MLA format question (in AAW)

[8filltheheart]

In AAW, every line after a long quote is indented like a new paragraph. At first I thought it was just in a couple examples, but we looked through the book today and it is every single paper after every long quote. (ETA: it is the same way in Essay Voyage as well.)

 

I don't believe that is accurate, but what do I know? Is it normal to indent like a new paragraph the first line after a long quote? Or do you only indent for a new paragraph?

 

Thank you! (MLA is my nemesis!)

Edited February 10, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart

[8filltheheart]

I think I might have found an answer to my question. It was difficult locating one b/c everything refers to the quote itself, not the next line following the quote. From looking at the example on this pg, it looks as though you continue your paragraph without indenting.

 

http://www.docstyles.com/mlacrib.htm

 

Found at better example at Purdue Owl. I missed this example the first time. http://owl.english.purdue.edu/media/pdf/20090701095636_747.pdf

 

(I need a teacher standing and tapping its foot smilie. I am extremely aggrevated by the magnitude of this error. I pulled out AAW level 2 and it has the first line indented in every paper as well.)

Edited February 10, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart

[swimmermom3]

Am I blind? I can see the examples, but is there a written rule? An explanation? I want you to know, Eight, that this is irking me because I don't have an answer but I do have three AAW texts formatted the same way.:tongue_smilie:

[swimmermom3]

Dh and I were talking this over and looking at the examples in AAW. At least for the quotes we looked at, the following paragraph seemed to present a new topic which would require an indented paragraph, right? However, since we have been out of school for years, this may not help you. I am sure that I have allowed dd indented paragraphs after a long quote so I am anxious to hear some feedback.

[8filltheheart]

Dh and I were talking this over and looking at the examples in AAW. At least for the quotes we looked at, the following paragraph seemed to present a new topic which would require an indented paragraph, right? However, since we have been out of school for years, this may not help you. I am sure that I have allowed dd indented paragraphs after a long quote so I am anxious to hear some feedback.

 

Lisa,

 

That is what I thought the first couple of times I saw it. But it is like that in every single example in all 3 books. Ending a paragraph with a long quote......maybe a few examples. Ending every single paragraph in every single example with a long quote? That I find hard to accept. (I did not go through and read all the essays, but even if that were the case, I would have a problem with it. It just isn't "good form" to end your paragraph with quotes repeatedly. ;))

 

ETA: I went and pulled AAW level 2 off my shelf. Just looking at the example on the cover (not even reading it), the 2nd paragraph consists of one line, a colon, and a 7 line long quote. This is followed by a new paragraph. That "format" would never be allowed for any academic writing that I have ever seen. Quotes support your argument. They are not "the" argument. I have never seen completely unsupported long quotes written that way.

Edited February 11, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart

[QueenCat]

This site has been recommended by my Literature professor.

 

http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/747/01/

[8filltheheart]

This site has been recommended by my Literature professor.

 

http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/747/01/

 

Thank you. I use that site regularly as well. I do not know MLA format w/o constantly looking, so I visit that site quite a bit. The problem is that I own 3 books (by the same author) that show a specific format (indenting the line following a long quote). I bought the books to help teach my kids correct MLA format :toetap05: (this is the smilie I was too tired to look for last night!!) w/o having to rely on the computer or college handbooks (I own several of those as well.)

 

I went back to the Purdue site following your link and found another example:

http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/747/16/ The middle of page 5 shows that the correct format is that line following a long quote goes back to the original margin.

 

(this is the example I listed in an earlier post: http://owl.english.purdue.edu/owl/resource/747/13/ pg 6 has the correct format.)

Edited February 11, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart

[Jane in NC]

Far from the expert and I do not own AAW materials. As I understand what you are saying, the author is indenting after every quote which suggests one of two things:

 

1) he always places quotations at the end of paragraphs

 

or

 

2) he indents a paragraph in process so to speak.

 

I have never seen a rule or even a suggestion that quotations must be at the end of the paragraph. Two indentations in a single paragraph? No...

 

The OWL site at Purdue is what we inevitably used whenever an MLA question arose. I vote for OWL's interpretation of the issue and would say that option 1 above is silly and option 2 is wrong.

[8filltheheart]

and would say that option 1 above is silly and option 2 is wrong.

 

That is pretty much my interpretation but with a $100+ price tag attached. :tongue_smilie:

[Jane in NC]

That is pretty much my interpretation but with a $100+ price tag attached. :tongue_smilie:

 

Ugh. Can you contact the author to ask for an explanation (or a refund)?

[swimmermom3]

Eight, Mr. Thompson was kind enough to answer this question on the RFP home school support forum:

 

For me, it is only a question of whether or not the following paragraph is a new one. If the quotation occurs in the middle of a paragraph, then I do not indent after the quotation when I write. If the topic of the following paragraph is different, even slightly, then I indent. I do not remember writing about that in the text, but it is what I do in my own writing. In other words, the presence or absence of a quotation does nothing to alter the standard treatment of a paragraph. I am certain that there is no rule that requires you not to indent because you are following a quotation. Thanks for asking about that.

[8filltheheart]

Eight, Mr. Thompson was kind enough to answer this question on the RFP home school support forum:

 

For me, it is only a question of whether or not the following paragraph is a new one. If the quotation occurs in the middle of a paragraph, then I do not indent after the quotation when I write. If the topic of the following paragraph is different, even slightly, then I indent. I do not remember writing about that in the text, but it is what I do in my own writing. In other words, the presence or absence of a quotation does nothing to alter the standard treatment of a paragraph. I am certain that there is no rule that requires you not to indent because you are following a quotation. Thanks for asking about that.

 

That is not what I am seeing in his examples. It is a very consistent pattern: quote and indent.

 

Look at this example he has online: http://www.rfwp.com/samples/3-pages-one-glance.pdf

 

Look at the paragraphs including these 2 quotes and the separate paragraphs following them.

 

“Your father’s right,” she said. “Mockingbirds don’t do one thing but make music for us to enjoy. They don’t eat up people’s

gardens, don’t nest in corncribs, they don’t do one thing but sing their hearts out for us. That’s why it’s a sin to kill a

mockingbird.” (90)

 

 

 

 

If I were reading that paper as a teacher, I would assume that "In these lines" is meant to expand on the quote and is part of same paragraph.

 

 

quote 2:

 

 

High above us in the darkness a solitary mocker poured out his repertoire in blissful unawareness of whose tree he sat in, plunging

from the shrill kee, kee of the sunflower bird to the irascible qua-ack of a bluejay, to the sad lament of Poor Will, Poor Will,

Poor Will. (255)

 

I do not accept his argument that the next paragraph is a new paragraph and not directly linked to the quote and belonging to the previous paragraph. In this case the word "solitary" unquestioningly (in my mind!!) links this "paragraph" to the quote and preceding paragraph. If I were marking these papers, all of the indents would be marked wrong.

 

If you come across any examples in his books that I missed where this is not the pattern, would you please let me know. B/c as of right now, I have not found a single one written any other way. I find it incredibly hard to believe that all of his "student examples" in the books would be written w/o anything after the quote. It might be a problem of "too much personal voice" influencing style. Whatever it is.......I reject it.:tongue_smilie:

 

eta: I deleted his writing b/c I wasn't sure if that might violate copyrights. But.....you can follow the link and read it on the pdf if you are interested.

 

Eta #2: The more I think about it and look at the examples the way they are constructed and obviously meant to be written, the less pleased I am. I am not impressed and I certainly don't want to encourage my kids to write that way. I won't be recommending MCT anymore. That does not make me happy b/c I loved the way the poetry/vocab/and writing worked together. Prior to now, the only complaint I had were the mistakes and I personally didn't like his grammar. It really does upset me. Gosh.......bummer.

Edited February 11, 2011 by 8FillTheHeart

[Colleen in NS]

If you come across any examples in his books that I missed where this is not the pattern, would you please let me know.

 

:lurk5:

[1Togo]

From Writer's Inc.:

 

Quotations of more than four typed lines (MLA) or more than 40 words (APA) should be set off from the

 

rest of the writing by indenting each line one inch (MLA) and double-spacing the material. When quoting two

 

or more paragraphs, indent the first line of each paragraph one-fourth inch (MLA)...Do not use quotations for

 

set-off quotations.

 

MLA 7th Edition states the same thing; i.e. indent one inch, no quotation marks, double spaced, colon as intro punctuation.

[8filltheheart]

From Writer's Inc.:

 

Quotations of more than four typed lines (MLA) or more than 40 words (APA) should be set off from the

 

rest of the writing by indenting each line one inch (MLA) and double-spacing the material. When quoting two

 

or more paragraphs, indent the first line of each paragraph one-fourth inch (MLA)...Do not use quotations for

 

set-off quotations.

 

MLA 7th Edition states the same thing; i.e. indent one inch, no quotation marks, double spaced, colon as intro punctuation.

 

:confused: I'm not questioning the indentation of the quotes.

 

 

Let me give a completely absurd example:

 

 

This is my introductory sentence to my long quote that I am attempting to use to support my argument:

 

This is my long quote that is supposed to be 4 or more lines long. I am not questioning that this quote is indented and following correct MLA format b/c it is. Up to this point I am in complete agreement with how to write formally (me).

 

This is where I completely disagree with how he is teaching writing. Every single example of writing he has has this as a new paragraph. His long quotes are never supported by the writer's argument. Not only do I find that strange, when you read his papers with all of these being unique paragraphs and not connected to the quote, not only is the reading strained and the argument weakened, visually they are confusing.

 

The forum will not allow me to indent paragraphs (or if it does, I can't figure it out.) Anyway, the first line of each of the non-quoted portions above would be indented and it would be 1 paragraph with the first sentence and my long quote followed by a completely new paragraph.

[FairProspects]

FWIW, I agree with you that its wrong according to conventions, not to mention confusing, and when I was teaching high school, I would have marked it as an incorrect citation also.

[Karenciavo]

Thank you for posting this.

[Miss Marple]

I'm curious about the examples he uses. Could there have been a formatting error in the printing? Does he actually "teach" it this way or is it just that all the examples are like done with the indentation of the line following the quote?

 

I looked through ds's Guide to College Writing (Freshman Comp. text) and saw 2 examples of long quotations. One had a new indented paragraph following the long quote, and one continued at the margin (quote imbedded in paragraph). The "teaching" is that one can end a paragraph with a long quotation if there has been enough support prior to using the quotation.

 

One of the reasons I was wondering about the word-processing format is that several sites went through Microsoft Word settings to show the students how to set up the format for long quotations. I'm not particularly computer savvy so it made me wonder if this is an error in word-processing rather than teaching.

 

I certainly see your point, though, and wonder why every example would be in the same format.

[8filltheheart]

I'm curious about the examples he uses. Could there have been a formatting error in the printing? Does he actually "teach" it this way or is it just that all the examples are like done with the indentation of the line following the quote?

 

One of the reasons I was wondering about the word-processing format is that several sites went through Microsoft Word settings to show the students how to set up the format for long quotations. I'm not particularly computer savvy so it made me wonder if this is an error in word-processing rather than teaching.

 

I certainly see your point, though, and wonder why every example would be in the same format.

 

 

I actually wondered about the formatting issue. I thought I had discussed in on this forum, but I realized after reading your post I hadn't. Lisa and I pmed each other about that Word issue b/c that is what I wondered about as well. It is why she asked him the question on the RFP forum. I'm not a member of the forum, so I don't know exactly how she asked the question but his response to her question is what she posted earlier in this thread.

 

Honestly, even if it were a publishing issue, wouldn't it have been caught prior to 3 separate books being published containing it? EV's copyright is 2007; AAW 1's is 2008; AAW 2's is 2009. I would think that if they were unintentional that somewhere during those yrs that the error would have been caught?? :001_huh:

 

I'm tired of even thinking about it any more. This has consumed too much of my energy the last few days. I'm not happy with the books as I paid for and own. Whether it is a mistake or not, it is a huge error in my mind and it is wrong in my books. :tongue_smilie:

[swimmermom3]

When I returned to the RFP forum, I discovered the following two posts from Mr. Thompson:

 

 

 

I see that there is continued discussion at WTM of whether or not the paragraph after a long quotation should be indented. It is a good discussion, worth having. For me, it is the integrity of the paragraph that is important. I believe it is true that the sample papers in my writing texts almost always indent after a long quote, but there is also one, at the very beginning of Academic Writing, Volume One, that does not indent. I do not think we need to feel bound always to indent or not to indent, but we should give attention to the nature of a paragraph. Usually, I think, the text that follows a long quote is either a shift to a new idea or a discussion of the quotation. In either of those cases, that is a different purpose than the preceding paragraph, and I usually indent. If the quotation is clear enough, it can exist in the middle of a long paragraph and not be followed by an indentation--just the same as a short quotation. This is one formatting detail out of hundreds that come from MLA, and it requires a good decision by the writer. Finally, the sample papers that one sees in my writing texts are not presented as publishable, professional perfection; they are simulated student sample papers, similar to the thousands of papers I have received from middle school students and high school students. They represent various learning states. Some of them are quite accomplished, and others not. I hope that this helps to clarify my view of whether to indent after a long quotation. I think, in essence, that there is no difference in this decision between using a long quotation or a short quotation; in either case, you indent if you feel that you have changed purpose or focus, and not if you do not. Quotations do not change paragraphing rules. For a short quotation, you might continue the same paragraph after the quotation, or you might end the paragraph with the short quotation. It is the same with a long quotation. Finally, I have looked through the MLA handbook for guidance about this, and I have examined a number of MLA style websites to see if I could find a principle enunciated about it, but I do not see anything. They simply say that paragraphs should be indented five spaces from the left margin. So this may simply be a matter of style. I looked through a number of my texts, and I agree that almost all examples show an indentation after a long quotation. That is in keeping with my sense that there is usually a shift in purpose. There is some discussion over at WTM about how Microsoft Word formats things, if I understand it correctly, but that is not relevant to my texts in any way because my focus is on the MLA format and on classical principles of academic writing. I should finally add that I do not feel dogmatic about this at all; if a good writer wants not to indent and thus emphasize the continuity of the focus, that is the kind of decision that good writers make. In sum, indenting is a paragraph question, not a quotation question.

Post # 2:

 

 

Here are some websites that show sample MLA papers where the paragraph following the quotation is indented. I found it both ways, as I expected to. The principle involved is that indentation is a paragraph issue, not a quotation issue. In my own style, I tend to indent because I see the assessment of a quotation is different in focus from the presentation of a quotation, but I am not bothered at all if someone wants to present this the other way. Best to all, MCT

 

 

http://www.dianahacker.com/pdfs/hacker-daly-mla.pdf

 

 

http://bcs.bedfordstmartins.com/resd...-Orlov-MLA.pdf

 

 

http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/gramm...n/crywolf3.htm

 

 

http://grammar.ccc.commnet.edu/gramm...resp/wolf2.pdf

 

 

http://concordia.csp.edu/writingcent...20ed_42910.pdf

 

 

 

This one above says, "The text after the quote is not indented unless it begins a new paragraph."

 

 

Please, let's not discuss my indenting issues.;) (swimmermom3 recovering from chlorine fog)

[8filltheheart]

Thanks for sharing his response, Lisa.

[Miss Marple]

Thanks, Lisa, this is helpful as I look to begin using the writing portion of his program.

[rachel_rfwp]

MCT has posted this on the RFWP Support Forum. He takes seriously your discussion and contacted Purdue, which was mentioned in a post in this thread at the beginning. He says:

 

"I have received a response from the Purdue University English Department Online Writing Lab concerning my inquiry about whether or not to indent after a long quotation. Here is the full response:

 

'While MLA is very specific about whether and how you indent long quotations themselves (see section 3.7.2 of the 7th ed. handbook), it does not directly address whether and how to indent paragraphs after long quotations. What we gather, however, is that quotations should always be integrated into the flow of the text in a grammatically and stylistically appropriate way. If the original thought after the long quotation continues the ideas of the present paragraph, then there is no need to indent and start a new paragraph after the quotation. If the original thought after the long quotation formulates a topic sentence (a new idea, a new direction), indeed, starts a new paragraph, then the first sentence after the long quotation would be indented to start that new paragraph. In short, sometimes.'" "

 

Hope this helps!!