s/o placing limits on potential college majors

[Jane in NC]

What do readers of this board view as "hobby" degrees? How do you determine if a major is "employable" in, say, a decade from now? What do you do if your student is not interested in those fields which you feel suit his or her personality (and are practical)?

 

My son wants to be an archaeologist. I have had several people ask me, "So what will he do to support himself?" Contract archaeology is a young person's field, I explain. Lucrative, but demanding in terms of time spent on the road. Maybe he'll do that; I suspect that he'll eventually attend grad school. I do not see this as a "hobby" degree, but apparently some people do. I am fine with this field of study, but I suspect that not all parents would be.

[Melinda in VT]

Despite my answer to the original thread, I am not sure there are hobby degrees so much as there are impractical students. :lol:

 

I do see value in a liberal arts education above and beyond preparing one for a job. I just don't value it quite as much as the people who set the tuition at many schools these days. :tongue_smilie:

 

I think the important things are for students to have a strong internal commitment to being self-supporting as adults and a realistic view of the current and upcoming employment situation. The major chosen is less important.

 

I think many students get in trouble when people tell them things that used to be true ("All you need is a college degree and you'll get a job. It doesn't matter what your degree is in.") or when they don't realize they are heading into a field that is glutted with graduates who aren't finding work. I also think students should match their debt accumulation to their probable future earnings. And they should consider if their chosen career and their chosen lifestyle/family size match.

[jld]

Whatever your son studies, he will be fine, Jane. His parents can back him up, no matter what. Other families here are in a similar situation. Really, whatever their children want to do, everything will be fine.

 

The problem is when middle and lower class kids want to do these majors, too, and also expect to find jobs that will let them pay back their loans. Really, I don't know that all students even think ahead far enough to think about how easily they are going to pay back their loans. I think a lot of them just think about what they want to do now, and that theatre is what they enjoy most, so why not that. And they've been brought up with the strong belief that they must go to college, and so this seems like the best way to combine this need with their interest. Except that, of course, the economy has changed, and no one really knows what things will be like going forward. Even though we've had a real change in the economy, many people still don't seem to realize how that changes everything we've grown up believing is true. Kids are burying themselves in debt that they may never get out of. They're deep in by the time they're 22. What a difficult way to start adult life.

 

Our ds12 is the one who talks about studying drama or writing, and I'm not thrilled about it, but will eventually accept it, as long as I'm paying about what I'm expecting to pay to the local public branch in two years when dd goes for a bio/comp sci degree. I wouldn't even consider paying more than that for a degree in the humanities or even social sciences. I'm totally with you on business degrees being a dime a dozen. I think STEM is the way to go, and the main reason to go to college.

 

I know this all sounds very, very conservative, and I really hope I'm overly pessimistic about all of it, and that time shows that I'm completely wrong. My children have strong enough personalities that they are not just going to let me make these major decisions for them.;) But I am trying to let them know, loudly and clearly, that we simply cannot support them all their lives, and college is their chance, or their best hope, at least, to escape a life of minimum wage work.

[Colleen in NS]

What do readers of this board view as "hobby" degrees? How do you determine if a major is "employable" in, say, a decade from now? What do you do if your student is not interested in those fields which you feel suit his or her personality (and are practical)?

 

My son wants to be an archaeologist. I have had several people ask me, "So what will he do to support himself?" Contract archaeology is a young person's field, I explain. Lucrative, but demanding in terms of time spent on the road. Maybe he'll do that; I suspect that he'll eventually attend grad school. I do not see this as a "hobby" degree, but apparently some people do. I am fine with this field of study, but I suspect that not all parents would be.

 

:lurk5:

 

I've always wondered how people determine these things.

[mcconnellboys]

I hear most around me saying that liberal arts degrees of any kind do not lead to jobs. Most seem to assume that those majoring in liberal arts fields will go on to law school, etc. But why? There has been a huge glut of lawyers in the marketplace here for years! I know tons of adult "lawyers", trained, bars passed, licensed, who have never practiced or never made any money at lawyering....

 

Business seems to be thought of as good, but then lots of those kids end up in retail management, lower end bank jobs, etc. Is a degree really needed for that now days? It certainly wasn't when I was younger....

 

Health related fields. Well I know that doctoring and nursing jobs *may* still be in demand, but I've heard lately that there's even a glut of pharmacy grads. And I was told about three years ago that tech jobs, such as radiology, are now going offshore to be read overnight in places like Malaysia. Will there really still be plenty of tech jobs in the next 4-8 years? I've been told that there's a HUGE glut of forensics trained grads in the marketplace, since teachers started pushing that area of study about 10 years ago....

 

The most hopeful thing I've read about in the past 5 years is that we are in need of, and will continue to need, trades people such as electricians, plumbers, and other skilled tradesmen.

 

If we don't bring more jobs back onshore here, I'm not sure what sorts of jobs we'll have here in the U.S. for our kids when they grow up. I think there will still continue to be a need for engineers of various sorts (even if they're traveling overseas regularly) and I think that computer tech jobs *may* still continue to hold strong (even though more and more is going off shore, currently). But if you don't have a math and science kid, I'm not sure what is left.....

 

I know a few kids who are majoring in archaeology now.... I tend to think there will be jobs for them because so many are currently directing kids NOT to go for liberal arts majors.... If that changes, then there might be a glut in that area again....

[creekland]

I know for us, we've been looking at "jobs" since our boys were in middle school. Many times when we see a job on TV (real shows, not "fun" shows) or in real life we'll discuss it. Does the park ranger need a degree? Would you want to feed those pigs every day as a job? Hey look, that's the 4th adcom (out of 4 college visits) we've met that graduated with a ______ degree. My boys know if they look for a job with these types of degrees, they might want a back up plan. Some people get jobs in them, but it's really, really competitive.

 

On a more broad note...

 

Since I work in our local public high school I often see returning students who share their experiences with degrees/jobs. Sometimes my boys are with me and sometimes I relate what happened to my boys.

 

When my boys have an idea of a field they are interested in, I have them talk with people working in that field. Part of what they ask is, "how did you get here."

 

A few VERY common trends I've heard (not exclusive, but common) are:

 

1: Be the best you can be. In high school, get the best grades you can and the best scores you can. It's worth it to put time into studying for college entrance tests. Be a good student and have a life outside of school that you enjoy as well. Don't be lazy and "ho hum."

 

2: In college, ditto. In your clubs and classes be gung ho (and enjoy it in the process). Don't be lazy and don't get hooked on computer games or the internet in general. Be known by your professors if you can. Get involved. Expand your mind and your opportunities.

 

3: Some majors are far easier to get jobs in than others, but for any job, those with the best recommendations and best foundation in learning will almost always get first options. In that light, don't go to a school that isn't going to give you a good foundation or good recommendations for that first job. Know who is in your chosen department and be sure they have connections. Be sure they are putting a fair number of graduates into their field. Then know that "fair number" are going to be those who were competitively at that top - maybe not 100% in grades, but as the overall package. Be in that group or don't expect a job using your degree. Don't complain. Be helpful. Be someone others want to be around. Then be (or learn) the knowledge associated with your field.

 

4: Double major in business if you can. (Yes, this is something that has been repeated often.) Almost all fields deal with business and it sure helps to know what is going on. Plus, it makes life easier if you ever want to start your own business or need to fall back on something other than your main degree. It can make the difference between you and another applicant if you have extra skills. In this economy, many students have wanted or needed to try to start their own business of some sort.

 

5: Don't get into so much debt that you are chained down or need more than you can make. Some debt is fine and necessary for many people in our area where incomes are low. I've never seen anyone with oodles of debt who has thought it was worth it (yet). I've seen several come back with $50,000 or less in debt who have said it was well worth it, but only if they met #'s 1 - 3 above.

 

6: Who you are in high school is often who you are in college. If you aren't motivated in high school, you often aren't motivated in college either. Just "graduating" (what we call ho-hum students) will give you the degree you need to apply, but it will never give you the edge to be really competitive for those jobs. Whether you get a job or not will depend on how competitive the job market is. That said, I HAVE seen some students who woke up in college or after being on "a" job (or not) for a couple of years. Sometimes "how life works" clicks. Every one of those has told me (and my boys when they've been around) to be certain to do #1. It's been very helpful for my boys to hear this from been there, done that people.

 

7: If you aren't motivated for academics in the above fashion, consider what motivates you and see if a different path might be better (trade schools or trades in general are NOT horrid and can lead to great jobs). Different strokes for different folks.

 

7a: Some people ARE perfectly happy working at a fast food joint or in retail sales or feeding pigs or similar. We need those people too and they aren't any less of a person just because they choose a different path for their lives. Don't saddle them with college debt. A square peg won't fit in a round hole. Instead, let them be who they want to be. We NEED all sorts of workers on our planet.

 

In a more competitive job market overall, it is tough, but being "ho hum" isn't likely to work well. Being top of your top is. Then be honest about how many jobs are available for certain degrees and have back ups in case you don't make top of your top.

[Beth in OH]

I have 3 dds who are pursuing degrees in the arts. My oldest, who is a theater major, had a disastrous freshman year at CC. She just. couldn't. make. herself. care. enough. to. do. the. work. Ultimately, she was diagnosed as having ADHD (there were other things going on--not just school problems). As part of that journey, we encouraged her to pursue something she loves--high interest makes it possible for her to succeed. Theater is it. When she's taking theater courses, which to her have a purpose, she can handle the "boring" stuff sprinkled in. At this point, she has transferred to a quality state U and is succeeding. For this child, a college degree in theater has been about personal development and has been necessary in order for her to discover a path into adulthood.

 

We have told dd not to shortchange her dream out of fear of earning a living. She simply has to think of it in terms of finding a way to earn a living-- search out opportunities and such. If a type of "vocational" training is in order (her interest would be hair stylist) so that she can support herself, so be it. Knowing that she could figure out the "living" part as she goes along was very freeing to dd.

 

My other two dds are musicians. They already expect to cobble together a living. I really have no doubts that they will be able to support themselves financially, although I worry a bit about healthcare (a whole 'nother story).

 

Perhaps I'm allowing my dds to live out my own "do-over". I had a degree in business in undergrad and became a lawyer. After 20 years as a full-time mom, I'm just as unemployable as the next person in this economy. I wouldn't change my choices at all--even regarding my major--, but I didn't want my dds to feel that choosing a major based on return on investment was the only way to go.

 

 

Beth

[memphispeg]

My youngest dd has a discreet dream that can be pursued at the right college. We are looking v. carefully at schools right now. I would like her to be able to explore the dream at several academic/vocational levels when she is in school and over the summers. My older dd is still messing with her major....completing a double major may be possible but, it all depends on how the courses fall in her last 2 years. She is still actively involved in her hobby - dance. Somehow she is determined to keep it in her life, no matter what. She cannot major in it at her school (I am v. happy that she cannot.). But, I'm sure it will come in useful somehow.....

PS - I find that as I grow older, I am less able to predict the future. I am letting the dds decide what to do on their own.

[K-FL]

What do readers of this board view as "hobby" degrees?

 

Personally, a path that doesn't require the degree to succeed. The arts in general are based on your performance and resume. Not on whether you have a degree. I have a performance degree & you can audition for every play/choir/band w/o being a perf. major. Depending on the school, the plumb parts are going to the majors, but not if you're the best they've seen for the part. It's all about the show, not the ego.

 

If you'd like to teach those arts, you need the degree in arts ed, not performance. Even non-performance (not including the tech fields) work at a large theater/symphony may require a degree.

 

My cousin is a head-hunter for medical sales, etc. 99% of the employers they hire for require a degree--preferably in some type of medical field. No, to sale you don't need a degree (it's a talent with skills IMO), but they won't even look at your resume if you don't have the degree.

[Hoggirl]

I found your post to be VERY helpful. I am going to share it with my ds.

[asta]

I don't think "hobbies" should ever be overlooked.

 

Kid can make more money playing his pipes than he can with a BS in physics. A single wedding (the wedding, not the reception) runs $500-$2000 depending on what town you're in on the level at which he plays.

 

His old instructor doubled his income as a high level computer programmer every year via his piping.

 

Needless to say, wherever kid goes to uni, there has to be a strong piping community, lest he inadvertently "slack off". Kids who do acting, singing, dancing etc., can always audition for local commercials, productions, et al to supplement their income as well.

 

And, as kid says "I can feed myself by playing at a pub."

 

That probably doesn't help...

 

 

a

[distancia]

A) ... The most hopeful thing I've read about in the past 5 years is that we are in need of, and will continue to need, trades people such as electricians, plumbers, and other skilled tradesmen.

 

B) ... I know a few kids who are majoring in archaeology now.... I tend to think there will be jobs for them because so many are currently directing kids NOT to go for liberal arts majors.... If that changes, then there might be a glut in that area again....

 

Point A: My nephew was on a full ride scholarshp in a technical/video degree program and he QUIT college to go to jet mechanic school. He was drug free, intelligent, and motivated, so the US govenrment paid for his tuition AND his tools ($2,000 worth). There is such an incredible shortage of qualified jet mechanics in this country that we are importing them from all over the world--NPR radio did a big series on this topic recently. Same with plumbers, air conditioning repairman, etc.

 

Point B: I believe the bad economy is deterring all but the most serious students away from liberal arts degrees. IMHO the serious, academic types are the ones who will go on to grad school and they will fare well in higher education. My dd is one of those: at 18 she knows already she will need to go to grad school to pursue an advanced degree in biological anthropology. She is the type of person who will succeed in academia, because she has superb writing skills (almost perfect verbal and writing SAT scores).

 

But those naive college freshman who babble on and on about going to law school or med school, yet maintain C averages and have SAT scores hovering in the 500 range...what lies in store for them, I wonder?

Edited March 15, 2011 by distancia

[creekland]

But those naive college freshman who babble on and on about going to law school or med school, yet maintain C averages and have SAT scores hovering in the 500 range...what lies in store for them, I wonder?

 

By college freshman year, advisers should have pointed reality out to them. Many will change their majors and find something they are more suited for. This happens in many majors.

 

It would be helpful if, when students maintain a B or C average in high school and think they are going into a competitive field, someone were to explain reality to them. In our high school I saw a very lower level student (as in, uses 8th grade or lower texts in 11th grade) do his "post graduating" planner as if he were going to Notre Dame. The fact that he's getting a high enough GPA (based on lower level classes) made him think he would do ok. Once he gets SAT scores he'll be in for a rude awakening. I understand not wanting to place limits on students, but by 11th grade, that bridge has already been burned and someone (guidance counselor?) ought to gently redirect him to something more suitable. He's still in classes trying to learn pre-algebra and parts of speech.

[Sebastian (a lady)]

By college freshman year, advisers should have pointed reality out to them. Many will change their majors and find something they are more suited for. This happens in many majors.

 

It would be helpful if, when students maintain a B or C average in high school and think they are going into a competitive field, someone were to explain reality to them. In our high school I saw a very lower level student (as in, uses 8th grade or lower texts in 11th grade) do his "post graduating" planner as if he were going to Notre Dame. The fact that he's getting a high enough GPA (based on lower level classes) made him think he would do ok. Once he gets SAT scores he'll be in for a rude awakening. I understand not wanting to place limits on students, but by 11th grade, that bridge has already been burned and someone (guidance counselor?) ought to gently redirect him to something more suitable. He's still in classes trying to learn pre-algebra and parts of speech.

 

I do interviews for the Naval Academy. The numbers are somewhere around 15,000 applicants for about 1200 admissions slots. So you might say that it is competitive.

 

I had two students last year who were in no way prepared to attend. Not enough math and science and low grades in what they were taking. One seemed to only be interviewing because his parents had made him apply. The other seemed genuinely upset when I indicated that with C's and D's in chemistry and calculus, his chances of being accepted were very low.

 

WHERE WERE THE GUIDANCE COUNSELORS??? These weren't homeschool kids, so it wasn't a matter of parents' not understanding the system. These were kids in a high school that offered college prep courses (plenty of AP) and had mostly two parent families.

 

But the guidance counselors couldn't have wrestled their way out of a wet paper bag. They didn't provide paperwork to colleges in a timely manner and certainly weren't advising students on what options were out there (either in a dream big way or a be realistic way). They were pretty much just collecting a paycheck.

 

And sadly, I think the situation was getting worse when we moved. The high school had gone from having a college fair with teachers from the middle school, high school and local campuses (the teachers tallked about their alma mater) to having a closed college fair with only the high school teachers presenting. Mind you this was on an overseas base with many active duty and spouses that had not only college degrees, but advanced degrees and professional certifications. But inviting community members was too hard. (Gads, it still ticks me off and I've been gone for several months.) :rant:

[creekland]

I think there's been too much emphasis on "anyone can do anything" that it has become taboo to be truthful in public schools. I recall a parent being upset that their son was told he wasn't likely to make it in the Air Force as a pilot (due to low math grades in lower classes). They insisted he be moved up to a higher class so he "had a chance." The poor chap failed the class and was miserable.

 

People are designed for different things. Give credit to God or evolution - it doesn't matter - the truth is different people are designed for different niches, and in my mind, should be realistic about it by the time they reach mid high-school (until then, brains are really maturing and changing). After mid high school, some bridges are burned. While a destination can possibly be reached (pending destination), another route will have to be chosen.

 

But we've strayed a bit from the original topic.