National Geographic, child bride article...

[kitten18]

 

The photo of the 14 yr old girl bathing her newborn, while her 2 yr old looks on, just hurts my heart.

 

The idea of a 12 yr old experiencing childbirth....ugh.

 

I was horrified by that picture too. Did you see how small the 2 year was??? My kids were tiny, there are lots of tiny kids in my family, but that 2 year old was soooo little.

:crying:

[A.D.]

I personally have a problem with people being repulsed by youngish females getting married but fine with 13 year olds having unmarried sex. Is it that they shouldn't be tied down to commitments (just the fun of a boyfriend), the idea that such women will immediately start having lots of kids and not be educated, the idea that "those men" don't really love their wives because "their culture" doesn't value women, or what? Those are, to me, separate issues, some of which may be inaccurate.

 

Incidentally, not ALL males who marry young females mistreat them. I am not a particular advocate for young marriage, but I think it's worth pointing out. There was a very touching moment in this interview on the Diane Rehm show on Teen Mothers in the Developing World from 2004 where Dr. Lubana Ahmed, from Bangladesh, discusses how her father treated her mother, who was married at a very young age. He ensured she finished high school. She discusses the importance of women in society, including crediting her paternal grandmother for instilling in her father this commitment to education.

 

1.) I don't believe you will find many people arguing that sex at age 13, even when consensual, is a good thing.

 

2.) It is reasonable to say that in the cultures that are practicing arranged marriages at these young ages, that yes, the education for women in general is not valued. Are there exceptions to this? Certainly, but they appear to be rare based on the opportunities for education given to women in those areas.

 

3.) Do some of these men love, or learn to love, their wives? Sure. That still doesn't justify or excuse arranged marriages for 12-year old girls. Just because some of the men don't mistreat their wives seems like a flimsy reason to try and defend the practice.

[Rosie_0801]

I don't want to misinterpret your tone, so could you throw me a small bone please? Or even PM me with a link? My google-fu is failing me, and i'm eyeball deep in dating sites.

 

Huh. So am I now. :lol: I was looking at this stuff years ago and don't remember what I typed into google. I'll see if I can find anything other than dating sites!

 

Ah, here's a place to start: http://www.jannah.org/sisters/marriage.html I've only read the first essay so far, but this is the sort of stuff I was looking in the past.

 

Rosie

Edited May 25, 2011 by Rosie_0801

[Amirah]

Several years ago, the author of "Standing Alone in Mecca" was on NPR talking about her hajj. It was a completely different side to Islam than had been talked about at the time, so I got the book from the library and read it. I really enjoyed it

 

I just went and read some of the reviews of the book on Amazon and most of the negative reviews say that she's not accurately representing the religion. Have you read the book? If so, I'd enjoy hearing your opinion. Of particular interest to me were her comments on the Quran - that there aren't verses there to support certain positions (like women having to be hidden in the back areas of mosques lest they distract men).

 

no i am sorry to say i haven't read this book yet. i have heard of the author before(not much but i heard her name mentioned a few times.) i will answer your question though. She is absolutely right there is no verses that support positions like that. women are suppose to pray behind men but that can be a few rows behind or in a seperate area. mainly because its mandatory for the man to go to the mosque and pray unless he just is unable. honestly the seperation is convenient for women because there are normally men coming in late for prayers and they join the back of the men line. now if the women line starts right behind the men the women will get distracted by all these people and lose focus on the pray (plus we are not suppose to cut infront of someone praying). also there is nothing in the Quran that says women can't work or go to school or any other silly things as long as she is not neglecting her children and husband and house duties.

[amey311]

Huh. So am I now. :lol:

 

At least it's not just me! I like being in good company :)

 

OT: i love the titles for your kids.

[Amirah]

Huh. So am I now. :lol: I was looking at this stuff years ago and don't remember what I typed into google. I'll see if I can find anything other than dating sites!

 

Ah, here's a place to start: http://www.jannah.org/sisters/marriage.html I've only read the first essay so far, but this is the sort of stuff I was looking in the past.

 

Rosie

 

thank you for posting this!!

[nd293]

Child brides have been happening for forever. As long as a woman's worth is tied up in her virginity, it will continue to happen.

 

And poverty doesn't help.

 

Child brides marrying cousins. :(

 

Marrying cousins seems odd to us but has its own logic within societies that practice it, such as family stability and ongoing contact with daughters to an extent that might not occur if they married outside the family. In countries where education levels have risen (e.g. Arab Gulf countries) it is discouraged on the basis of the genetic problems which arise.

[kiana]

I would guess that abortion is not an option in many of these situations. Some are dealing with poverty, some are dealing with geographic isolation, and other profoundly limiting situations. I'm sure for others it's a matter of "this was really awful, but hopefully my husband will find a good match for my daughter." Some people are trying to make slightly thoughtful matches (like the 5 year old to a 10 year old - at least they're somewhat close in age), and when you consider the alternative point that was made (if they're not marked as married, they could be raped), well, marriage might seem like the lesser of two evils. What is an uneducated mother with 10 children going to do?

 

 

I didn't think it was to 'protect' them from rape, but rather to 'protect' them from being unable to marry due to loss of virginity.

 

You see (imo, looking at the article), if a married woman is raped, she is still married. If an unmarried woman is raped, she is no longer a virgin, so it will be far more difficult for her to find a husband.

[amey311]

I didn't think it was to 'protect' them from rape, but rather to 'protect' them from being unable to marry due to loss of virginity.

 

You see (imo, looking at the article), if a married woman is raped, she is still married. If an unmarried woman is raped, she is no longer a virgin, so it will be far more difficult for her to find a husband.

 

That could be. I read the article quickly because it was making me feel awful (and I didn't want my kids to start reading over my shoulder).

[Aelwydd]

i just wanted to say while you have every right to your opinion, i am a muslim woman married to a muslim man and i am in NO Way 2nd class and never have been because true Islam doesn't make women second class its people with twisted mentalities that do. some of the most important people in the history of islam are women and alot of important knowledge came from and was taught to other men by women.

 

i don't agree with a child getting married and when i say this i mean child by the definition in Islam which is someone who hasn't hit puberty. i am against forcing someone to get married because this is a cultural issue as well as genital mutilation and honor killings. [/Quote]

 

Amirah, my comment on Islam was that, having read the creation story in the Quran, and having consulted with two Muslim scholars, that the religion definitely relegates women to a second class status. You disagree, and I respect that. Your husband may be a fantastic, wonderful man. But, just as there are many wonderful Christian husbands, there are wonderful Islamic husbands, too; however, both owe their awesomeness to their basic, human decency, not to the religion they practice. Because both Islam and Christianity put men on a pedestal, and consign women to subservient roles.

 

Also, I already pointed out that the issue of FGM has its origins in obscure cultural roots; but, it is the sexist attitudes inherent in Islam and Christianity which are at least partly responsible for keeping these practices alive and well. I have tried to make it clear in this thread that I'm not singling out Islam at all--I also hold Christianity, Hinduism, and other religions responsible for sexism in their teachings.

 

Once again: if religion affirmed the equality of status between men and women, in all aspects of life (spiritual, intellectual, physical, etc.), then the many of these practices and beliefs would fall out of favor, and it wouldn't be taboo for young girls to practice self-determinism.

 

side note: i know some may get tired of me jumping in and standing up for Islam. i have to do it i don't think ppl have to agree but i have to at least say the truth. i can't sit back and let people perpetuate false stereotypes or misguiding of some people as the teachings of the my religion when its not

 

I understand that you need to defend your faith, but I also am no less convinced of my own opinion, based on my own study of Islam. That study has included reading the Quran, the hadith, the history surrounding the Prophet, and talking with Muslims I know.

 

Please believe me, that I don't hold you as any less kind or intelligent than any Christian or other religious person, because I disagree with your particular religion. Muslims face a lot of prejudice and suspicion in our society, and I just want to make it clear that even though I disagree with many aspects of Islam, I have found many things to respect about my Muslim friends.

[Rosie_0801]

Marrying cousins seems odd to us but has its own logic within societies that practice it, such as family stability and ongoing contact with daughters to an extent that might not occur if they married outside the family. In countries where education levels have risen (e.g. Arab Gulf countries) it is discouraged on the basis of the genetic problems which arise.

 

It is also a custom used to keep property from being divided into parcels too small to sustain a family.

 

Rosie

[Osmosis Mom]

I am not reading this whole thread (not wearing contacts and up because 3 yo ds is having a hot dog right now after having coated a bowl of gold fish with cocoa powder, yes, one of those nights/mornings), but I just wanted to add that at the time of the Prophet girls were very early mature and ready to get married at an early age. It is not the norm.

 

BTW the link to jannah was a bit weird. Women being compared to cattle or what does chattel mean??? Women are highly regarded in Islam and the mother and wife is considered queen in her home.

 

Islam came as an universal religion for all (historical) ages. As someone mentioned, people have se@ and kids outside of marriages.

 

I do feel bad for young girls getting married to older men, but life is unfair in many parts of the world with few options to many girls. Supposedly at least by getting married they get some rights (even in places with little literacy). I should add here that in islam both boys and girls are encouraged to seek knowledge all their lives through.

 

Just a little input before I now proceed to read Make Way for Ducklings (if I can see the words).

[Blueridge]

I finally got the article to open. So, a 5 year old was marrying a 10 year old??? :eek: :ack2: :crying:

[jenangelcat]

This isn't just an overseas thing. The sex trade is alive and well in North America. Most of the adult prostitutes that everyone derides were sold into it as children. It is a huge problem but most people don't want to believe that it's true.

[PiCO]

3.) Do some of these men love, or learn to love, their wives? Sure. That still doesn't justify or excuse arranged marriages for 12-year old girls. Just because some of the men don't mistreat their wives seems like a flimsy reason to try and defend the practice.

 

Reminds me of Civil War history- slave owners argued that not all slave owners were cruel to their slaves. They said slavery was good because we need to take care of the "negroes" because they cannot take care of themselves.

 

I'll bet the people who support the marriage of young girls to older men feel much the same way- someone has to take care of these poor helpless girls...

 

(Before someone misquotes me, I don't agree with either of the above stances. I am just comparing the arguments others make.)

[Alphabetika]

I couldn't even finish this article. Too disturbing. I was aware that this practice existed, but it was the photos.

[Free]

Amirah, my comment on Islam was that, having read the creation story in the Quran, and having consulted with two Muslim scholars, that the religion definitely relegates women to a second class status. You disagree, and I respect that. Your husband may be a fantastic, wonderful man. But, just as there are many wonderful Christian husbands, there are wonderful Islamic husbands, too; however, both owe their awesomeness to their basic, human decency, not to the religion they practice. Because both Islam and Christianity put men on a pedestal, and consign women to subservient roles.

 

Also, I already pointed out that the issue of FGM has its origins in obscure cultural roots; but, it is the sexist attitudes inherent in Islam and Christianity which are at least partly responsible for keeping these practices alive and well. I have tried to make it clear in this thread that I'm not singling out Islam at all--I also hold Christianity, Hinduism, and other religions responsible for sexism in their teachings.

 

Once again: if religion affirmed the equality of status between men and women, in all aspects of life (spiritual, intellectual, physical, etc.), then the many of these practices and beliefs would fall out of favor, and it wouldn't be taboo for young girls to practice self-determinism.

 

 

 

I understand that you need to defend your faith, but I also am no less convinced of my own opinion, based on my own study of Islam. That study has included reading the Quran, the hadith, the history surrounding the Prophet, and talking with Muslims I know.

 

Please believe me, that I don't hold you as any less kind or intelligent than any Christian or other religious person, because I disagree with your particular religion. Muslims face a lot of prejudice and suspicion in our society, and I just want to make it clear that even though I disagree with many aspects of Islam, I have found many things to respect about my Muslim friends.

 

Rebekah, that was such a balanced, respectful yet honest post. Thank you for that.

[Nan in Mass]

I totally understand the cousins part. Would you rather marry your child to a stranger, or to someone you had watched grow up, or at least grew up with your husband, and could be held somewhat accountable for his actions because of the family ties, someone you were more likely to have future contact with, someone who might even live close by and show up at all the family festivals and events?

It is easy to take for granted the hardships of one's life if they are hardships shared by one's whole community. Even in the US, where we are taught to think for ourselves, many of us go along with things that would be unthinkable other places. I know western Europeans who are appalled at the things they here about here in the US: metal detectors in schools, police carrying guns, circumcision, spanking, 16yo's driving, racial prejudice, ... They can't understand why on earth we tolerate these things. I'm not saying that western Europeans are better than people from the US. I'm sure they have their own problems. I'm just trying to give an example of the difficulties of changing things even in a developed country. I'm also not saying that the custom of child brides ought not to be changed. I'm just saying that I can see how, as a mother, you might just accept the situation, if it had happened to you and everyone else you knew and you had never had much say in your life or your world, especially if the situation was complicated and the other choices carried their own risks or were just as bad but unfamiliar. Rock and a hard place...better the devil you know...etc. Dull the mothers down with ignorance and malnutrition and exhaustion and the situation gets even more hopeless...

-Nan

[amey311]

I finally got the article to open. So, a 5 year old was marrying a 10 year old??? :eek: :ack2: :crying:

 

Yes, but it sounded like it was more of a marriage contract (betrothal?) because the girl still lives with her family until puberty. So while she's married and now tied to this boy, they're not "living together alone as a married couple" married.

 

Which makes it slightly more palatable. Sort of.

[sleepymommy]

These practices were more common in the past and males and females from some cultures do reach a maturity level beyond that of our kids and teens here in the US. I mean think of all the hardships that a 10 year old in a developing country may have witnessed and gone through- deaths of siblings due to lack of health care, lack of food, walking miles just for a bucket of water, a lot of time taking care of the home while parents work, cooking, cleaning for the family, working to earn wages to help put food on the table. These kids don't really have the option of staying at home with their parents until they are they are in their 20's.

 

As many have moved past this and have more stable footings in life as well as more opportunities for education these things have declined. But not everyone in the world has had these opportunities and they still have to live like this.

 

Marrying a young girl to an old man is just plain sick on so many levels, I cannot understand one bit of it.

 

I can understand the betrothals and marriages without consummation though. I'm not saying they are ideal but I can understand a bit. As someone stated earlier, the uncle of the 5 yr old (which is quite young and I doubt really the norm) felt secure in having her married to the boy (probably of whom a family he knows) as this basically marks her as "taken". She would be safer from rape or kidnapping as she is someone's wife. In Hinduism, it's not just the boy and girl that are married, it is the families. Now she is protected by not just him but the boys family as well.

 

My grandparents on my dad's side had an early child marriage. My grandmother was 13 or 14 yrs old and my grandfather was 15 or 16 yrs old. They were not allowed to stay together or even be alone together. My grandmother stayed with her parents. My grandfather finished school, went to college and then finished medical school. After he had a good job (doctor) that could provide for a family, then only did they come together as a true marriage and live a life on their own.

 

As my grandmother grew she developed that love and excitement for her husband, knowing one day they would be together. My grandfather would write letters to her from school, etc. It was more like a really long courtship.

 

Now do all of these types of marriages turn out perfect and great, NO. But neither do all of the typical marriages here.

 

It's very different to understand because the culture is just different, period. We think its crazy to marry someone that your parents picked out. They think it's crazy to date multiple people until you've found "the one". It's just different.

 

This would never, ever happen in our family now. Even my parents didn't marry until they were 30yrs old (and that was pretty old for marriage back in the 60's). But the times were different then. Education for women did and does have a big part in the reason. Girls just didn't go to school for very long back then. (And a pretty, young developing girl is just not considered safe without a husband, too many things could go wrong.) Unfortunately, while this has changed for the majority there are still those that live in rural, poor areas where this is still the cultural norm and sometimes the cultural necessity.

 

This is probably not the best example, but my brain is a bit caffeine deprived at the moment. It's kind of like people in America thinking that slavery was okay because that was just the cultural/societal norm here. It was okay to think that you could own a person as a piece of property. It worked for some, some slaves were treated very nicely by their owners, it didn't work for others (most). Times have changed, mindsets have changed, the culture has changed, the societal needs have changed. But could it possibly ever happen again in some parts of the world?