If TOG, do you do a separate Gov/Econ for high school?

[PeterPan]

I know they say it's integrated, but do people do a separate year of this anyway? Just trying to sort out a reasonable plan.

[johnandtinagilbert]

I know they say it's integrated, but do people do a separate year of this anyway? Just trying to sort out a reasonable plan.

Since we need American Gov't, I had my dc do all the gov't reading for year 3 and plan on year 4 also. They answered some of the questions on paper and the rest during discussion. I plan on counting it as a GOv't credit. B/c there is plenty of reading, I am sure that we won't do the lit. or church history or philosophy in the same year. You'll find that as you cover the years, they get a deep understanding of how gov't works as a whole and an understanding of the different parties as well. Ds can tell you more than you'll ever want to know about Whigs and Torys :)

 

We'll have to get Economics elsewhere, though. Unless someone shows me how TOG would fulfill that :)

[Karenciavo]

We do government as we go through TOG. Economics is separate, ds17 is doing it this year (senior).

[PeterPan]

Ah, now that possibility (a split) hadn't occurred to me. Thanks!

[Leanna Tomlinson]

I have my dc do the government readings and discussions, but not the written questions in 9th, 10th, and 11th grades. Dd #2 (took) and Ds #1 will take a government class online for 12th grade. This plan will also work for ds #2 since he will hit year 4 in 11th grade. I don't know what I will do with the younger ones.

 

I think the government readings are great, but I also really like the content of the online college class my dc have taken. They learn valuable governmental theory and background from their TOG readings, and then they get a working knowledge of American government and politics from their online class.

 

Ds #1 will also take Economics next year using a Teaching Company Course.

[PeterPan]

Leanna, see that's what I thought. I never got a good gov't or econ class in high school, and I really regret it. I think it's nice to have the readings over the years, but there's something to the focused effort to go through the topic and think through it as a whole, when you're OLDER and more mature, about ready to vote...

 

Ok, now here's a question. When would you do gov't and/or econ? They're each semester courses, right? How much time do they take up? Oh, and what is this online gov't class? Would it be possible to do a year of Brit lit and british history on top of gov't/econ? Or is that too much? Maybe the gov't/econ would go on top of TOG4? Just trying to sort this out. I have this idea that I'd like to do Brit lit and British history with dd as a senior and then go to England for a senior trip. I think it's about as grand and off the continent as I could get with dh, who is desparately afraid of places requiring foreign languages. So I'm just working backwards here.

Edited February 9, 2011 by OhElizabeth

[johnandtinagilbert]

Leanna, see that's what I thought. I never got a good gov't or econ class in high school, and I really regret it. I think it's nice to have the readings over the years, but there's something to the focused effort to go through the topic and think through it as a whole, when you're OLDER and more mature, about ready to vote... TOG provides a focused Government elective with separate readings of actual documentation, as well as questions to bring out discussion to bring thorough understanding. Additionally, you can get a solid grip on the system as a whole from Our Living Constitution, the Dialectic suggestion. We worked through the workbook entirely and my kids are rock solid. You really won't need anything further. TOG is complete. Notice Leanna is not answering the questions -- huge difference in content there.

 

Ok, now here's a question. When would you do gov't and/or econ? They're each semester courses, right? How much time do they take up? Oh, and what is this online gov't class? Would it be possible to do a year of Brit lit and british history on top of gov't/econ? Or is that too much? Maybe the gov't/econ would go on top of TOG4? Just trying to sort this out. I have this idea that I'd like to do Brit lit and British history with dd as a senior and then go to England for a senior trip. I think it's about as grand and off the continent as I could get with dh, who is desparately afraid of places requiring foreign languages. So I'm just working backwards here.

Yes, they're both 1/2 credits. We spend about 3 hours a week tops on gov't.

You will get a great deal of Brit. history in TOG. You may be surprised at how heavy the worldview of history is using TOG. Brit lit. is touched on as you go through a variety of Brit history, from a world history perspective. Not enough for a full on elective, but at least to get your feet wet. Honestly, doing addition govt/econ + Brit Lit + TOG would be HUGE.

Before you add on, get a bigger peak at TOG. It covers extensive amounts of humanities.

[PeterPan]

Sorry, I wasn't letting out everything on my mind. I forming a basic 6 year plan. It's looking like either 1+4+1 or 4+2. We school year round, and I have enough ideas (a VP class online right now, some modern after that) to keep us busy at least till fall, maybe longer. So basically I'm just identifying what we want to have time for on the tail end so we know at what point we definitely need to start in by on the front for that 4 year cycle. And no, I wouldn't do TOG plus the govt/econ and brit lit. I meant I'd finish the 4 year cycle and then have a year for electives. I was trying to determine if gov't/econ on top of brit lit/history would be logical. Hmmm, I'll have to look at the TOG4 scope & sequence or books and see what they cover. It's really just sort of a vague idea right now (read in-depth lots of biographies about bad dudes, watch movies, read lots of Jane Austen, that sort of thing). Seemed like a good thing to do your senior year of high school, right before a trip to England to see the stuff you've been reading about. :)

[Leanna Tomlinson]

http://www.cedarville.edu/Academics/Dual-Enrollment.aspx

 

Here's the link for our online classes.

Government is a semester course, so ds will do gov't and economics during different semesters.

 

I agree with Tina that doing TOG government as prescribed is a complete course; it's just something that we had trouble accomplishing when ds was adjusting to Rhetoric level work. The online course linked above is also dual credit for ds at his intended college, so it works for our purposes.

 

I'm with you on "thinking backwards". I would have loved to do your proposed senior year plan with my dd's. A few thoughts.....at the above link is also a Humanities class with a Christian focus. Since you would already be well versed in British history from a 4 year TOG cycle, that class may be one that would enhance your European trip. My eldest dd took this class at college,and dd #2 took it online as a high school senior. They both learned a lot even though we had always followed the Fine Arts threads with TOG. The TOG fine arts threads were a great preparation for the Humanities class.

 

You could also save TOG's literary comparison paper for your Brit Lit class. You could really have fun with that project as a focus for senior year. Austen, Bronte, Dickens.....what fun!

[Lori D.]

Not Leanna and not familiar with TOG's Gov't and Econ ;), but here's my 2 cents in general on doing Gov't and Econ credits:

 

 

GOVERNMENT

 

1. Do it while you're doing American History; there is SO much overlap, they really add to each other very nicely.

 

(in 1780s of US history you get the Legislative branch writing of the Articles of Confederation, Federalist Papers, and the Constitution and Bill of Rights; in the 1800s-1900s you get Judicial branch key Supreme Court rulings that match up with historical events; and in the last half of the 1900s-present you get the establishment of all the Executive Branch

 

2. Don't do it before 11th grade; it can be rather dry and abstract so waiting until the junior or senior year helps give those logic and abstract thinking portions of the brain more time to develop -- and, as you say, it puts it closer to the time it becomes personally relevant to a student who will soon be able to vote.

 

3. Make it more meaningful with hands-on -- do a year of either Teen Pact or Youth & Government -- your student will actually BE at the capital and DO the job of a legislator and/or lobbyist. Attend a 1-day or a weekend JSAJ Conference. Participate in a local Teen Court or Mock Trial program, or a Model U.N. program.

 

(Can do this at any time during high school; and for Youth & Gov't, if you do it earlier it gives your student a chance to come back the next year and even run for office or do other positions! Also, if it's done earlier in high school, once you hit the "how a bill becomes law" portion of the Government program in 11th or 12th grade, they will already "get it" because they will have DONE it.)

 

 

When would you do gov't and/or econ? They're each semester courses, right? How much time do they take up?

 

 

It doesn't have to take more than a few hours per week for 1 semester -- OR LESS if you spread it out over a year. And even less if you do a little throughout all your high school years -- a book here, a book there; a trip to the Capital one summer or do Teen Pact or Youth & Gov't one semester; or attend a political rally, or a Junior State of America (JSA) Conference one weekend; volunteer some hours for an election campaign; etc.

(Especially since our DSs participated in Youth & Gov't (see #3 above) for several years, and attended a weekend JSA conference, we didn't have to put too much time in on a textbook to fill in the gaps, so the government credit only took about 60 min/week for 1 semester.)

 

 

 

Would it be possible to do a year of Brit lit and british history on top of gov't/econ? ... I have this idea that I'd like to do Brit lit and British history with dd as a senior and then go to England for a senior trip.

 

 

If you did American History and Gov't in grade 11, then you could do your British History and British Lit in grade 12 and top it off with your senior trip to England!

 

 

 

ECONOMICS

 

1. Whatever else you do, be sure to include Dave Ramsey's Foundations in Personal Finance program for high school. It is about 12 hours of DVD workshop material and accompanying workbook of fantastic, specific, practical material -- absolute must for every student -- and parents! :)

 

To finish off our Econ credit, we've been going through The Teaching Company's Economics, an 18-hour DVD lecture series on micro and macro economics. But you could use any number of resources to finish off an Econ credit, and like the Gov't, you could spread it out over a year, or several yeasrs if desired.

 

 

BEST of luck in your high school planning! Warmest regards, Lori D.

Edited February 10, 2011 by Lori D.

[PeterPan]

Leanna-I hadn't seen the online offerings from Cedarville. Those look very nice! Thanks for the tips! Yes, I'm liking this whole idea of classes leading to a trip. Then dd killed me tonight and said ITALY would be way better than England, lol. Oh well, can't win. Maybe by 18 she'll like England too.

 

Lori-As always, lots of to think about! Thanks for the ideas! :)

[choirfarm]

Since my oldest did Year 3 for the first time as Rhetoric, I decided that history, literature and church history were enough. With his advanced math and science classes, I didn't want to overwhelm him. So we didn't do government. He was only 9th grade. This year for 10th and year 4, he wanted to do a CS Lewis class, so I didn't do government again since he had Physics and AP Stats on top of his regular math. Next year both he and my son will do PA homeschoolers US Government class. It looks really fun and will prepare them for the AP exam. The next year I will have them do Economics with PA homeschoolers. The games on that course look really wonderful. If he had been a junior and senior when we did years 3 and 4, then I might have done the government track along with it. For me, it was just too much.

 

Christine

[Karenciavo]

My oldest did Year 1 rhetoric in 8th grade and this year, which is 12th grade, he has the luxury of studying the lit he wants (this semester it's Russian) and doing an in-depth econ study reading most of the great minds of conservative economic theory and some that aren't, but have influenced our world. I recommend it, it's nice having this year.

[Holly IN]

I know they say it's integrated, but do people do a separate year of this anyway? Just trying to sort out a reasonable plan.

 

For now we stopped doing Gov't through TOG. My sophomore is using a different text to study gov't. He is also part of Teen Pact. He really wants to follow SWB's suggestions on Gov't even though TOG uses the same book SWB recommends (Democracy in America). SWB does recommend other sources along with this book.

 

Here in Indiana only 1 semester of Gov't is required and have to take it in their Senior year. So right now my sophmore has more than enough credits for gov't.

I have read any replies so will sign off to read them. Hope this helps.

 

I will be doing the same thing as Loir D. is for economics. Right now we are discussing economics with our kids which will lay the foundation for formal studies when all the kids are in their Senior year. However formal study will not be done till Senior year. On top of Lori's suggestions we will try to do the Stock game online if I can get access to it. Again Econ is 1 semester course.

Holly

Edited February 10, 2011 by Holly IN

[PeterPan]

Karenciavo, sounds like I'm on the right track! Since you did the yr 1 rhetoric level in 8th, what is your thought on 7th? Would that have been nuts? How did you know he was ready to do the rhetoric level work? What did you look for?

 

Thanks for all the comments ladies!

[choirfarm]

Karenciavo, sounds like I'm on the right track! Since you did the yr 1 rhetoric level in 8th, what is your thought on 7th? Would that have been nuts? How did you know he was ready to do the rhetoric level work? What did you look for?

 

Thanks for all the comments ladies!

 

Possibly not. I would say it depends on the student. When my boys did year 3 as 7th and 9th, I really used what I think is TOG's strength: its flexibility. My 7th grader/was is a voracious reader. We had already done Sonlight year 3 and 4 in one year a couple of years before. I had gotten him tons of books. He also LOVES the Civil War and so does my dh. As a result, he had already read all of the unit 3 literature and history for dialectic level. So I moved him up to rhetoric, but didn't require the questions. That said, he participated in our discussions quite well.

 

Now the literature as written is quite hard for rhetoric level. On the other hand, he had already read most of the year's literature. So I had him read some rhetoric with Progeny Press guides ( much easier than TOG's deep analysis) or with questions I had used in ps. I found alternate things for him to read.

 

He is doing year 4 completely rhetoric level as an 8th grader with no trouble. He read Farenheit 451 in 2 days. Actually, he's read most of his literature in 2 days. He just can't put it down until he is done. My 10th grader is quite content to read a chapter or two a day and focus on all of his math and science.

 

So, its it crazy, no its not...for some students. I might not require some of the written work and it also depends on the year plan. Year 1 with its Oddyssey and Anead is MUCH different than Great Gatsby, Farenheit 451 and To Kill a Mockingbird. I don't think my 8th grader would have finished those works in a couple of days. So for us, the boys will do AP government with my teaching AP literature next year for 9th and 11th. For 10th and 12th, they will start back over with Year 1. By 10th, my middle one should be ready to tackle the Anead.

 

Christine

[Karenciavo]

Karenciavo, sounds like I'm on the right track! Since you did the yr 1 rhetoric level in 8th, what is your thought on 7th? Would that have been nuts? How did you know he was ready to do the rhetoric level work? What did you look for?

 

Thanks for all the comments ladies!

 

I knew my oldest was ready because he was/is a very deep thinker and humanities driven. I could have done rhetoric with him in 7th, but the volume of work would have overwhelmed him. Between 7th and 8th something finally clicked and he was able to handle large work loads - he did Omnibus I and TOG (history, geography, government) that year. I could never do that with ds15 who is my mathy/science guy. Rhetoric is still a bit of a struggle for him and so he uses the reduced lit schedule. It depends on the child. I would say *most* couldn't handle it in 7th and I wouldn't push it. And you have to think about the fact that Year 2 in any year is brutal, if you're stretching your 7th grader for year 1, he/she may snap when they get to year 2 in 8th.

[Rhonda in TX]

Tagging on to Elizabeth's thread... Would it be possible to pull the Government assignments out of Years 3 and 4 and cover them in a separate semester? DS will be doing Years 2-4 in grades 9-11. I think we're going to have a hard enough time covering Rhetoric level history even without the government. I just can't see adding that in. I'm considering doing a semester of government his senior year using TOG Government assignments. How easy/hard would it be to use the TOG government assignments separate from the history assignments?

[johnandtinagilbert]

Tagging on to Elizabeth's thread... Would it be possible to pull the Government assignments out of Years 3 and 4 and cover them in a separate semester? DS will be doing Years 2-4 in grades 9-11. I think we're going to have a hard enough time covering Rhetoric level history even without the government. I just can't see adding that in. I'm considering doing a semester of government his senior year using TOG Government assignments. How easy/hard would it be to use the TOG government assignments separate from the history assignments?

You could, but part of the beauty I see is the overlap in history and gov't. This is why I am only going to read the lit. in Rh Year 4 and not really do any discussion. It's too much for us, but the reading alone is just fine when combined with the gov't and hist. TOG is a huge monster in full!

[PeterPan]

Choirfarm-Thank you so much for explaining that! It hadn't occurred to me to flex it like that (merging dialectic and rhetoric, doing what she is ready for and not what she isn't). That solves some problems for me. I definitely think I'm on the right track now.

 

Karenciavo-Thanks! Don't be shocked if I bop in with more questions for you, since I'm latching onto your ideas and methods for this. :) I didn't know what people meant when they said a humanities kid. I guess if you mean a voracious reader who flies through books, likes to make connections, loves the narratives of history, wants to know the why's, and cries because she doesn't know dates for everything she wants to know, then yes she's a humanities person. I've just never thought of her that way. She's been my little girl who wouldn't sit right for writing, whose hand hurt, who couldn't do puzzles or catch a ball. Now she's my big, 5'5" who writes compare and contrast papers and wants rhetoric level TOG reading and to memorize history dates so she can make connections. Go figure. Guess you could say we're making that transition from what she's not good at to what she is.

[johnandtinagilbert]

Choirfarm-Thank you so much for explaining that! It hadn't occurred to me to flex it like that (merging dialectic and rhetoric, doing what she is ready for and not what she isn't). That solves some problems for me. I definitely think I'm on the right track now.

 

Karenciavo-Thanks! Don't be shocked if I bop in with more questions for you, since I'm latching onto your ideas and methods for this. :) I didn't know what people meant when they said a humanities kid. I guess if you mean a voracious reader who flies through books, likes to make connections, loves the narratives of history, wants to know the why's, and cries because she doesn't know dates for everything she wants to know, then yes she's a humanities person. I've just never thought of her that way. She's been my little girl who wouldn't sit right for writing, whose hand hurt, who couldn't do puzzles or catch a ball. Now she's my big, 5'5" who writes compare and contrast papers and wants rhetoric level TOG reading and to memorize history dates so she can make connections. Go figure. Guess you could say we're making that transition from what she's not good at to what she is.

That makes TOG magnificent. I have 3 kids doing materials from 2 places this year! It also makes for a nice transition, even if their skills are there.

 

And yes, sounds like you have a Ms. Humanities :) My 11 yo dd is too, so we're diving into Dialectic next year full force. She's been in UG for history (and bored about it) and D literature this year, as well as reading the UG literature. She's very much enjoyed that part!

[PeterPan]

See that's the thing. When she looked at the samples, she wanted the rhetoric level questions now. I told her she was nuts, lol. But she's a why person, not a what. It didn't help I was showing her the year 3 sample, which was on material more familiar to her. In any case, no matter how hard I try to get her out of the box, I'm still usually pretty in in my thinking. I anticipate by high school she'll be reading and enjoying the Johnson books, like K's boy. I've already gotten one to look at. My mother's dh is that way, dyslexic but this serious history person. It's just something that works for their brains. So that was all to say you're right that I could flex it now, knowing I can bump the materials up a notch even from what TOG R-level includes the next time around. I just work better with some structure. I'm catching y'alls vision that I can use TOG as that structure, a framework, and plug it in with TOC, Johnson, Omnibus sections, anything we want, diverging and converging as it suits us. It's a more fleshed out version of the VP elementary history in that sense, or at least that's the way we used the vp elementary.

[Karenciavo]

Not hard at all. I would copy and paste the government questions into a separate workbook, download and print all the TOG government readings and bind that in as well.

 

I'm pretty sure all of Democracy in America is not scheduled, I'm thinking only portions of the Communist Manifesto are included as well. I had my son read them all as well as mein kampf which is not scheduled.

 

Tagging on to Elizabeth's thread... Would it be possible to pull the Government assignments out of Years 3 and 4 and cover them in a separate semester? DS will be doing Years 2-4 in grades 9-11. I think we're going to have a hard enough time covering Rhetoric level history even without the government. I just can't see adding that in. I'm considering doing a semester of government his senior year using TOG Government assignments. How easy/hard would it be to use the TOG government assignments separate from the history assignments?

[johnandtinagilbert]

 

See that's the thing. When she looked at the samples, she wanted the rhetoric level questions now. I told her she was nuts, lol. But she's a why person, not a what. It didn't help I was showing her the year 3 sample, which was on material more familiar to her. In any case, no matter how hard I try to get her out of the box, I'm still usually pretty in in my thinking. I anticipate by high school she'll be reading and enjoying the Johnson books, like K's boy. I've already gotten one to look at. My mother's dh is that way, dyslexic but this serious history person. It's just something that works for their brains. So that was all to say you're right that I could flex it now, knowing I can bump the materials up a notch even from what TOG R-level includes the next time around. I just work better with some structure. I'm catching y'alls vision that I can use TOG as that structure, a framework, and plug it in with TOC, Johnson, Omnibus sections, anything we want, diverging and converging as it suits us. It's a more fleshed out version of the VP elementary history in that sense, or at least that's the way we used the vp elementary.

Exactly. I think of TOG as the SpringBoard or Framework. When I first started using it, I didn't sub a thing, but as my library grew and my teaching skills improved, I can use TOG however I see fit. It's so nice to have the flexibility, with the assurance and fallback that TOG gives me.

[Zee]

Do you think it would be better to make the government workbook as you describe here and do it in 12th, or bite the bullet and do the government with the history in earlier years? This is what I've been trying to decide. We'll be doing 9th in the fall. We'll be doing U3&4 of Year 2 and U1&2 of Year 3. My thought was to continue doing the dialectic level as we finish up Year 2 but also doing the Rhetoric level government at the same time. My thought was to ramp it up slowly like Tina did. Then midyear move into rhetoric for everything when we begin year 3. I feel like this is the thing I'm most having trouble deciding over. Which do you think would be the best option - pull out the government and wait for maturity in 12th (even though we won't be studying American history then), or do it next year while American history is fresh on the brain? What would you do?

[johnandtinagilbert]

Do you think it would be better to make the government workbook as you describe here and do it in 12th, or bite the bullet and do the government with the history in earlier years? This is what I've been trying to decide. We'll be doing 9th in the fall. We'll be doing U3&4 of Year 2 and U1&2 of Year 3. My thought was to continue doing the dialectic level as we finish up Year 2 but also doing the Rhetoric level government at the same time. My thought was to ramp it up slowly like Tina did. Then midyear move into rhetoric for everything when we begin year 3. I feel like this is the thing I'm most having trouble deciding over. Which do you think would be the best option - pull out the government and wait for maturity in 12th (even though we won't be studying American history then), or do it next year while American history is fresh on the brain? What would you do?

The latter. I find it would reap the benefits of TOG better and save redundancy.

[Holly IN]

Not hard at all. I would copy and paste the government questions into a separate workbook, download and print all the TOG government readings and bind that in as well.

 

I'm pretty sure all of Democracy in America is not scheduled, I'm thinking only portions of the Communist Manifesto are included as well. I had my son read them all as well as mein kampf which is not scheduled.

 

My son is considering having me do this in his Senior year. Also combined with SWB's suggestions. (he wants to go into either politicial media or media)

 

So glad I am not alone in this!! This comment makes me feel good!! Thanks Karenciavo!!

[Zee]

Thanks, Tina! My gut was saying to do it next year, but I had all these doubts. I just needed someone to tell me it was a good idea and that it wouldn't mess up my son's life forever. :lol: Whew! I can sleep now, have peace, and move on in my planning. Ever feel like you are seized up over one decision? KWIM?

 

I think I will make a government workbook this summer as Karen suggested and may add in reading from SWB's recommendations. I'm interested in an overview book that will fill in the gaps of government we won't be studying in other year plans. Probably the "Complete Idiot's Guide to American Gov't" will be the choice.

 

I feel SO MUCH BETTER NOW! Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread. It was really helpful!! :grouphug:

[johnandtinagilbert]

Thanks, Tina! My gut was saying to do it next year, but I had all these doubts. I just needed someone to tell me it was a good idea and that it wouldn't mess up my son's life forever. :lol: Whew! I can sleep now, have peace, and move on in my planning. Ever feel like you are seized up over one decision? KWIM?

 

I think I will make a government workbook this summer as Karen suggested and may add in reading from SWB's recommendations. I'm interested in an overview book that will fill in the gaps of government we won't be studying in other year plans. Probably the "Complete Idiot's Guide to American Gov't" will be the choice.

 

I feel SO MUCH BETTER NOW! Thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread. It was really helpful!! :grouphug:

YES! I do know what you mean! Too many sleepless nights over high school were happenin' over here last summer! BTDT!