway. I just want to know if there's anything I should "watch out" for (like with TJed). I don't plan on spending money on it anyway, so no worries about being snookered in. ETA: And she does kind of remind me of the Mormon version of Michelle Duggar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritaserum Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 Doctoral studies of what??? War? :tongue_smilie: Math! You know, calculating stuff having to do with the stripling warriors. Maybe you could try to figure out what math Nephi used to build his ships. 'Cause every time you get to numbers when you're reading a classic, you should stop and do the math. That will give you a rock-solid math education, I tell you. :lol: I dunno, there's some good political stuff in TBOM. I love it when King Mosiah separates the church from the government, for example. King Benjamin is awesome, too. He feeds himself by growing his own crops. Plus he believes in charity. The libertarian in me loves these examples. ;) Oh, I recently heard about the new 8th key of TJEd: Secure, Not Stressed. I guess they didn't like how so many of us questioned it and ditched it for methods that actually work. :tongue_smilie: No, it's not the "conveyor belt" that pulled me off the TJEd bandwagon. It's common sense! I'm sorry to hijack, but does anyone have any thoughts (good or bad) about Michelle Stone's Celestial Education philosophy? I don't really want to start a new thread about it, lest non-members read and take offense, but I was wondering if anyone else had seen her video or heard her speak and what their thoughts on it were. :bigear: I've never heard of that before. The name is a turn-off, but I might watch the video while I work on some other stuff.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 This article had quiet a bit of eye-opening information: http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/2008/05/a-thomas-jefferson-education/ You know our very own Julie in Austin wrote that, right? :001_smile: Thanks for posting the link--I've read it before, but hadn't noticed the link to a blog called Why I don't do TJEd. I'm reading through it now and it's really interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritaserum Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 You know our very own Julie in Austin wrote that, right? :001_smile: Thanks for posting the link--I've read it before, but hadn't noticed the link to a blog called Why I don't do TJEd. I'm reading through it now and it's really interesting. I love that blog. Very good points. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DianeW88 Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 I'm sorry to hijack, but does anyone have any thoughts (good or bad) about Michelle Stone's Celestial Education philosophy? I don't really want to start a new thread about it, lest non-members read and take offense, but I was wondering if anyone else had seen her video or heard her speak and what their thoughts on it were. :bigear: Never heard of it, but the name is a bit off-putting. I just figure that I use my brain to find the best of what's out there...curriculum wise, and if it doesn't exist, I fill in the gaps myself. TJEd....I run from. I've seen too many kids around here missing big chunks of their education (like knowing how to read) because their parents have jumped on this bandwagon. I went to one seminar at a homeschool conference YEARS ago (when they used to hold them in the Wilkinson Center at BYU), and when no one could tell me EXACTLY what this TJEd stuff was and HOW you did it, I rolled my eyes and never looked back. One of my wiser decisions. :lol: Also, the name just irritates me. Thomas Jefferson's education was CLASSICAL. Very WTM. Just because he read law when he clerked for George Wythe, does not an educational philosphy make. I've never dared to say that aloud around the more stalwart followers of DeMille. I'm not that brave. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritaserum Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 Never heard of it, but the name is a bit off-putting. I just figure that I use my brain to find the best of what's out there...curriculum wise, and if it doesn't exist, I fill in the gaps myself. TJEd....I run from. I've seen too many kids around here missing big chunks of their education (like knowing how to read) because their parents have jumped on this bandwagon. I went to one seminar at a homeschool conference YEARS ago (when they used to hold them in the Wilkinson Center at BYU), and when no one could tell me EXACTLY what this TJEd stuff was and HOW you did it, I rolled my eyes and never looked back. One of my wiser decisions. :lol: Also, the name just irritates me. Thomas Jefferson's education was CLASSICAL. Very WTM. Just because he read law when he clerked for George Wythe, does not an educational philosphy make. I've never dared to say that aloud around the more stalwart followers of DeMille. I'm not that brave. :D I know! :lol: When I read The Well-Trained Mind and read about the kind of education Thomas Jefferson himself had, I was even more confused by the TJEd claims. I'm still thinking about starting a Utah support group for non-TJEd homeschoolers.... :tongue_smilie: You know, in my "spare" time. ;) I might, however, write a blog post. Hmm.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleIzumi Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 Never heard of it, but the name is a bit off-putting. I just figure that I use my brain to find the best of what's out there...curriculum wise, and if it doesn't exist, I fill in the gaps myself. TJEd....I run from. I've seen too many kids around here missing big chunks of their education (like knowing how to read) because their parents have jumped on this bandwagon. I went to one seminar at a homeschool conference YEARS ago (when they used to hold them in the Wilkinson Center at BYU), and when no one could tell me EXACTLY what this TJEd stuff was and HOW you did it, I rolled my eyes and never looked back. One of my wiser decisions. :lol: Also, the name just irritates me. Thomas Jefferson's education was CLASSICAL. Very WTM. Just because he read law when he clerked for George Wythe, does not an educational philosphy make. I've never dared to say that aloud around the more stalwart followers of DeMille. I'm not that brave. :D That's what I thought when I first heard of the book (the main one). I assumed it was about classical ed. Oops. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 (edited) I've been sitting here watching that Michelle Stone Celestial Education lecture for a few minutes. I'm sure she's a very nice lady and there are some good basic principles in there, but on the whole I'm thinking it's kinda fluffly, and her history is pretty garbled (the Puritans did not have Shakespeare, they disapproved of plays and he was new back then). But then! She brings up John Dewey and says "Everyone likes John Dewey, right? The Dewey Decimal System...." :cursing::banghead: Argh! John Dewey has nothing to do with it. MELVIL Dewey invented the Dewey Decimal System, and there are many things you can criticize him about (most of the 200's for one thing), but progressive education isn't one of them. Edit: It's looking like it's all downhill from here... Edited June 25, 2011 by dangermom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meggie Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 Oh yeah! I forgot about the Puritans and Shakespeare! I remember thinking, "I don't think that's right" along with the rest of her history of the Puritans (and apparently Melvil Dewey), but promptly forgot it (ADD here). But my knowledge of world history is severely lacking, so I wouldn't know exactly what was wrong with it. In the end, I have problems whenever a bunch of people jump on a bandwagon in the name of religion. I'm always sure there's got to be something wrong, but I'm not smart enough to know what. I do like the idea of incorporating religion with all other subjects (like they kinda, sorta, sometimes do at BYU), but that's about all the useful stuff I got out of it (and it was already what I had been planning on anyway!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleIzumi Posted June 25, 2011 Share Posted June 25, 2011 I'm watching that video. :001_huh::001_huh::001_huh: I discuss religion during other subjects a lot on my own. I don't need help with that, as far as I can tell.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LittleIzumi Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 Wait a minute. Did she just mention Brown vs. Board of Education in her list of lawsuits that are getting worse & worse re: education & evil that have been prophesied? What, pray tell, is wrong with Brown vs Board of Ed?? (22 minutes in) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritaserum Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 Wait a minute. Did she just mention Brown vs. Board of Education in her list of lawsuits that are getting worse & worse re: education & evil that have been prophesied? What, pray tell, is wrong with Brown vs Board of Ed?? (22 minutes in) I don't know. :lol: Dh begged me to turn it off after 10 min. Too fanatical for us. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritaserum Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 Ok, I did it. I've got some TJEd higher ups as Facebook friends and my blog automatically posts to my Facebook page, so things could get interesting. Or they might just ignore me. Either way, I'm glad to get that off my chest. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 Wait a minute. Did she just mention Brown vs. Board of Education in her list of lawsuits that are getting worse & worse re: education & evil that have been prophesied? What, pray tell, is wrong with Brown vs Board of Ed?? (22 minutes in) I don't know either--I quit by 20. It just got worse and worse! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meggie Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 oh I forgot about the Brown v. Board of Education statement.:svengo: Thanks guys. I finished watching it and it left a bad taste in my mouth. I wasn't quite sure why. I think I'm smart enough to realize what I like about it, but I'm not smart enough to pinpoint what I don't like about it. The same thing happened after I read TJed. I thought there were some good points, but wasn't going to abandon the classical route for it. I'm sorry I made you waste time on it, but I do appreciate the feedback. After I read WTM, I knew it was exactly what I needed. I couldn't shut up about it. After reading TJed and watching that video, I didn't even bother talking to my husband about it. There are some good things in it, but nothing I haven't already planned on. And Laura, that blog post is awesome. Very, very awesome. Let us know if there is a fallout over it, you're reasoning and critique is very sound. I feel kinda stupid right now :crying:. And I wonder if that's why other people get snookered in, they don't recognize the half truths and logical fallacies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amira Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 Ok, I did it. I've got some TJEd higher ups as Facebook friends and my blog automatically posts to my Facebook page, so things could get interesting. Or they might just ignore me. Either way, I'm glad to get that off my chest. :tongue_smilie: Aw, Wordpress is blocked right now in my neck of the woods so I can't read what you wrote. Wish I could. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritaserum Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 Aw, Wordpress is blocked right now in my neck of the woods so I can't read what you wrote. Wish I could. Here, I'll copy and paste. :) What makes a good educational philosophy? (Part 1) I’ve been musing on this topic lately. We recently finished our sixth official year of homeschooling (counting K – 5th). Philosophically, I am in a very different place from where I started at the beginning of our homeschooling journey. I was originally introduced to homeschooling by friends who follow the educational philosophy outlined in A Thomas Jefferson Education by Oliver DeMille. Before reading A Thomas Jefferson Education, I read a few other books on homeschooling that I found at my local library. At the time I enjoyed The Unschooling Handbook by Mary Griffith, which teaches a philosophy of child-led learning. John Holt, who wrote books such as How Children Learn, was another author I read during my pre-homeschooling years. He is the father of the unschooling movement. I have always loved rich, classic literature, so I was intrigued by what I heard my friends saying about A Thomas Jefferson Education (TJEd). My husband and I read the book together and we agree that we want our children to be prepared to be individual thinkers and leaders rather than products of “the conveyor belt†of education. I became involved with our local TJEd community, attending a Face to Face with Greatness seminar, forums (conferences), and classes. I read more things written by Oliver DeMille and other TJEd authors, determined to help my children achieve “leadership education.†I grew frustrated, though. I felt like I was spinning my wheels to get our homeschool up and running, but I just didn’t have enough practical knowledge to feel satisfied with what we were doing. I re-read my TJEd book and articles. I bought more books. I attended more lectures. Then I began to question whether TJEd was actually what my family should be doing. I doubted whether or not I should be homeschooling at all because I knew that I was not facilitating the type of education that would foster well-adjusted adults capable of leadership. I more closely examined DeMille’s “Seven Keys of Great Teaching†and reconsidered their effectiveness in creating a well-educated person: Classics, not Textbooks As I mentioned before, I love classic literature. I get lost in Austen’s romances. I’m swept away by Robert Louis Stevenson’s adventure stories. I’m thrilled by the epic battles and heroic deeds in the ancient tales. I have very much enjoyed sharing classic literature with my children. We also enjoy classic art and music, and we include original source texts (where possible) in our history studies. I have come to disagree strongly, however, about using classics exclusively–especially for subjects such as math and foreign languages (among others). Newton’s Principia Mathematica is most decidedly NOT an effective way to learn calculus. Textbooks that systematically instruct a child from basic arithmetic to multi-variable calculus and linear algebra are a much more appropriate and effective tool for learning and understanding mathematics. Newton’s contributions to math and science should certainly be studied, but history would be a more appropriate location in the curriculum than applied math. (In more recent years I’ve heard TJEd proponents backpedal a bit to include Saxon Math and Life of Fred as classics, but my original exposure was that DeMille himself suggested using novels like The Chosen for math studies.) Reading Don Quixote in its original, archaic Spanish with the aid of an English translation and a Spanish-English dictionary is definitely NOT an effective way to learn Spanish. A far more effective course of study would be to use a textbook that outlines important topics such as conjugation, syntax, and vocabulary. After those basic skills are learned, they can be mastered through reading, writing, and speaking (modern) Spanish. I’m now certain that classics AND textbooks are both needed. Mentors, not Professors I have fewer problems with this Key. As a homeschooling mom, I sometimes wear a mentor hat, guiding my child through a process with encouragement, questions, and suggestions. At other times, I have knowledge that my child lacks and needs, so I actively teach her what I know. Both models are necessary during the educational process, depending on the student’s needs and abilities at any given time. I’m a fan of mentors AND professors. Inspire, not Require This was a total, utter flop for us. Yes, I model studying (and cleaning and working) to my children. No, they don’t automatically want to do as I do. As with the other Keys, I combine Inspire with Require. I explain why a particular skill/task/book/activity is worthwhile and I require it if it’s something I feel strongly about my child doing. Math (via textbook) every day is a requirement in our homeschool. Structure Time, not Content This was another Key that I just could not make work. I floundered because my children didn’t always know what they wanted to learn. I also realized that there were things I needed them to learn, but I couldn’t teach them without a plan for the content I wanted to cover. I’ve also realized that I am a planner. I like lists. I like order. I like knowing how to get from Point A to Point B. I dislike gaps and a scatter-shot approach to a topic. Above all, the adult in the relationship, I am better equipped to know what my kids need to learn before they reach adulthood. My kids and I ALL breathed a sigh of relief once I started making weekly lists of what we were going to do on each school day. We have regular school hours (mornings are saved for schoolwork with afternoons available to finish, if needed). My kids and I know what content we are going to cover at a minimum. They can and do delve deeper into topics that interest them. I’m a fan of structured time AND content because my kids learn far more than they would otherwise. Quality, not Conformity I pretty much agree with this one. I give feedback that identifies any problems. My students correct the problems, thereby learning how to improve the quality of their work. Mediocrity is unacceptable. Simplicity, not Complexity I disagree that a “complex†or diverse course of study will cause burn-out, frustration, and lack of creative thinking. A classical education, the type of education Thomas Jefferson himself received prior to being mentored by George Wythe, is rigorous and covers a wide array of subjects. Literature makes more sense when you understand the history of the time in which it was written. Scientific advancements and mathematical concepts build upon and correct earlier ideas. Knowledge of the past helps us understand how humanity arrived at its present state and can help us better predict what the future holds. Formal logic enables critical thinking, which is precisely what is needed to create leaders rather than followers. I keep our implementation as simple as possible, but my children enjoy a “complex†curriculum. You, not Them Watching me learn is not the same thing as having my children learn for themselves. I am a big believer in modeling a desired behavior, but not to the exclusion of gently guiding or (if needed) insistently instructing my children in how they should behave. My public school education and 4-year BA degree have left gaps in my own education. I’m filling those gaps as my children and I follow the structure of the classical trivium. It should be You AND Them. Secure, Not Stressed This Key was added after I abandoned TJEd, but I want to address it. One of the reasons I left TJEd with a bad taste in my mouth is that I knew a lot of other parents felt lost on how to do TJEd–how to create these articulate, knowledgeable statesmen who would lead humanity into a better tomorrow. I got frustrated and, honestly, offended by admonishments to “trust the process†because I didn’t see the process working for very many people. TJEd is new and radical. Unproven. That’s not something I could trust without more evidence that TJEd does, in fact, produce brilliant thinkers and leaders. It stressed me out to know the outcome I want for my children (secure, independent, critical thinkers) and not have a proven, practical way to facilitate that goal. My stress has gone down and my security has gone up after I changed my approach to a true classical model. I am critical of A Thomas Jefferson Education as an educational philosophy because the methods are unlikely to produce the stated goal of independently thinking leaders. I looked at the great minds that DeMille so zealously lauds, and found that Thomas Jefferson was educated via the trivium model of classical education. So, if I want my kids to have an education like Thomas Jefferson actually had, I know that a classical approach is the way to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritaserum Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 (Part 2) Reading The Well-Trained Mind changed my life and the course of my children’s education. I know that’s a rather dramatic statement, but I was ready to throw in the towel and send my kids to public school because I did not know how to give them an education based on the classics at home. The Well-Trained Mind showed me how. It taught me the basic patterns of classical education. I’ve been able to tweak it to give each of my children the education most appropriate for their needs and abilities as students and my needs and abilities as a teacher. Homeschooling has been so much easier with a well-worn, proven road to follow rather than having to carve my own path through the wilderness. This is not a conveyor belt that spits out cookie-cutter conformists. Classical education produces reasoned, knowledgeable people who are grounded in an understanding of the world and know how to learn and evaluate new ideas. Surely we need more of those. My own education has improved dramatically as well. With the concept of a four-year history rotation to guide me, I have read more classics in the past three years than I read when I was officially a student. My understanding and appreciation of the world is much deeper and richer than it once was. When my husband and I visited Europe last month, I had the historical and cultural context needed to truly appreciate what we were seeing. It’s wonderful! So, what makes a good educational philosophy? My answer to that question is this: A good educational philosophy is one that works to help your student reach his or her educational goals. For our homeschool, a liberal arts, classical education is the most likely way to reach our goal of articulate, thoughtful, rational, well-rounded adults who love to learn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritaserum Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 And Laura, that blog post is awesome. Very, very awesome. Let us know if there is a fallout over it, you're reasoning and critique is very sound. :blush: Thanks. :) I feel kinda stupid right now :crying:. And I wonder if that's why other people get snookered in, they don't recognize the half truths and logical fallacies. I got snookered in, too. :grouphug: Don't feel too bad. I was naive and idealistic. Once I employed some critical thinking, I found my way back out to solid ground. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meggie Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 I got snookered in, too. :grouphug: Don't feel too bad. I was naive and idealistic. Once I employed some critical thinking, I found my way back out to solid ground. Well I am hoping that doing the classical route with my children will help give me the education I wish I'd had. Then I won't be so confused when I hear things like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritaserum Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 Well I am hoping that doing the classical route with my children will help give me the education I wish I'd had. Then I won't be so confused when I hear things like this. Exactly! :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie in Austin Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 Ok, I did it. I've got some TJEd higher ups as Facebook friends and my blog automatically posts to my Facebook page, so things could get interesting. Or they might just ignore me. Either way, I'm glad to get that off my chest. :tongue_smilie: That is a great post. My sense is that TJEd appeals to people who (1) want a great education for their children and (2) did not have a great education themselves. They have a clear goal, but they don't know how to get there. TJEd is appealing, but they don't realize that it (usually) won't work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elizabeth in MN Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 Meggie, I had never heard of her. Here is a video online. So far I am rather horrified at all the incorrect information she's giving. It was MELVILLE Dewey who invented the DDC, not JOHN Dewey. Unitarianism IS a Christian religion. Then she goes into an anti-GLBT and Enviromental rant and I just couldn't stomach the hate anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 That is a great post. My sense is that TJEd appeals to people who (1) want a great education for their children and (2) did not have a great education themselves. They have a clear goal, but they don't know how to get there. TJEd is appealing, but they don't realize that it (usually) won't work. That is probably true. I wonder if I would have gone for it if I hadn't read WTM first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veritaserum Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 That is a great post. My sense is that TJEd appeals to people who (1) want a great education for their children and (2) did not have a great education themselves. They have a clear goal, but they don't know how to get there. TJEd is appealing, but they don't realize that it (usually) won't work. That appears to be an accurate assessment. Most of the people I know who are hardcore TJEders only have a high school diploma and in general have not had much exposure to the world (e.g. lived in the same place they grew up in and rarely visit other places). I do have a BA, but I still fell for DeMille's ridiculous notions. When they didn't work, I at least had the sense to try something different. I'm so glad I tried TWTM. :) I'm grateful that my oldest was only 7 when I made the switch. It still took another year or two for me to let go of all the silly ideas TJEd espouses. It's like I was leaving a cult and needed to reassert my critical thinking skills and individual thought. Looking back, that really scares me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amira Posted June 26, 2011 Share Posted June 26, 2011 Here, I'll copy and paste. :) Thanks. Take that, KazakhTelecom. And it's been very interesting reading your experience with TJE. I don't know anyone IRL who uses it, although I've read a lot about it from people who love it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meggie Posted June 27, 2011 Share Posted June 27, 2011 You know our very own Julie in Austin wrote that, right? :001_smile: Thanks for posting the link--I've read it before, but hadn't noticed the link to a blog called Why I don't do TJEd. I'm reading through it now and it's really interesting. Over the past few days, I've been reading it and some of the comments. Wow!:svengo:The one about the FEC is really scary. I can understand that that's how they do it in their family, but to say that's how it should be done is very creepy. Giving their kids callings and voting on it and releasing them. Oh, I've just reached the point about bookshelves and closets. We'll see how this goes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangermom Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Wait a minute. Did she just mention Brown vs. Board of Education in her list of lawsuits that are getting worse & worse re: education & evil that have been prophesied? What, pray tell, is wrong with Brown vs Board of Ed?? (22 minutes in) Dude. She totally did. :svengo: (I decided to slog through a little more to see how bad it was. I'm having to take it in short chunks.) However, from what she said, it's entirely possible that she thinks that Brown vs. Board of Education was a court case that "took prayer out of schools." :001_huh: It's not like if school-sponsored prayer was allowed in public schools, it would be prayer that we would like much...personally I much prefer it as it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xuzi Posted June 28, 2011 Share Posted June 28, 2011 Dude. She totally did. :svengo: (I decided to slog through a little more to see how bad it was. I'm having to take it in short chunks.) However, from what she said, it's entirely possible that she thinks that Brown vs. Board of Education was a court case that "took prayer out of schools." :001_huh: It's not like if school-sponsored prayer was allowed in public schools, it would be prayer that we would like much...personally I much prefer it as it is. Me too. I honestly have never understood the hoopla over prayer not being "allowed" in schools anymore. Of COURSE it's allowed! I prayed all the time in school! Quietly, in my heart, offering a personal plea to the Lord. Nobody stopped me or harassed me. It just wasn't sponsered by the school, which I am A-OK with! I can pray just fine on my own. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MusicMama Posted June 28, 2011 Author Share Posted June 28, 2011 Wow. I'm glad I dodged the TJed bullet. Although I vaguely remember my sil saying something about it...I was probably pregnant and too tiredto research it. :001_smile: I can't believe people could fall for such a sham! I don't understand how people fall for MLM either. I love the WTM, and like other people, it changed the way I wanted to teach my kids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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