Why does this irk me?

[Ohdanigirl]

She will most likely be required to take English classes, right? And there she will be at a disadvantage compared to the other students who had English instruction for native English speakers in school for many years.

So, HER foreign language is evaluated compared to native speakers.

I think it's only fair she gets a break with Spanish.

 

In California, incoming students are tested and placed with other kids in the same ability. She is an ESL student and is with kids with similar background. The material is at her level, and the school provides extra English tutoring on Saturday for free if she feels she needs it.

 

Any how, thanks every one. I guess t is just a matter of opinion. I appreciate the different points you have all made. It has given me various ways of looking at it.

 

Danielle

Edited May 10, 2011 by USDGAL

[MinivanMom]

I think the US should learn from Israel in this case.

 

In Israel, since they have a relatively big population of Anglo kids, or kids of one Anglo parent, or kids whose parents worked abroad and the kids thus got fluent - in short, they have a relatively big population of kids native or fluent in English - and in many schools they offer this thing called dovrei anglit, which is basically a differentiated English class geared specifically towards those children. It helps them to keep up both the spoken component of the language and age-appropriate literacy.

 

In many parts of the US, I find that the situation is "extreme enough" to warrant such an approach - differentiated Spanish classes for native and heritage speakers. That way everybody profits, children who need to learn have their own class, and those who already speak Spanish do not stagnate.

 

:iagree:

 

That would be a brilliant approach. Native Spanish speakers could theoretically take a class called Spanish for Native Speakers instead of the typical Spanish I, II, III sequence. It could be a single class that covers all of the content of Spanish I-III with an emphasis on reading, writing, and grammar. If they followed it up with AP Spanish Lang and then AP Spanish Lit that would still be three classes in a single foreign language for college application purposes.

[PiCO]

She recently informed me via Facebook that she was put into AP Spanish.:confused: She is a native Spanish speaker. Apparently, almost all the kids in her AP Spanish class are from similar backgrounds.

 

This doesn't seem right to me. Am I just being silly?

 

I didn't read all the other posts, just some of them- but I wanted to chime in and support you.

 

I have a friend whose daughter is in AP Spanish right now. It's been a horrible year for her, because of the problem you stated above. She is the only non-native Spanish speaker in her class. The teacher tries to make it a good class for the native speakers (equivalent of AP English for native English speakers,) but this leaves my friend's dd in the dust, and confused after every class.

 

So I don't think you're being silly at all.

[Caroline]

:iagree:

 

That would be a brilliant approach. Native Spanish speakers could theoretically take a class called Spanish for Native Speakers instead of the typical Spanish I, II, III sequence. It could be a single class that covers all of the content of Spanish I-III with an emphasis on reading, writing, and grammar. If they followed it up with AP Spanish Lang and then AP Spanish Lit that would still be three classes in a single foreign language for college application purposes.

 

This approach is followed at many schools with a large Hispanic population.

[OLG]

I do feel for those in the class who don't have that background. Separate classes would be sensible as others have said. If she goes on to college, most schools will test her for their program regardless of whether she has a good AP score or not so the disparities will be settled at that level. This is one of the reasons those AP and SAT subject tests in languages(Spanish particularly) are not looked upon in the same manner as other AP exams by many colleges - they know native speakers are a large part of that pool these days. It is frustrating for others taking the exam though.

[cindergretta]

I read the whole thread and now I am confused. Or rather, I am still confused.

 

The girl in the OP is a native speaker of both English and Spanish? Or just one language? She is fluent in both languages or just one? Is the issue that she is fluent in Spanish and taking AP Spanish? Or she is an ESL student and not good enough for AP Spanish?

 

:confused:

[myfunnybunch]

It would bother me. I don't see it as a language issue. The idea of taking any class just for an "easy A" has always rankled with me a little. IMO, the learner is cheating him or herself by doing so because they are spending time repeating what they already know instead of learning something new.

 

Cat

[Ohdanigirl]

I read the whole thread and now I am confused. Or rather, I am still confused.

 

The girl in the OP is a native speaker of both English and Spanish? Or just one language? She is fluent in both languages or just one? Is the issue that she is fluent in Spanish and taking AP Spanish? Or she is an ESL student and not good enough for AP Spanish?

 

:confused:

 

Sorry. She is a native Spanish speaker. I mentioned her being ESL, in response to a question another poster asked. That really has nothing to do with the AP Spanish class.

 

Danielle

[Lolly]

Because one can speak a language doesn't mean they understand the grammar or spelling, or can read it. Fi, plenty of Americans can speak English, but do they have a command of it? ;) Same with a child in the US whose first language is Spanish but learned English when they went to Kindergarten or preschool. (Heritage speaker, right EM? )

 

Are we sure the student in question has AP level Spanish skills?

 

I'm sure he does. Smart boy. Well educated parents. I have no doubt that he had more Spanish grammar and knowledge than his teacher. He just saw no point in the class. They had to do truly stupid projects. (According to him. All he wanted to do was play his music which is what he currently is doing as an adult.)

Edited May 10, 2011 by Lolly

[Lolly]

:iagree:

 

That would be a brilliant approach. Native Spanish speakers could theoretically take a class called Spanish for Native Speakers instead of the typical Spanish I, II, III sequence. It could be a single class that covers all of the content of Spanish I-III with an emphasis on reading, writing, and grammar. If they followed it up with AP Spanish Lang and then AP Spanish Lit that would still be three classes in a single foreign language for college application purposes.

 

:iagree:

[indigomama]

I grew up in CA, with lots of native Spanish speakers.

 

The advanced Spanish teacher who taught the AP classes would screen the students. She would not allow native speakers in the AP Spanish language class, they would be in the AP Spanish literature class. There is a huge difference between the two classes.

[Aubrey]

That is not what I said, and she does not. She is an ESL student who attended k-8 in Mexico. She actually knew many of her classmates going in to this school. Which means they are pretty much all from the same background.

 

I live near the border, and it is common place for many students to go to the US for school to get the 3 years needed for in state tuition in college. Since this is something the school is used to dealing with, I would think they would at least open an other class. It doesn't seem fair to non-native speakers.

 

Danielle

 

The bolded part is a separate issue & if addressed separately is likely result in a much more open-ended discussion & positive outcome.

Edited May 10, 2011 by Aubrey

[Aubrey]

It would bother me. I don't see it as a language issue. The idea of taking any class just for an "easy A" has always rankled with me a little. IMO, the learner is cheating him or herself by doing so because they are spending time repeating what they already know instead of learning something new.

 

Cat

 

If you approach education as simply a matter of learning, you'll short yourself politically.

 

Iow, if your dad is a PhD in math, making AP math an "easy A"--should you bypass the credit & go ahead & sit through Alg I in college? That doesn't make any sense.

 

I think part of the problem here is that AP IS college credit. I think students are wise to accrue as much of that as possible. It looks good on a transcript, it usually earns college credit, & it is more challenging than many alternatives.

 

Think what this student's transcript would look like to a college admissions officer if she *didn't* take AP Spanish--it might have made her look lazy, kwim? Since she "already knew it" & didn't bother to take the class.

[Stacy in NJ]

transcript much with an AP Spanish class. Colleges are going to look at that and say D'oh. If she were to take AP English - that might impress. The point of AP classes is to gain college credit and to pad the transcript.

[Hannah C.]

Haven't read any other replies, but I'm fairly certain that at my college, you can get credit for the foreign language requirement if you speak another language fluently. In other words, they aren't going to make you learn a third language.

 

I know lots of people at my high school spoke Spanish at home and took the class. I don't know that any took the AP class, but some probably did.

 

I think it would actually *benefit* the other students in the AP Spanish class to have native speakers to practice with! The only way the native speakers' presence would disadvantage non-native speakers is if the teacher tailored her instruction to the super-advanced native speakers/curved tests based on top grades probably earned by the native speakers.

 

FWIW, the only people I know of who made good scores on the AP German test were native speakers.

[myfunnybunch]

, if your dad is a PhD in math, making AP math an "easy A"--should you bypass the credit & go ahead & sit through Alg I in college? That doesn't make any sense.

 

But if my dad is a PhD in math, that doesn't make *me* able to easily pass a math class. This is more like if *I* was working at a college level in math and took an middle school math course I could breeze through just for the credit. (The OP has said the girl is tickled that it's middle school level material for her.) And if I went to college able to do PhD level mathematics, they'd hardly force me to sit through an Algebra I class.

 

Cat

[Aubrey]

But if my dad is a PhD in math, that doesn't make *me* able to easily pass a math class.

Well...you get greater exposure. A native speaker of a language gets this from his parents, generally speaking.

 

This is more like if *I* was working at a college level in math and took an middle school math course I could breeze through just for the credit. (The OP has said the girl is tickled that it's middle school level material for her.)

If the AP Spanish material is middle school level, that's a problem, but it's a separate and different problem than that stated in the OP. By definition, AP Spanish material should be college level. Period.

 

To follow my ex above, though, if you've been talking/thinking about math w/ your dad since you were very small, such that you could have easily passed AP Calc in middle school, taking it in highschool is not invalid. You're simply taking it at the first available opportunity, although you may be chagrined that it was not offered sooner & that you wasted six years of math on inane ps curric.

 

And if I went to college able to do PhD level mathematics, they'd hardly force me to sit through an Algebra I class.

 

Cat

 

My experience w/ college? They don't care what level you're at; certain coursework is required. Period. So if you know the material, why sit through the class if you can test out?

[Ohdanigirl]

Just to clarify...

 

Aubrey, it may be college level for those in the US learning it as a foreign language, but it is what people are learning by middle school here in Mexico. Well, not really the grammar (lower level), just the reading and writing portion.

 

Danielle

[Ester Maria]

If the AP Spanish material is middle school level, that's a problem, but it's a separate and different problem than that stated in the OP. By definition, AP Spanish material should be college level. Period.

You see, this is the problematic part.

 

AP languages ARE middle school level (and AP literature, at least French when they had it, was maybe high school level) for a native speaker educated in the language. Not for an average heritage speaker, not for a learner, but for a native speaker educated in the language, it is a complete joke. It IS easy credit. Heck, my 14 yo got 100% on a sample SAT II for Hebrew (and strictly speaking she never lived in Israel, only got to spend a lot time with Hebrew speakers) and laughed all the way through at how easy it was. The sample AP Italian was even a bigger joke in her eyes. Those are stuff that a native speaker educated in the language just cannot not know. The only thing she needs is a bit of concentration - and, if literature, she just needs to read those texts and she can already improvize a lot.

 

Now, the fact that the kid will get a college credit is not what bugs me - but the fact that she is occupying a slot destined for somebody else and if there are many people like her, the course is going to get at least partially tailored by them, who are of course on a whole different level compared to kids for whom the course is destined. In theory it should not happen, but in practice it does, and it affects the dynamics of the whole class, thus putting non-speakers at a considerable disadvantage. It would be like tailoring school English based on my daughters - but with one HUGE difference: in the schools where my kids test nearly all subjects are mandatory and non-differentiated. In other words, kids often have no choice, if you are an English speaker you have to sit through the same program as other kids (in practice, professors might have mercy and allow you to read in the class, but you cannot not do English or not take an exam because you already know English, if the school requires specifically English).

But, if the school says "English or French", an honest kid is very likely to take - French, and prove their knowledge of English by taking internationally recognized exams for English if they want a formal recognition of their knowledge and will thus not have any problems in the future for not having taken specifically English at school.

 

In the US more often than not one DOES have a choice (and in Europe it is the opposite, they often make you take specific languages): not only one has a choice in various language options in many schools (Spanish might not be the only language offered), but there is also the option of simply taking certain exams without even sitting through the class. If the girl had NO options like that, then I would find it okay and concede that she was not doing anything wrong. But if she HAD options, this is just getting away with easy stuff. She should have taken French or German or whatever else available, and/or AP Spanish without sitting through the course.

Edited May 11, 2011 by Ester Maria