A Different View on Insomnia ... Sleep, Depression, and Insomnia

[Negin]

and I thought to share. I saw this a while back on another board. I haven't yet finished reading it. Too much info these days and too little time. ;)

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Less sleep = more energy and cure for depression & insomnia?

 

"What I'm about to post was extremely helpful to me, so I wanted to share it in case it might be helpful for someone else. I'm not trying to make depression or sleep problems seem like a simple matter. This has just helped me so much that I couldn't NOT share it!

 

I watched a DVD recently by Dr. John McDougall. In it he discusses depression and sleep problems. He says that we have been taught that we need too much sleep - that 8, 9, 10 hours is too much. He says that healthy adults need 5, 6, maybe 7 hours of sleep. He said there was a study done where they took extremely depressed people (suicidal!), and deprived them of one night's sleep. The very next day, 70% of them were cured of their depression.

 

I've not struggled with depression, but when I watched this DVD early in December, I was struggling with being chronically tired and just not having any energy. I was trying my best to get 8 hours of sleep at night so that I could have enough energy to get through the next day. So I would either go to bed early so I could get 8 hours of sleep (and therefore not get to spend much time with my husband), or I would stay up later and be miserably tired all the next day. I thought that I needed more sleep to be able to keep up with the demands of homeschooling young children.

 

Well, when I heard Dr. McDougall say that I didn't need as much sleep as I thought, I decided right away to try an experiment for one month of getting less sleep.

 

I had previously been going to bed sometime between 8:00 and 9:00 P.M. and getting up at 5:00 A.M. My experiment was to try to be asleep by 10:00 P.M. and to get up at 4:00 A.M. So I was going from getting 8-9 hours of sleep to getting 6 - 6 1/2 hours of sleep.

 

I was expecting to crash and burn on that amount of sleep... but I didn't! I feel better and have so much more energy than before. I have been doing this for 2 months, and the results have stayed the same. Not only do I have more energy, but I've gained time in the evening to spend with my sweet husband. I've also gained an hour in the morning of planning time, which allows me to spend some one-on-one time with my children in the afternoon.

 

Oh, my husband is also trying this out. Before he started doing this, most nights he would wake up at 2 or 3 A.M. and not be able to get back to sleep for a couple of hours, if at all. Now he sleeps straight through the night, and hasn't had that problem at all for two months!

 

Here is an article by Dr. McDougall about sleep and depression.

 

And here's one about insomnia

 

Edited to add: It is not at all my desire to impose this on anyone. I'm just trying to get the info out there!"

 

My thoughts: Although I have not yet read these in their entirety, I think one key point is to stop stressing about sleep or lack of it. When you're tired, you WILL sleep. The more we stress about our sleep, the worst it gets.

[gracesteacher]

I haven't read the articles but sleep depervation it self will make you depressed and suicidal.

 

The biggest thing is to go to bed when you are first tired and wake up naturally. Some people are six hr sleepers (most are not) sleep until your body wakes you up and you will see what length of sleeper you are. Don't worry about times or numbers and turn off all electronics 1/2 hr before bed no caffine six hrs before bed no exercise two to four hrs and eat have a cool dark place and that will halp. At least it has work for my pts

[KidsHappen]

I watched a DVD recently by Dr. John McDougall. In it he discusses depression and sleep problems. He says that we have been taught that we need too much sleep - that 8, 9, 10 hours is too much. He says that healthy adults need 5, 6, maybe 7 hours of sleep. He said there was a study done where they took extremely depressed people (suicidal!), and deprived them of one night's sleep. The very next day, 70% of them were cured of their depression.

 

I just wanted to point out that the cure only lasts as long as they stay awake. It is not a permanent cure. The effect is transiant.

[Peela]

It is interesting, and I hadn't read the information before...so thanks Negin, I like new information ....but I am not convinced.

It does make sense that people who oversleep because they are depressed, might feel better with less sleep.

But it doesn't take into account the seasonal changes- I think it is normal to sleep more in winter and less in summer. Also, people tend not to be in touch with their natural circadian rhythms, with artificial lights and all. I think for most people, going to bed earlier and getting up earlier would help switch them back into their natural sleep rhythms and help cure some depression at least.

However...I find the information interesting, if not completely convincing- and next time I have pms I might play with it a bit.

[6packofun]

Well, they must be referring to very mild "depression" because I'm very skeptical of anyone claiming a cure in ONE day. How many days after the miraculous cure are they still actually cured? LOL I think that everyone needs a unique, optimal amount of sleep but the more important factor, at least for me, is *consistently* getting it. If I get 5 hours one night, 8 the next, and it's all over the place each week, I'm like a zombie. This is what I'm trying to accomplish right now. I think everyone needs to find their optimal amount of sleep and try to go to bed at the same time each night, if possible. (I think part of my problem is that I don't get to wake naturally EVER.)

[Guest RecumbentHeart]

It's always worth a try if nothing else has been helping. Personally, extra sleep hasn't helped me any on any front either and everything is a lot better when I only get 5-6 hours sleep BUT that's straight sleep .. which is a change for me from 8 interrupted hours so .. that's probably key for me. :)

[Negin]

I haven't read the articles but sleep depervation it self will make you depressed and suicidal.

I don't think he's talking about sleep deprivation. He suggests: 5, 6, maybe 7 hours - as opposed to possibly stressing because we didn't get the 8 or 9 hours or whatever. I know that I often have far more energy and feel more upbeat when I get 5-7 hours as opposed to 8 or more. Just me.

 

The biggest thing is to go to bed when you are first tired and wake up naturally. Some people are six hr sleepers (most are not) sleep until your body wakes you up and you will see what length of sleeper you are. Don't worry about times or numbers and turn off all electronics 1/2 hr before bed no caffine six hrs before bed no exercise two to four hrs and eat have a cool dark place and that will halp. At least it has work for my pts

:iagree:

I despise alarm clocks and never use them. Maybe only when we need to catch an early AM flight. But even then, my body always, always wakes up way before it should ...

 

I think it is normal to sleep more in winter and less in summer. Also, people tend not to be in touch with their natural circadian rhythms, with artificial lights and all. I think for most people, going to bed earlier and getting up earlier would help switch them back into their natural sleep rhythms and help cure some depression at least.

:iagree: Except here in the tropics, the days are pretty much always the same length. Guess, consistency is key. And how one feels.

My personal observation: those that I have seen who are very depressed, tend to get lots and lots and lots of sleep ...

 

I think everyone needs to find their optimal amount of sleep and try to go to bed at the same time each night, if possible. (I think part of my problem is that I don't get to wake naturally EVER.)

:iagree:

 

Personally, extra sleep hasn't helped me any on any front either and everything is a lot better when I only get 5-6 hours sleep BUT that's straight sleep .. which is a change for me from 8 interrupted hours so .. that's probably key for me. :)

Me too. I always feel better on less sleep than on getting lots and lots of sleep, except on rare occasions when my body seems to naturally need more - PMS at times, jet lag, whatever.

When I get 8 or more hours of sleep, I always feel more tired and lethargic the next day than when I get 5-6 hours. Mind you, I do love my naps. :D

[KidsHappen]

My personal observation: those that I have seen who are very depressed, tend to get lots and lots and lots of sleep ...

 

In these cases. the excessive sleep is a symptom of the depression not the cause, at least according to the DSM-IV-TR (2000).

[kdeno]

I am going to try to shoot for 7 hours and see if I have more energy.

 

Thanks!

 

Kariann

[LaissezFaire]

Two words come to mind. Snake Oil

[Hot_Stove]

Yes, in some people (usually people who are already somewhat depressed or predisposed to depression), sleep can be "depressogenic." Check out this link:

 

http://www.cet.org/eng/Index_ENG.html

 

This is a group of researchers with very serious institutional affiliations who have had good results with "wake therapy" for depression. Psychiatrists have known for decades that you can often get dramatic reversals of depression symptoms from just one night of sleep deprivation; however, because the benefits can disappear after as little as one minute of sleep, it was not conventionally considered a sustainable form of treatment. The CET researchers have discovered that they can extend the positive effects by combining sleep deprivation with bright-light treatment, sleep phase advance (going to bed and getting up earlier), and anti-depressant medication.

 

As far as I can tell, however, they do not recommend generally reducing the overall amount of sleep one gets. Although the mood-lifting effects of sleep deprivation can be useful for those of us with serious mood disorders, your body needs sleep for a ton of other well-established reasons, and severely limiting sleep should not be undertaken lightly. (Also notice that they do not share Dr. McDougall's contempt for medication. As a person who has lived with this disease for years - and researched it to death - I tend to run, not walk, away from anyone who suggests that I should arbitrarily limit the treatment modalities that are available to me. So if I didn't already know about wake therapy from other sources, that would have turned me right off. Which is perhaps reflected by some of the other responses on this thread. Not everyone who feels "down" from time to time needs anti-depressants, but it is irresponsible to suggest that people who have severe health problems that are helped by medication sacrifice their daily functioning in quixotic pursuit of a "natural" lifestyle. FWIW, it can be particularly offensive to receive such suggestions from people who are themselves in good health.)

 

I do find that my depression is better with less sleep, but there is a trade-off with other aspects of functioning when I am sleep-deprived. (And yes, if I only slept 5 hours a night over an extended period, that would be sleep deprivation. The natural range of how much sleep people need is pretty wide, but people who really don't need more than 5 or 6 hours for optimal physical functioning are rare.) I may feel great emotionally, but I will move slowly, have an upset stomach, reaction time is slowed so I'm not safe to drive, etc. Also, not sleeping (or sleeping way less than your body is telling you to) is a heck of a discipline, so it's difficult to sustain. It's a big trade-off to make for the mood benefits, which is why it's only for people with a serious problem, not everybody. Ideally, it would only be done under a doctor's supervision, but most of the ones I've met know less about it than I do. The above website is a great resource for self-treating in this manner.

 

Also, sleep deprivation can make otherwise healthy people depressed. This is often a factor in PPD, for example. On the other hand, the giddiness that comes from staying up all night can tip one over into a manic state. An otherwise healthy person who decided to experiment with sleep deprivation could be letting themselves in for trouble. Proceed with caution.

[Peela]

OK, I experimented with this already- not that i am depressed, but I am sick (nasty fluey thing). I have been having trouble sleeping. So 2 nights ago I got to sleep around 11 and woke up at 4am with a strong dream. I decided to just get up rather than stay in bed and doze. It was very lovely and I had a walk and got things done, went to the beach with dh and had another walk and swim. Tried to have an afternoon nap but coughed too much. But in the evening- ds wanted to rearrange his room so we spent 3 hours decluttering, shifting HEAVY furniture and basically working physically hard to get his room how he wanted it. I fell asleep again around 11pm- amazed that I had been going strong all day, even when sick, after only 5 hours sleep.

 

This morning I woke up at 7am- so my body naturally caught up and slept for 8 hours.

 

OK< this has nothing to do with depression but it was interesting to me that if I didn't think about how little sleep I had had, I was fine and had plenty of energy for the day, and had a really lovely day. I think I get sleep- obsessed.

Edited March 31, 2011 by Peela

[kdeno]

I was dying to go to bed early but I found I got a second wind and had some productive time. I had to do a 3am bg check on my son and had a hard time going back to sleep but so far I feel good today!

[kdeno]

I guess I need more sleep. I am ready to rip someones face off. (is there a smilie for that? )

[Impish]

As someone that considers 5-6 hrs sleep deprivation, I have to say that sleep is unique to each person.

 

I get 5 hrs, and I'll have migraines. Period. Feel like I have the flu, its just horrid.

[Peela]

Yeah well, I thought I was over this flu because I felt good all day yesterday, but last night when I went to bed I started coughing and just couldn't stop. By midnight I managed to doze for a couple of hours sitting up. At 2am I got up to find teenagers still up- told them to go to bed. Managed to sleep for a few more hours. Today, I feel pretty cra**y. Tried to nap this afternoon- couldn't.

Not pleasant to feel tired and not able to rest.

I guess thats different from depressed though, although I am sure PMS is involved now too.

I am going out to the garden, not to eat worms, but to do some gardening- hopefully it will exhaust me enough to sleep tonight.

[jewellsmommy]

As someone that considers 5-6 hrs sleep deprivation, I have to say that sleep is unique to each person.

 

I get 5 hrs, and I'll have migraines. Period. Feel like I have the flu, its just horrid.

 

 

I agree. My dh can get by and function on 6 hrs. I can't. I have tried. I will wake up nauseous and my head feels funny. I just have a higher sleep requirement. Too many days of less than adequate sleep and my anxiety kicks in (plus general grumpiness). But maybe less sleep is better for some people?

[Kelly on the prairie]

I read about a study a few years ago linking sleep deprivation to reduced psychological symptoms for PMS. The evidence suggested that when a woman starts getting that edgy feeling, she should stay up way late for one evening. For some reason (I can't remember) it throws the body off cycle just enough to counteract the effects of PMS.

[Onceuponatime]

Having had sleep deprivation and PPD with my 4th child, I've learned a few things along the way.

 

My personal opinion: Counting hours of sleep and thinking about how much sleep you have or haven't had is a big part of the problem. When I start obsessing over sleep, I don't feel as well as when I just go with whatever my body seems to need.

 

At times, I find myself awake at 4 a.m. when I don't want to be. I either get up and do something or lay in bed just letting my thoughts wander on pleasant things. The one thing I don't do anymore is think about how I should be asleep and try to get back to sleep. That makes for a tense uncomfortable day.

 

When I start focusing on sleep, I don't have good sleep at all. Going with the flow and adjusting my bed time as needed works great for me.

Edited April 2, 2011 by Onceuponatime

[Negin]

Two words come to mind. Snake Oil

I don't understand how it could be snake oil :confused:. He's just saying to not stress about the number of hours we sleep. Or at least I think he is. He's not trying to sell anything. It's just a different perspective.

 

OK, I experimented with this already- not that i am depressed, but I am sick (nasty fluey thing). I have been having trouble sleeping. So 2 nights ago I got to sleep around 11 and woke up at 4am with a strong dream. I decided to just get up rather than stay in bed and doze. It was very lovely and I had a walk and got things done, went to the beach with dh and had another walk and swim.

OK< this has nothing to do with depression but it was interesting to me that if I didn't think about how little sleep I had had, I was fine and had plenty of energy for the day, and had a really lovely day. I think I get sleep- obsessed.

:iagree:

 

For me, personally, rather than getting all stressed about how little sleep I got or getting all sleep-obsessed, I always do better when I just get up and start moving, rather than stay in bed and try to fall asleep again. I love being up before sunrise. My dad is the same way. He often says that he has no recollection in his adult life of waking up after sunrise. He's super-healthy and I have never, ever seen him be depressed. His solution for all of life's stresses: prayer, walking, swimming in the ocean, and he eats very healthy. He's almost 81. Now, of course, this is not the cure-all for everyone. But I just thought to share. I wish I could be as disciplined and good as he is. I don't always succeed. I just try. Keep falling down and have to keep getting up again ...

 

I don't think this article is really about sleep deprivation. Maybe I'm wrong and need to go and re-read it :confused: :lol:. I think it's more about not being sleep-obsessed and not stressing about how little sleep we got, etc. Just listening to our own bodies - going to bed when we're tired and getting up naturally without an alarm clock. This is what I do for the most part. I hardly ever use an alarm clock.

 

Counting hours of sleep and thinking about how much sleep you have or haven't had is a big part of the problem. When I start obsessing over sleep, I don't feel as well as when I just go with whatever my body seems to need.

At times, I find myself awake at 4 a.m. when I don't want to be. I either get up and do something or lay in bed just letting my thoughts wander on pleasant things. The one thing I don't do anymore is think about how I should be asleep and try to get back to sleep. That makes for a tense uncomfortable day.

When I start focusing on sleep, I don't have good sleep at all. Going with the flow and adjusting my bed time as needed works great for me.

:iagree: :iagree: :iagree:

This post is gold. Love your wisdom on this. This is basically what dh's aunt told me on a recent vacation. Dh and I would be wide awake at all hours. Rather than stressing about how little sleep we were getting and getting ourselves all worked up about it, we just went with the flow, popped a DVD into the laptop, and had a blast :D. No sense in getting all down about it. By 6 AM, while the dc were sleeping, we headed to a coffee place and had such a sweet time.