1st grade- do spelling, if haven't learned to read yet?

[missesd]

SWB breaks LA down into reading, grammar, spelling and writing. We are doing FLL, but with starting late, the holidays, sicknesses, we are not 1/2 way through the book. The suggestion from SWB is to not start a reading program until your are 1/2 way through FLL. So she has not learned to read yet. But I noticed her handwriting needed some work, so I ordered A Reason for Handwriting. Also, her brother needed spelling, so I also ordered A Reason for Spelling. At te same time I ordered her one for this year and next. Now last year, her brother did spelling before he learned to read, and it wasn't a problem, but we were using a different program then. However, I will say he was a "natural reader" and taught himself how to read by learning the States. Now the spelling may have helped, but I'll never know... LOL So should I hold off on spelling, or go ahead??

[snickelfritz]

With older dd, I used Kindy and 1st to focus on learning to read, basic handwriting, and math. I added FLL and WWE about halfway through 1st and spelling in 2nd.

 

The suggestion from SWB is to not start a reading program until your are 1/2 way through FLL. So she has not learned to read yet

I thought FLL 1/2 was intended for 1st and 2nd...... but WTM and OPGTR recommend starting phonics earlier....as in pre-k/kindy????????????

 

Now that I've switched to All About Spelling, I think I could have started it earlier. So, my younger dd is doing AAS along with her phonics.

 

It comes down to time, but I think learning to read is the priority.

Edited March 22, 2011 by snickelfritz

[....]

This is just me...but I always concentrate on reading at that stage.

 

If I were in your shoes, I would start teaching her to read now - and I'm sure you can continue with FLL at the same time. I wouldn't worry about handwriting right now (I don't push handwriting until 1st grade). I also wouldn't start spelling until she's reading at least CVC words.

 

I thought FLL was supposed to start in 1st grade, too! Maybe I'm wrong... I haven't used FLL, but we use WWE.

 

Edited to say: Is this the 1st grader? Or your Pre-K child?

[jennyt]

I started Spelling Workout A with my last 2 at the beginning of 1st grade. Neither of them had much fluency in reading until 2nd grade but they quickly learnt the pattern of exercises in SWA and worked quite independently. I would even test them each week once they got passed the purely phonics lessons at the start. I definitely think it helped with reading and writing - I was told my ds7 would be very slow to read and write when he was loosely diagnosed with auditory processing disorder when he was 5. He has just turned 7 and is reading anything he wants to and writing his own science reports and narrations with only limited help. I think spelling challenges them but gives them a quantifiable task whereas learning to read is just an enormous progressive learning curve. With the occasional bit of prompting from me, I found spelling to be an opportunity for "success" for both of them.

[Down_the_Rabbit_Hole]

Usually a spelling curriculum has phonics with it. What I mean is a list of word are following a specific phonics rule or rules. So while they are learning some words they are re-enforcing the phonics rules helping with reading. Depending on the child this could be beneficial in helping them read.

[Jmac]

My son absolutely hates reading and all about spelling has been how we taught him to read. He does really well with spelling rules. I am pretty sure my daughter, who is a natural reader, will be opposite.

[RobinF]

I have always started OPG in K, FLL in 1st and spelling in second grade. I read somewhere (maybe SWB) that you should start spelling until they understand at least some of the phonics rules.

 

Oh and while we work on handwriting it isn't our main focus. I believe that boys especially can learn to read well before they can write clearly.

[Guest RecumbentHeart]

hmm .. all I know is that for my DS5, learning to read and learning to spell have been inseparable (I don't even know how to separate them) but perhaps that's because he took an early interest in writing? He wrote/writes to learn and reinforce his phonics lessons (and to be clear, he started that long before I knew anything about The Writing Road to Reading or Spell to Write and Read). So, I am one whose limited personal experience leaves her totally at a loss (so far) to understand the idea that spelling is a completely separate and different skill to reading and it's teaching needs to be postponed until after a certain level of reading is established. That being the case, I wouldn't personally even think about it being a problem to approach spelling before reading is established to some degree and although I am inexperienced, greater women than I have successfully taught reading through spelling so ...*shrugs* I think you know, or at least will know after trying, if adding it is a help or a hindrance your individual child.

[boscopup]

I think it depends on what method of spelling you're planning to do. If you're planning to do SWO or another spelling program that doesn't integrate phonics/rules/etc. a lot, I'd probably wait until you have phonics well covered. If you're planning to do AAS or any of the Spalding/Spalding-like methods, you could start now. In fact, the Spalding type methods specifically teach reading through spelling. AAS does not, but it can be used before reading is completely taught.

[Guest RecumbentHeart]

I think it depends on what method of spelling you're planning to do. If you're planning to do SWO or another spelling program that doesn't integrate phonics/rules/etc. a lot, I'd probably wait until you have phonics well covered. If you're planning to do AAS or any of the Spalding/Spalding-like methods, you could start now. In fact, the Spalding type methods specifically teach reading through spelling. AAS does not, but it can be used before reading is completely taught.

 

Ah .. now I think I see .. I've never seen other spelling programs .. this makes sense.

[Miss Tick]

We focused on reading in the pre-K, K years and my son picked it up quickly. His twin, however was much slower, but got the basics. I started Spelling Workout A in the second half of K and found it was a nice complement to our phonics program reinforcing the rules in a different format. We just do one lesson a week and then review the spelling on different days. It seems like reading and spelling are different (closely related) skills.

 

Susan

[ElizabethB]

I have noticed that adding spelling in with the phonics they are doing actually makes the phonics go faster...you get things in your brain better when you write them out. You can do a mix of oral spelling and "written" spelling with magnetic letters for a student who does not yet write well. I do both the reading and spelling portion from the white board, my children do not enjoy writing on paper at that age but do fine on the white board.

 

One spelled word is equal to about 8 or 10 words read in terms of getting the info to sink into the brain in my experience.

[MyLittleWonders]

I agree that it depends on what spelling program you want to use. We use All About Spelling around here and started before they were reading as the spelling rules helped to teach them to read as well. But, if ti's more of a "spelling list" with a test on Friday program, I would probably wait.

[Critterfixer]

I am using OPGTR in first grade, FLL, and McGuffey Pictorial Primer for additional reading. We are also almost all the way through Spelling Workout A (we are on lesson 36 today, actually:001_smile:) Twin DS7A is almost half-way through OPGTR and DS7B is still struggling with blending sounds, so we are only about one-quarter of the way through.

But I'm still doing spelling worksheets. And DS7B can read the words for the most part. I considered not doing spelling because they were so far back in phonics until I started to notice that both of them could read a word (even difficult ones) if they spelled it first. It seems strange, but both of them are literally about one lesson apart in the Primer for reading. Maybe it is something with twins. My experience is similar to that of Susan C.

 

I also like to write the words on the whiteboard from Spelling Workout A about once a week and have both boys copy them to paper from the board. They don't like that much, but I've found it helps them to focus on what they see, and it gives me a nice way to make sure they are seeing the words correctly.

[TJinLOCA]

My kids all picked up spelling naturally as they learned to read ... personally, I think I would find spelling pretty tedious if I wasn't reading yet!

 

My youngest son learned to read using "Phonics Pathways" and we loved it. It had quick, easy lessons, and the phonics rules really helped build a wonderful foundation for spelling.

[FairProspects]

I have noticed that adding spelling in with the phonics they are doing actually makes the phonics go faster...you get things in your brain better when you write them out. You can do a mix of oral spelling and "written" spelling with magnetic letters for a student who does not yet write well. I do both the reading and spelling portion from the white board, my children do not enjoy writing on paper at that age but do fine on the white board.

 

One spelled word is equal to about 8 or 10 words read in terms of getting the info to sink into the brain in my experience.

 

This has been our experience as well, but the tricky part has been finding a spelling program to line up with the phonics. We had been using SRA Phonics 1 for this, but level 2 does not seem to keep pace after long vowels, and now we are way beyond AAS 1. Ugh, I don't know what to do about spelling either.

[MyLittleWonders]

This has been our experience as well, but the tricky part has been finding a spelling program to line up with the phonics. We had been using SRA Phonics 1 for this, but level 2 does not seem to keep pace after long vowels, and now we are way beyond AAS 1. Ugh, I don't know what to do about spelling either.

I actually didn't worry too much about the spelling (AAS) and phonics (Hooked on Phonics and Phonics Pathways) lined up. Some times they did and some times they didn't. Often what we learned in spelling would reinforce something we had already learned in phonics (especially when we moved onto two syllable words and multisyllabic words). AAS 1 is an incredible foundation - it teaches rules that continue to come up even now in Level 5. IMHO, if you are looking for a quality spelling program to reinforce phonics learning, AAS is the way to go. Both it and a good phonics program (like PP or such) tackle the same issue from two different sides, ultimately resulting in kids that can read and spell pretty much anything they want by the time they are done.

[missesd]

Edited to say: Is this the 1st grader? Or your Pre-K child?

 

This is for my first grader, sorry I should have specified :blushing:

[Koerarmoca]

hmm .. all I know is that for my DS5, learning to read and learning to spell have been inseparable (I don't even know how to separate them).

 

:iagree:

 

dd5 loves to spell. She is always asking me to ask her how to spell. Mom ask me how to spell dog, cat, this, mom, her sisters names etc. Some of it has been picked up in reading skills, some from phonics skills, some purely memorization etc.

 

my 1st grade spelling plan (so far) is to just make lists of words we come across in FIAR that we want to add to her spelling/reading skills. As much as she loves spelling though I may add a more formal spelling curriculum later in the year when phonics are more solid.

[missesd]

I think spelling challenges them but gives them a quantifiable task whereas learning to read is just an enormous progressive learning curve. With the occasional bit of prompting from me, I found spelling to be an opportunity for "success" for both of them.

 

Interesting... thank you.

 

Do you mean start a spelling program?

 

Yes :)

 

Usually a spelling curriculum has phonics with it. What I mean is a list of word are following a specific phonics rule or rules. So while they are learning some words they are re-enforcing the phonics rules helping with reading. Depending on the child this could be beneficial in helping them read.

 

Yes, mine does. It's A Reason For Spelling. You can see sample pages on their website.

 

I have always started OPG in K, FLL in 1st and spelling in second grade. I read somewhere (maybe SWB) that you should start spelling until they understand at least some of the phonics rules.

 

Oh and while we work on handwriting it isn't our main focus. I believe that boys especially can learn to read well before they can write clearly.

 

Well, I also read the WWE book for the parent last night. And from what I can see, SWB intended the FLL 1 to be started in 1st grade. 1/2 way through, you start OPGTR. Once the child can read 4 letter words then you can start WWE. I think it's a method. I didn't understand until I was reading WWE, then I could see the path she was weaving.

 

hmm .. all I know is that for my DS5, learning to read and learning to spell have been inseparable (I don't even know how to separate them) but perhaps that's because he took an early interest in writing? He wrote/writes to learn and reinforce his phonics lessons (and to be clear, he started that long before I knew anything about The Writing Road to Reading or Spell to Write and Read). So, I am one whose limited personal experience leaves her totally at a loss (so far) to understand the idea that spelling is a completely separate and different skill to reading and it's teaching needs to be postponed until after a certain level of reading is established. That being the case, I wouldn't personally even think about it being a problem to approach spelling before reading is established to some degree and although I am inexperienced, greater women than I have successfully taught reading through spelling so ...*shrugs* I think you know, or at least will know after trying, if adding it is a help or a hindrance your individual child.

 

Well she *loves* to write, so this has been very helpful :) Thank you!!

[missesd]

:iagree:

 

dd5 loves to spell. She is always asking me to ask her how to spell. Mom ask me how to spell dog, cat, this, mom, her sisters names etc. Some of it has been picked up in reading skills, some from phonics skills, some purely memorization etc.

 

Yes, this is my DD too :)

[missesd]

Well I think I am going to use it, so thank you all for your input. One of the things I think might help her when we get to the spelling portion, is to put a small-ish corkboard at her level and then put her spelling words for that week up in little stars, hearts, etc... and go over them every day. Kind of like sight words.

 

I think I should probably say, that she did do kindergarten last year. But we were still using Homeschool Learning Network online. It's good in theory, they've got some great unit studies and stuff, but it is not a good solid stand alone program. I knew wen they got older, I'd need to add math. But honestly for kindergarten the little stories I'd read, and the narration questions seemed to be enough. With my older son when he was in 1st grade, he had spelling words... it may have actually helped him to read, I don't know. So we are starting her in 1st grade this year with a whole new program, a whole new way of teaching, and that's why she isn't further in pre-reading, phonics, and the like :blush:

[snickelfritz]

Well, I also read the WWE book for the parent last night. And from what I can see, SWB intended the FLL 1 to be started in 1st grade. 1/2 way through, you start OPGTR. Once the child can read 4 letter words then you can start WWE.

 

This is what I think is incorrect. OPGTR is intended to be started earlier than 1st, BEFORE the other components. She pushes to get them started reading as the foundation for everything else and that's why she made a program that doesn't require handwriting. Many people start this for pre-k and, even more, for K. Then, at certain points of OPGTR, you start FLL and spelling. Phonics is the guiding point of starting other things, not FLL.

Edited March 22, 2011 by snickelfritz

[boscopup]

Well, I also read the WWE book for the parent last night. And from what I can see, SWB intended the FLL 1 to be started in 1st grade. 1/2 way through, you start OPGTR.

 

Er... I think you have that backward... Halfway through OPGTR, you start FLL1, I believe? In the WTM book, it says to aim to start first grade work when you've gone through most of OPGTR, which was started in K. FLL1 is designed for first grade (though many use it for K, as it is so very gentle).

 

I couldn't find in the WWE book where it even discusses this, but I did find some other info I'd missed last time I read it, so it wasn't a useless search. :D

[missesd]

This is what I think is incorrect. OPGTR is intended to be started earlier than 1st, BEFORE the other components. She pushes to get them started reading as the foundation for everything else and that's why she made a program that doesn't require handwriting. Many people start this for pre-k and, even more, for K. Then, at certain points of OPGTR, you start FLL and spelling. Phonics is the guiding point of starting other things, not FLL.

 

"This book covers grammar skills for grade 1. You will also need to provide a phonics/spelling program, formal penmanship instruction, and a writing program. The Ordinary Parent's Guide to Teaching Reading (phonics), published by Peace Hill Press, is designed to be completely compatible with First Language Lessons."

 

Now I can not for the life remember where I read that FLL should b started 1/2 way through *before* starting reading, but I did... somewhere. It may have been in TWTM, I am not sure. But by the above quote taken from the Introduction in FLL would lead one to believe FLL and OPGTR should be used intermittently. At least, that is my belief.

[boscopup]

No, they can be used together, but OPGTR spans more than one grade level. So yes, they are used at the same time, but OPGTR is used first, then FLL partyway through (when you get to first grade level work). I know WTM and OPGTR both say this.

[snickelfritz]

They are intended to be used together, though not started at the same time.

 

"Sometime around age 4 or 5, most children are ready to start reading. Sit down with a simple primer that teaches phonics......Ordinary Parents Guide.". Pg 33 of WTM.

 

 

" We recommend you get at least halfway through OPGTR primer before beginning spelling.". Pg 52. WTM

 

"You'll begin oral grammar in first grade,". Pg 54 WTM

 

ETA. I have the edition copyright 2004, so page numbers may vary.

[missesd]

No, they can be used together, but OPGTR spans more than one grade level. So yes, they are used at the same time, but OPGTR is used first, then FLL partyway through (when you get to first grade level work). I know WTM and OPGTR both say this.

 

Well I just got OPGTR and haven't had a chance to read the intro part to parents yet. I had 100 EZ Lessons, and had planned on using that. As for WTM, I don't know, while I did read it it was months ago, and use it now primarily for checking certain curriculum suggestions, and "how to do this" sections for the older kids.

[missesd]

They are intended to be used together, though not started at the same time.

 

"Sometime around age 4 or 5, most children are ready to start reading. Sit down with a simple primer that teaches phonics......Ordinary Parents Guide.". Pg 33 of WTM.

 

 

" We recommend you get at least halfway through OPGTR primer before beginning spelling.". Pg 52. WTM

 

"You'll begin oral grammar in first grade,". Pg 54 WTM

 

Well it looks like I am mixing that all up!! LOL Can't have it all, I suppose. We started WTM later then 4 or 5 for her, and I don't want to delay everything by a year or two when she is ready *now*, so we will just have to see what happens ;)

[iona]

Opgtr was intended to be started first (unless you are using it for remediation). In the WTM reading/phonics instruction is recommended as early as the child is ready (for many children in prek/k) with the goal of them reading well when they start first grade. Opgtr was developed to be used by young children who may not have the fine motor skills to be writing, but could learn to read.

 

Fll can overlap with opgtr, but was designed to overlap on the tail end.

 

Other programs are designed to teach phonics, spelling and writing at the same time. The way things are separated out in WTM allow for more adaptability to the child's readiness in different areas. (can learn to read, but struggles with writing).

[Amie]

They are intended to be used together, though not started at the same time.

 

"Sometime around age 4 or 5, most children are ready to start reading. Sit down with a simple primer that teaches phonics......Ordinary Parents Guide.". Pg 33 of WTM.

 

 

" We recommend you get at least halfway through OPGTR primer before beginning spelling.". Pg 52. WTM

 

"You'll begin oral grammar in first grade,". Pg 54 WTM

 

ETA. I have the edition copyright 2004, so page numbers may vary.

 

Exactly. Also, there was a FAQ on the Peace Hill Press website (before they re-did it--I can't find it now) that said you may want to begin FLL1 once you get to about lesson 140 (I think?) in OPGTR to make copywork, etc. easier--perhaps this is the part you have mixed up.

I would go ahead and make reading top priority for now.

[boscopup]

You definitely don't have to delay things by a year! Just start where you are, work at her pace. You don't need to be in a certain spot in OPGTR to do FLL or vice versa. They aren't integrated like that. She's basically saying to get them started reading, then when they're ready for first grade work, do FLL as a first grade grammar program. Hopefully that makes sense.

 

SWB's recommendations are just basic guidelines of how to get started. They are NOT an exact formula.