TOG vs. WTM for Logic Stage

[TKDmom]

Can I get any comparisons or experiences with using TOG vs. just doing things the way TWTM lays it out?

 

I spent my week poring over the 3-week TOG sample. I almost convinced myself to buy a unit. ;) But then I thought it might be a good idea to talk to dh. His reaction? "You're looking at TOG again??" (insert eye-rolling).

 

So I proceeded to tel him all the cool things about TOG. It includes 4 separate levels! It has all the books laid out for me! It has discussion questions! It has writing assignments!

 

Finally dh said, "Doesn't that book of yours (WTM) have all those kinds of things in it?" We-e-ell, yes. I suppose it does. But it's not all laid out in a shiny, new curriculum...

 

So do you have any experiences that would be helpful for me? In the meantime, I think I'll go re-read TWTM....

[Heather in WI]

We used TOG Ancients (year one) through week 18 of this year. We did about half of the program (everyone tells you that you can't do everything, so I didn't even try!), and it still was too much. I was dreading, dreading, dreading going back to school during the Christmas break. The Friday before we were supposed to start school again, I sat down with dh and he gave me the go-ahead to ditch it.

 

My fifth grader is reading SOTW Ancients + outlining and taking notes from the Usborne and Kingfisher Encyclopedias + reading library books and books from our home library. It has been such a relief and I am enjoying history again!

[siloam]

Can I get any comparisons or experiences with using TOG vs. just doing things the way TWTM lays it out?

 

I spent my week poring over the 3-week TOG sample. I almost convinced myself to buy a unit. ;) But then I thought it might be a good idea to talk to dh. His reaction? "You're looking at TOG again??" (insert eye-rolling).

 

So I proceeded to tel him all the cool things about TOG. It includes 4 separate levels! It has all the books laid out for me! It has discussion questions! It has writing assignments!

 

Finally dh said, "Doesn't that book of yours (WTM) have all those kinds of things in it?" We-e-ell, yes. I suppose it does. But it's not all laid out in a shiny, new curriculum...

 

So do you have any experiences that would be helpful for me? In the meantime, I think I'll go re-read TWTM....

Bonnie,

 

I adore TOG, but it is a lot. I think the hard thing is you pay so much for it you want to get your money's worth and it is very easy to do too much, or if you can manage not to do too much you feel like you are wasting your money by using so little.

 

Here I don't use any of the SAP pages. We don't need the lit analysis as CW has that, and my kiddos are overwhelmed by pages of things to do. They need to see the big picture, so I make up a schedule that condenses the parts we use to one page and we all work off of that.

 

I do use the Vocab, mapping, literature and worldview recommendations. I generally substitute the spines and the Fine Arts choices (we love Mike Venezia books). I honestly could use anything as a base, but I like TOG because it has the most parts laid out for me, and allows me to use books I prefer instead of being locked into their choices. As I come back to year 1 I will also use the discussion questions and the D level Evaluations work, maybe some of the writing as well. But those will be hit and miss for a while, probably only of of them a week.

 

To date I have dealt with the volume of work by simply taking longer. Now as I come back to year 1 I am going to drop the Bible work. My kids have covered Bible for years, and both of my chosen spines summarize Biblical Events (MOH and Guerber's Story of the Ancient World, ...Greeks and ...Romans). That is going to cut down the reading to a more manageable volume. Year 2 I will have to split into two years, because it is just too much as is. Year 3 and 4 I will probably have to pick and choose what lit to use.

 

TOG can be a great tool, if it fits your personality/style. If it doesn't it can just be a lot of guilt. The WTM recommendations are lighter, but you have to do more work to pull pieces together. I personally wouldn't do a good job pulling together vocab, and would over obsess over getting the right lit books for the week, one that lined up with the topic. I also would miss the integration of topics. For those reasons TOG is a better fit for me.

 

Heather

[Pata]

Can I get any comparisons or experiences with using TOG vs. just doing things the way TWTM lays it out?

 

I spent my week poring over the 3-week TOG sample. I almost convinced myself to buy a unit. ;) But then I thought it might be a good idea to talk to dh. His reaction? "You're looking at TOG again??" (insert eye-rolling).

 

So I proceeded to tel him all the cool things about TOG. It includes 4 separate levels! It has all the books laid out for me! It has discussion questions! It has writing assignments!

 

Finally dh said, "Doesn't that book of yours (WTM) have all those kinds of things in it?" We-e-ell, yes. I suppose it does. But it's not all laid out in a shiny, new curriculum...

 

So do you have any experiences that would be helpful for me? In the meantime, I think I'll go re-read TWTM....

 

:lol: This exact conversation happened in my house not too long ago! Maybe we both need to stop looking at TOG, said by the person whose watching this thread with interest even though we've got a few years before we hit logic stage.

[BlsdMama]

Can I get any comparisons or experiences with using TOG vs. just doing things the way TWTM lays it out?

 

I spent my week poring over the 3-week TOG sample. I almost convinced myself to buy a unit. ;) But then I thought it might be a good idea to talk to dh. His reaction? "You're looking at TOG again??" (insert eye-rolling).

 

So I proceeded to tel him all the cool things about TOG. It includes 4 separate levels! It has all the books laid out for me! It has discussion questions! It has writing assignments!

 

Finally dh said, "Doesn't that book of yours (WTM) have all those kinds of things in it?" We-e-ell, yes. I suppose it does. But it's not all laid out in a shiny, new curriculum...

 

So do you have any experiences that would be helpful for me? In the meantime, I think I'll go re-read TWTM....

 

I'm a HUGE Tapestry fan.

 

I wouldn't use it if I were you.

 

:iagree: :001_huh: :confused:

 

 

No, really. I think it's overkill if you're only using it for the younger grades. Now, ask me if I'd recommend it for you in 2 years? Yup.

 

Because in 2-3 years, all of a sudden you'll have a Dialectic student and then two more you want to happily "roll in" to what you're doing.

 

I also have a 9yo & 7yo. I do some of the Tapestry recommendations with them, but simply because they are "rolled in" to the topics we're discussing here at the house. Tapestry makes good sense for siblings.

 

If you were to try to make a list for books strictly from TWTM, get them, read them, write up discussion points, assign separate readings for the weeks, and then come up with topics to write on, it would end up being a bit much for you to do with three children.

 

We followed TWTM recommendations for our oldest almost exactly until she was a 7th grader. Then I had a few up and coming younger children and I really wanted to tie them together and have a better plan for my oldest as I was beginning to "slip" in the chaos. Ultimately Tapestry became that good fit.

 

But I feel that TWTM gave her an OUTSTANDING education for K-6. Beyond that I still find myself referring back to it, and still utilize the recommendations and some of SWB's audios. But, now I want things a little more laid out for me and I want the levels of kiddos I have in tandem. And it would really be overwhelming for me to do that at this stage.

 

Tapestry is a curriculum resource at the end of the day. So is TWTM essentially. One is a little more planned out and you pay for that. SWB's book is $38. TOG is $265. Both of their recommendations are rock solid.

Both encompass all the grades. Both cover history and literature. Both will tell you who and which events are important to know for each time period. Tapestry has rhetoric level work in it that, for me, is essential to where I'm at. Would I buy it if I had only kids your childrens' ages? No. But am I huge fan of Tapestry because it fits MY family right now? Absolutely.

[TKDmom]

 

My fifth grader is reading SOTW Ancients + outlining and taking notes from the Usborne and Kingfisher Encyclopedias + reading library books and books from our home library. It has been such a relief and I am enjoying history again!

 

That's good to hear. I tried to follow that path when I fist started hs'ing, but I was having morning sickness and had no energy for adding in library books or any thing else that was fun. It made the WTM approach seem too boring. I bet I could do a better job now with some experience under my belt (and no morning sickness). ;)

[TKDmom]

TOG can be a great tool, if it fits your personality/style. If it doesn't it can just be a lot of guilt. The WTM recommendations are lighter, but you have to do more work to pull pieces together. I personally wouldn't do a good job pulling together vocab, and would over obsess over getting the right lit books for the week, one that lined up with the topic. I also would miss the integration of topics. For those reasons TOG is a better fit for me.

 

Heather

 

That's a nice way to summarize it. I can see myself having the guilt. I'm a box checker. I also lack the confidence in my abilities to pull everything together well enough to satisfy myself. Soo, I just have to figure out where I am between those two options...

[AngelBee]

That's a nice way to summarize it. I can see myself having the guilt. I'm a box checker. I also lack the confidence in my abilities to pull everything together well enough to satisfy myself. Soo, I just have to figure out where I am between those two options...

Neither one is really a perfect fit for a box checker. :grouphug:

[PeterPan]

Bonnie, I so know what you mean! I get tired of the idea or implication that we all should just bring history to life. Well we would if we knew how (it's more of a hindsite thing than anything, lol), had the energy, didn't have morning sickness or health problems or other distractions, etc.! It's just not reality for everyone. Sometimes something that comes out of the box with pre-done fun, just mix and add water, is a welcome relief. :)

[TKDmom]

No, really. I think it's overkill if you're only using it for the younger grades. Now, ask me if I'd recommend it for you in 2 years? Yup.

 

Because in 2-3 years, all of a sudden you'll have a Dialectic student and then two more you want to happily "roll in" to what you're doing.

 

I also have a 9yo & 7yo. I do some of the Tapestry recommendations with them, but simply because they are "rolled in" to the topics we're discussing here at the house. Tapestry makes good sense for siblings.

 

If you were to try to make a list for books strictly from TWTM, get them, read them, write up discussion points, assign separate readings for the weeks, and then come up with topics to write on, it would end up being a bit much for you to do with three children.

 

We followed TWTM recommendations for our oldest almost exactly until she was a 7th grader. Then I had a few up and coming younger children and I really wanted to tie them together and have a better plan for my oldest as I was beginning to "slip" in the chaos. Ultimately Tapestry became that good fit.

 

But I feel that TWTM gave her an OUTSTANDING education for K-6. Beyond that I still find myself referring back to it, and still utilize the recommendations and some of SWB's audios. But, now I want things a little more laid out for me and I want the levels of kiddos I have in tandem. And it would really be overwhelming for me to do that at this stage.

 

Tapestry is a curriculum resource at the end of the day. So is TWTM essentially. One is a little more planned out and you pay for that. SWB's book is $38. TOG is $265. Both of their recommendations are rock solid.

Both encompass all the grades. Both cover history and literature. Both will tell you who and which events are important to know for each time period. Tapestry has rhetoric level work in it that, for me, is essential to where I'm at. Would I buy it if I had only kids your childrens' ages? No. But am I huge fan of Tapestry because it fits MY family right now? Absolutely.

 

You know, what got me looking at TOG again was reading a post by a woman who talked about the fact that SHE was the oldest student in her homeschool, and how she wished she had realized that while her children were still in grammar stage--she could have been doing some of her Rhetoric work for herself before she actually had high-schoolers.

 

I was looking at switching to TOG this coming fall when my dd starts 5th grade, and my younger ds starts 1st (I don't even know what grade to call my 7yo anymore--his skills are all over the place. I'm pretty sure I'd put him as a UG student next fall, though). We'll be ready to start ancients again. I was thinking that it might be a good time for me to get serious about educating myself in history and great books. It would also give me a year to get familiar with the program before I have students in 3 separate levels.

 

Of course, if I'm being realistic, I don't have all that much time for educating myself, but I can't imagine that it will get easier as my children get older... I'd think that just reading through the teacher's notes for all the levels would give me a head start on some of that learning. Would you agree? Or am I just trying to justify my desire for an expensive program?

[PeterPan]

http://www.tapestryofgrace.com/loom/PDFs/Teacher%20Summer%20Reading.pdf

 

This is the reading list TOG suggests you pursue to get ready. You don't have to buy the whole core. :)

[TKDmom]

Neither one is really a perfect fit for a box checker. :grouphug:

 

:D Oh, but I get so frustrated with all the stupid, little boxes, even while I'm desperately trying to check them off. Does that count for anything? ;)

 

I think I'm going around in circles. I still get overwhelmed when I try to look through WTM rec's and think about planning the details myself. My dc want more hands-on activities, but I'm horrible about coming up with ideas and implementing them. I'm also not all that skilled in seeing connections between things--which I'm supposedly going to start teaching my LS student how to do next year. I'd like to think that I could pick and choose between TOG assignments by focusing on the history reading, then only adding in other things that looks fun. But I just don't know how realistic I'm being, KWIM?

 

I think my default choice is going to be to go through SOTW + AG and maybe utilize Veritaserum's Classical House of Learning Literature program.

 

Or maybe I should just throw teaching history to my dh who actually made it through the whole year of AP history without falling asleep.

 

 

 

 

But TOG still looks awfully nice... ;)

Edited February 7, 2011 by bonniebeth4
typo

[TKDmom]

http://www.tapestryofgrace.com/loom/PDFs/Teacher%20Summer%20Reading.pdf

 

This is the reading list TOG suggests you pursue to get ready. You don't have to buy the whole core. :)

 

 

Oooh, I hadn't seen this. Thank you!!

[AngelBee]

:D Oh, but I get so frustrated with all the stupid, little boxes, even while I'm desperately trying to check them off. Does that count for anything? ;)

 

 

I am the same way! :001_huh: :lol:

[johnandtinagilbert]

TOG can be a great tool, if it fits your personality/style. If it doesn't it can just be a lot of guilt. The WTM recommendations are lighter, but you have to do more work to pull pieces together. I personally wouldn't do a good job pulling together vocab, and would over obsess over getting the right lit books for the week, one that lined up with the topic. I also would miss the integration of topics. For those reasons TOG is a better fit for me.

 

Heather

:iagree: This is why I started TOG. On the old forums, a handful of people were using TOG classic, but the redesign was in the mix. That year, I was spending 6-8 hours every Sunday preparing for the next weeks history, following WTM recs, with MOH as my spine. I had a 5th, 4th, 3rd, 1st and pre-Ker at the time. After about 5 weeks my dh said I needed to make a change in our schooling b/c he wanted to see his wife on the family's "Day of Rest." There was nothing to "drop," I just needed something that did all the legwork for me. TOG does that. It fulfills all the WTM recs and puts them in a shiny, colorful single place and it takes me FAR less time to plan. I can pick the books for the entire year, all 4 levels in less than 2 hours, the maps are there (I don't have to dig or search for them), the lit. suggestions are there and with questions so I don't have to read everything, and the quality and richness I'd get from WTM recs alone are there, too. TOG takes care of My need for rigor with quality; my families need for me b/c I'm available to them since I'm not doing it all by myself; my dcs needs b/c it meets many learning styles; and my husbands needs b/c since I have all 4 volumes now, I'll never buy history again and he's quite pleased that our budget is positively affected! I wish I would have started it sooner so I could have read more of the Rhetoric materials.

 

That's a nice way to summarize it. I can see myself having the guilt. I'm a box checker. I also lack the confidence in my abilities to pull everything together well enough to satisfy myself. Soo, I just have to figure out where I am between those two options...

I happen to check all kinds of boxes in TOG! There are bullets on the Student Assignment Pages and also on the Booklists :D Check! Check! Check!:party:

 

Bonnie, I so know what you mean! I get tired of the idea or implication that we all should just bring history to life. Well we would if we knew how (it's more of a hindsite thing than anything, lol), had the energy, didn't have morning sickness or health problems or other distractions, etc.! It's just not reality for everyone. Sometimes something that comes out of the box with pre-done fun, just mix and add water, is a welcome relief. :)

Amen. And, fwiw, Elizabeth, I can't imagine you ever not having fun w/ your dd. I imagine she makes sure of it! Even though TOG is a packaged, I don't see it as a box like others b/c you can pick and choose. It really is a tasty buffet. Eat what you like, leave the rest for somebody else!

 

You know, what got me looking at TOG again was reading a post by a woman who talked about the fact that SHE was the oldest student in her homeschool, and how she wished she had realized that while her children were still in grammar stage--she could have been doing some of her Rhetoric work for herself before she actually had high-schoolers. I used to think TOG would be too much for the younger years, until I got to the Rhetoric levels and realized I could have been reading up instead of finding other things to do with my time. It would have helped. High school is the real deal and I could have been better prepared. Additionally, I find the books to be a bit more exciting and nicely illustrated in the grammar stages and my dc enjoy them more than SOTW. Don't get me wrong, we still use SOTW for Upper Grammar, but my lower grammar students prefer other books.

 

I was looking at switching to TOG this coming fall when my dd starts 5th grade, and my younger ds starts 1st (I don't even know what grade to call my 7yo anymore--his skills are all over the place. I'm pretty sure I'd put him as a UG student next fall, though). We'll be ready to start ancients again. I was thinking that it might be a good time for me to get serious about educating myself in history and great books. It would also give me a year to get familiar with the program before I have students in 3 separate levels. Starting in 5th is great. It's where I started. I was so impressed b/c although I was spending all that time getting history together, when we started TOG, having the Socratic Discussion guidance made TOG 10times better! You build up and after a little while, you see your students putting together the pieces "across the board." They start to understand how geography is more than physical features, but play a part in strategy. They see how literature of the time plays an important role in understanding society and politics. They see how history repeats itself and that there is a cycle of civilizations. It is so wonderful to watch this happen and all the while, you're leading them via TOG accountability and thinking questions and you don't have to figure out how to implement the process, the reading and questions do it for you. What a relief! *I* wouldn't even know where to start, otherwise.

 

Of course, if I'm being realistic, I don't have all that much time for educating myself, but I can't imagine that it will get easier as my children get older... I'd think that just reading through the teacher's notes for all the levels would give me a head start on some of that learning. Would you agree? Or am I just trying to justify my desire for an expensive program?

 

http://www.tapestryofgrace.com/loom/PDFs/Teacher%20Summer%20Reading.pdf

 

This is the reading list TOG suggests you pursue to get ready. You don't have to buy the whole core. :)

THANK YOU! That's a great link! That should make your prep. time easier :)

[Janice in NJ]

Hi Bonnie,

 

I think I'm the "woman" in the TOG post. ;)

 

There are tons of options for self-education. Have you read Susan's Well-Educated Mind. If you search the high school boards, you will find many fellow-pilgrims who are putting that text to good use with their high schoolers - Nan comes to mine, but there are others. :001_smile:

 

I found TOG's structure useful. It helped me see how to self-educate while hsing my kids. It helped me immensely. But there are many paths to the same goal. Many.

 

So TOG can be a useful tool. But it won't build the house for you. You still have to do the work. :001_smile:

 

One of the points I was trying to make in that original TOG post was that I wished I had spent less time looking for curriculum that would build the house for me. I wish I had spent more time in the grammar/logic stage whacking boards together with the materials I had. Choosing a program that will help me teach epic poetry can swell to fill YEARS of time - clicking on web sites, endlessly discussing programs, printing samples, (bothering my dh with endless discussions about education and programs. Yup! Me too!:001_smile:), organizing exhaustive reading lists, discussing them, and researching more curriculum SEEMS like it's a good way to understand The Odyssey. Picking up ONE resource and using it to help me READ the Odyssey was a better method. Too hard? Find another resource. Still too hard? Try Oliver Twist. Easier? WHY, Janice???? Why was it easier? Now USE that info to find a resource to help Janice read the Odyssey. Attempting to read the Great Books helped me nail down my own skill level. Where was I? I realized that I needed to learn how to interact with the Great Books if I was going to teach my kids to interact with them. Finding MY entry point was the first step.

 

Researching curriculum didn't actually help as much as I thought it would. Discussing my research didn't move me forward that much. Trying to read the books? Worm-holes! Once you know your own personal entry point, it's easier to choose curriculum to support that entry point. That was the point I was trying to make with the TOG post.

 

This has recently been discussed again here:

http://welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2329133#poststop'>http://welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2329133#poststop'>http://welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2329133#poststop'>http://welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2329133#poststop

 

The OP already has TOG and is looking to self-educate. She had pm'ed me. I posted because I was having trouble pm'ing her back. My pm got too long-winded - like now. :001_smile: But she had written to me about wanting to self-educate. From the note she sent me, I was trying to help her locate an entry point. TOUGH to do via the internet. Tough! It really is about a process of self-discovery. I try to ask questions IRL to help folks locate their own entry points - question, answer, question, answer - it goes faster IRL. I don't have that kind of time via the internet. When typing an answer, I find myself trying to look for clues in what they have written when they asked their question. Tough to do. So my answers aren't always helpful. (Sorry about that!) Anyway - my response to her questions might help. But it might just muddy the waters for you. ;)

 

http://welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2329133#poststop

 

Have fun choosing your path. There are plenty of good ones. And that's a good thing. REALLY! It's a very good thing - we all come to the highway with a wide range of entry points. Finding your personal on-ramp to the highway is one of the first steps. It takes time. But milling around next to the highway for years and years can be very discouraging. Chose a ramp. Turn off your computer, pick up a great book, and try to get onto the highway. :001_smile:

 

Smashed cars are fine in this scenario. Just back up and look for a resource with more hand-holding. Eventually you will find something that will help you GET onto the highway. You'll be reading the great books and engaging in the great conversation on some level. It's OK if you feel like you're cloggin up traffic and driving REALLY slowly at first. That's OK. It's a great feeling - made especially great when you compare it to the milling around in the underbrush next to the highway. Shopping for curriculum pales by comparison when it comes to generating confidence and satisfaction.

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

 

Oh - and a P.S. Once you feel like you have nailed down your own entry point, it's easy to be lulled into a sense of confidence where you set your entry point on a shelf and don't USE IT! You save it for later. Which doesn't really help either. If you aren't reading and learning and DOING this on some level, you will probably find yourself in another three months shopping for more curriculum. There is just something satisfying about shopping. I DON'T GET IT! Really! I don't understand it. But shopping begets shopping. Reading the great books gives confidence. Knowing that you have program XYZ to help you read the Great Books gives confidence at first, but then folks can eventually slide back into shopping again. Reading history and literature will keep you busy. It's the best way to become a better teacher. The best way. It also happens to be the cheapest and the least frustrating - doing THIS will help you avoid shopping for programs to help you do this. You just won't have the time.

 

Gotta go - really. Dd started reading Faulkner yesterday. She's already a chapter ahead of me. And she's working. She's not chatting about working. :001_smile:

Edited February 7, 2011 by Janice in NJ

[johnandtinagilbert]

Hi Bonnie,

 

I think I'm the "woman" in the TOG post. ;)

 

There are tons of options for self-education. Have you read Susan's Well-Educated Mind. If you search the high school boards, you will find many fellow-pilgrims who are putting that text to good use with their high schoolers - Nan comes to mine, but there are others. :001_smile:

 

I found TOG's structure useful. It helped me see how to self-educate while hsing my kids. It helped me immensely. But there are many paths to the same goal. Many.

 

So TOG can be a useful tool. But it won't build the house for you. You still have to do the work. :001_smile:

 

One of the points I was trying to make in that original TOG post was that I wished I had spent less time looking for curriculum that would build the house for me. I wish I had spent more time in the grammar/logic stage whacking boards together with the materials I had. Choosing a program that will help me teach epic poetry can swell to fill YEARS of time - clicking on web sites, endlessly discussing programs, printing samples, (bothering my ds with endless discussions about education and programs. Yup! Me too!:001_smile:), organizing exhaustive reading lists, discussing them, and researching more curriculum SEEMS like it's a good way to understand The Odyssey. Picking up ONE resource and using it to help me READ the Odyssey was a better method. Too hard? Find another resource. Still too hard? Try Oliver Twist. Easier? WHY, Janice???? Why was it easier? Now USE that info to find a resource to help Janice read the Odyssey. Attempting to read the Great Books helped me nail down my own skill level. Where was I? I realized that I needed to learn how to interact with the Great Books if I was going to teach my kids to interact with them. Finding MY entry point was the first step.

 

Researching curriculum didn't actually help as much as I thought it would. Discussing my research didn't move me forward that much. Trying to read the books? Worm-holes! Once you know your own personal entry point, it's easier to choose curriculum to support that entry point. That was the point I was trying to make with the TOG post.

 

This has recently been discussed again here:

http://welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2329133#poststop'>http://welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2329133#poststop'>http://welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2329133#poststop'>http://welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2329133#poststop

 

The OP already has TOG and is looking to self-educate. She had pm'ed me. I posted because I was having trouble pm'ing her back. My pm got too long-winded - like now. :001_smile: But she had written to me about wanting to self-educate. From the note she sent me, I was trying to help her locate an entry point. TOUGH to do via the internet. Tough! It really is about a process of self-discovery. I try to ask questions IRL to help folks locate their own entry points - question, answer, question, answer - it goes faster IRL. I don't have that kind of time via the internet. When typing an answer, I find myself trying to look for clues in what they have written when they asked their question. Tough to do. So my answers aren't always helpful. (Sorry about that!) Anyway - my response to her questions might help. But it might just muddy the waters for you. ;)

 

http://welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2329133#poststop

 

Have fun choosing your path. There are plenty of good ones. And that's a good thing. REALLY! It's a very good thing - we all come to the highway with a wide range of entry points. Finding your personal on-ramp to the highway is one of the first steps. It takes time. But milling around next to the highway for years and years can be very discouraging. Chose a ramp. Turn off your computer, pick up a great book, and try to get onto the highway. :001_smile:

 

Smashed cars are fine in this scenario. Just back up and look for a resource with more hand-holding. Eventually you will find something that will help you GET onto the highway. You'll be reading the great books and engaging in the great conversation on some level. It's OK if you feel like you're cloggin up traffic and driving REALLY slowly at first. That's OK. It's a great feeling - made especially great when you compare it to the milling around in the underbrush next to the highway. Shopping for curriculum pales by comparison when it comes to generating confidence and satisfaction.

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

 

Oh - and a P.S. Once you feel like you have nailed down your own entry point, it's easy to be lulled into a sense of confidence where you set your entry point on a shelf and don't USE IT! You save it for later. Which doesn't really help either. If you aren't reading and learning and DOING this on some level, you will probably find yourself in another three months shopping for more curriculum. There is just something satisfying about shopping. I DON'T GET IT! Really! I don't understand it. But shopping begets shopping. Reading the great books gives confidence. Knowing that you have program XYZ to help you read the Great Books gives confidence at first, but then folks eventually slide back into shopping again. Reading history and literature will keep you busy. It's the best way to become a better teacher. The best way. It also happens to be the cheapest and the least frustrating - doing THIS will help you avoid shopping for programs to help you do this. You just won't have the time. :001_smile:

Janice,

I was just saying the SAME thing to a mom RE:TOG last Friday. If I had spent less time searching and more time learning, I would have been better off. I know trial and error is a part of the process, but it sure helps to know about outstanding programs early on. It sure helps.

[TKDmom]

I think I'm the "woman" in the TOG post.

 

Yes, I went back and looked--someone had linked to one of your posts on the TOG forum, which was what I was referring to.

 

There are tons of options for self-education. Have you read Susan's Well-Educated Mind. If you search the high school boards, you will find many fellow-pilgrims who are putting that text to good use with their high schoolers - Nan comes to mine, but there are others.

I do have WEM. And it's sitting on my to-read bookshelf. I've read the first 4 chapters several times. ;)

 

I found TOG's structure useful. It helped me see how to self-educate while hsing my kids. It helped me immensely. But there are many paths to the same goal. Many.

 

So TOG can be a useful tool. But it won't build the house for you. You still have to do the work. :001_smile:

 

One of the points I was trying to make in that original TOG post was that I wished I had spent less time looking for curriculum that would build the house for me. I wish I had spent more time in the grammar/logic stage whacking boards together with the materials I had. Choosing a program that will help me teach epic poetry can swell to fill YEARS of time - clicking on web sites, endlessly discussing programs, printing samples, (bothering my dh with endless discussions about education and programs. Yup! Me too!:001_smile:), organizing exhaustive reading lists, discussing them, and researching more curriculum SEEMS like it's a good way to understand The Odyssey. Picking up ONE resource and using it to help me READ the Odyssey was a better method. Too hard? Find another resource. Still too hard? Try Oliver Twist. Easier? WHY, Janice???? Why was it easier? Now USE that info to find a resource to help Janice read the Odyssey. Attempting to read the Great Books helped me nail down my own skill level. Where was I? I realized that I needed to learn how to interact with the Great Books if I was going to teach my kids to interact with them. Finding MY entry point was the first step.

 

Researching curriculum didn't actually help as much as I thought it would. Discussing my research didn't move me forward that much. Trying to read the books? Worm-holes! Once you know your own personal entry point, it's easier to choose curriculum to support that entry point. That was the point I was trying to make with the TOG post.

 

This has recently been discussed again here:

http://welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2329133#poststop'>http://welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2329133#poststop'>http://welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2329133#poststop'>http://welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2329133#poststop

 

The OP already has TOG and is looking to self-educate. She had pm'ed me. I posted because I was having trouble pm'ing her back. My pm got too long-winded - like now. :001_smile: But she had written to me about wanting to self-educate. From the note she sent me, I was trying to help her locate an entry point. TOUGH to do via the internet. Tough! It really is about a process of self-discovery. I try to ask questions IRL to help folks locate their own entry points - question, answer, question, answer - it goes faster IRL. I don't have that kind of time via the internet. When typing an answer, I find myself trying to look for clues in what they have written when they asked their question. Tough to do. So my answers aren't always helpful. (Sorry about that!) Anyway - my response to her questions might help. But it might just muddy the waters for you. ;)

 

http://welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2329133#poststop

 

Have fun choosing your path. There are plenty of good ones. And that's a good thing. REALLY! It's a very good thing - we all come to the highway with a wide range of entry points. Finding your personal on-ramp to the highway is one of the first steps. It takes time. But milling around next to the highway for years and years can be very discouraging. Chose a ramp. Turn off your computer, pick up a great book, and try to get onto the highway. :001_smile:

 

Smashed cars are fine in this scenario. Just back up and look for a resource with more hand-holding. Eventually you will find something that will help you GET onto the highway. You'll be reading the great books and engaging in the great conversation on some level. It's OK if you feel like you're cloggin up traffic and driving REALLY slowly at first. That's OK. It's a great feeling - made especially great when you compare it to the milling around in the underbrush next to the highway. Shopping for curriculum pales by comparison when it comes to generating confidence and satisfaction.

 

Peace,

Janice

 

Enjoy your little people

Enjoy your journey

 

Oh - and a P.S. Once you feel like you have nailed down your own entry point, it's easy to be lulled into a sense of confidence where you set your entry point on a shelf and don't USE IT! You save it for later. Which doesn't really help either. If you aren't reading and learning and DOING this on some level, you will probably find yourself in another three months shopping for more curriculum. There is just something satisfying about shopping. I DON'T GET IT! Really! I don't understand it. But shopping begets shopping. Reading the great books gives confidence. Knowing that you have program XYZ to help you read the Great Books gives confidence at first, but then folks can eventually slide back into shopping again. Reading history and literature will keep you busy. It's the best way to become a better teacher. The best way. It also happens to be the cheapest and the least frustrating - doing THIS will help you avoid shopping for programs to help you do this. You just won't have the time.

 

Janice, THANK YOU so much for chiming in!

 

Last night dh and I were talking again (no eye-rolling this time ;)). We talked about several things that you also mentioned in your post. We decided that for next year, I will do my best to implement WTM for history and lit, while I'm also reading deeper in the subjects that we cover. Then if I get to the point where it's just too difficult/frustrating/ineffective/boring/whatever, I'll give TOG a try to see if that will give me the structure that I need.

 

Your post help solidify that this is the right path for me right now. :001_smile:

[Janice in NJ]

Sounds like a great plan. :001_smile:

 

Have fun!

 

Peace,

Janice

[PeterPan]

Ok, I'm gonna be snarky and say one thing, and then I'll be done. Sometimes a dh gives advice because he's tired of hearing about things and just wants to *solve* the problem. He can pick the method when he teaches it. If *you* look at the WTM methods and only feel like you can *try* SIGH, then you need to keep looking. It's way too teacher-driven and specific to have you only be in the *I'll try* camp. You have to be honest with yourself about what you need, and if WTM doesn't provide it, keep looking.

 

I'm not saying you shouldn't do WTM. I'm just saying dh's have different methods of solving problems than us. ;)

 

The best way to figure out what you want to do or what will be right for your family? Stop thinking about it. Totally decide you're not going to deal with it for three more weeks. Put it aside. Leave the boards, and go do lots of things with your kids. Go make brownies and make plans for Easter and do lots of crafts with your SL 3+4. Take long hot showers or soaks in the tub. Look for spring flowers or grow some if there's too much snow. And in a month come back with a fresh mind, think about what you've learned about how your family works best and what you want, and the answer will be obvious. It's very hard to find yourself when you're lost in the crowd of people telling you so many things. There are too many voices. You have to go aside, till everything is still and quiet, and hear the little voice inside saying "Walk this way, this is the way you need to go."

[johnandtinagilbert]

TOG will help you w/ combining your age levels, too and will save you planning time. I'm certain you'll Save time using TOG.

[BlsdMama]

TOG will help you w/ combining your age levels, too and will save you planning time. I'm certain you'll Save time using TOG.

 

 

LOL - really? TWTM took far less prep for me in the lower levels than Tapestry takes! (And I CURRENTLY choose to use TOG, lol.)

 

I will say that Mama using Rhetoric alongside the littles is truly one of the few GOOD reasons I can think of for using Tapestry in the lower levels. That said, I agree with OhElizabeth on just using the reading list. :) You won't need the discussion to draw out the thought process like an inexperienced child would. :)

[siloam]

LOL - really? TWTM took far less prep for me in the lower levels than Tapestry takes! (And I CURRENTLY choose to use TOG, lol.)

 

For me yes, because I would need to read all the books and come up with vocab. We don't do well with vocab programs that work with words out of context, so this is key. I would then add to the mapping, because what I remember in the AG is not that in depth, at least not like TOG. Then I have to choose which books to use for Literature and additional history studies for which child, and if I remember right that is a bit vague in the AG, so I will end up looking up reviews of each one on Amazon to figure out which would be the right level to use.

 

And I don't use the literature worksheets or projects, but that would be a whole new level of pre-reading and constructing analysis, if I did.

 

It really depends on how...obsessive...you are about the details. :D

 

Heather

 

p.s. I did not get any sleep last night, so the brain is foggy at best.

Edited February 7, 2011 by siloam

[johnandtinagilbert]

LOL - really? TWTM took far less prep for me in the lower levels than Tapestry takes! (And I CURRENTLY choose to use TOG, lol.)

 

I will say that Mama using Rhetoric alongside the littles is truly one of the few GOOD reasons I can think of for using Tapestry in the lower levels. That said, I agree with OhElizabeth on just using the reading list. :) You won't need the discussion to draw out the thought process like an inexperienced child would. :)

Yes, really :) TWTM took me a while b/c I had to pull from multiple places. With TOG, I get it all in one spot. I sit with the Reading List open, order the books, print the maps and we're done. Since I am also using it for older dc, there is no real prep time at all for the LG kiddos, besides deciding which activity to complete. I had more leg work with TWTM.

[LaurieM]

Ok, I'm gonna be snarky and say one thing, and then I'll be done. Sometimes a dh gives advice because he's tired of hearing about things and just wants to *solve* the problem. He can pick the method when he teaches it. If *you* look at the WTM methods and only feel like you can *try* SIGH, then you need to keep looking. It's way too teacher-driven and specific to have you only be in the *I'll try* camp. You have to be honest with yourself about what you need, and if WTM doesn't provide it, keep looking.

 

I'm not saying you shouldn't do WTM. I'm just saying dh's have different methods of solving problems than us. ;)

 

The best way to figure out what you want to do or what will be right for your family? Stop thinking about it. Totally decide you're not going to deal with it for three more weeks. Put it aside. Leave the boards, and go do lots of things with your kids. Go make brownies and make plans for Easter and do lots of crafts with your SL 3+4. Take long hot showers or soaks in the tub. Look for spring flowers or grow some if there's too much snow. And in a month come back with a fresh mind, think about what you've learned about how your family works best and what you want, and the answer will be obvious. It's very hard to find yourself when you're lost in the crowd of people telling you so many things. There are too many voices. You have to go aside, till everything is still and quiet, and hear the little voice inside saying "Walk this way, this is the way you need to go."

 

I think this is wonderful advice! I'm now in my last year of homeschooling, (Year 14!) and I wish someone had spoken these words to me long ago. Instead I floundered around for awhile before figuring it out for myself!

[Scuff]

The best way to figure out what you want to do or what will be right for your family? Stop thinking about it. Totally decide you're not going to deal with it for three more weeks. Put it aside. Leave the boards, and go do lots of things with your kids. Go make brownies and make plans for Easter and do lots of crafts with your SL 3+4. Take long hot showers or soaks in the tub. Look for spring flowers or grow some if there's too much snow. And in a month come back with a fresh mind, think about what you've learned about how your family works best and what you want, and the answer will be obvious. It's very hard to find yourself when you're lost in the crowd of people telling you so many things. There are too many voices. You have to go aside, till everything is still and quiet, and hear the little voice inside saying "Walk this way, this is the way you need to go."

 

This has got to be the most brilliant advice I've heard on picking curriculum.

[AngelBee]

This has got to be the most brilliant advice I've heard on picking curriculum.

:iagree:

[TKDmom]

This has got to be the most brilliant advice I've heard on picking curriculum.

 

Yep. You'll notice that I dropped out of this thread. ;) And I'm trying to stay off the forums in general.

 

I came to the same conclusion as Elizabeth--I just need to sit and let things percolate. When I start running around in circles about decisions, I'm probably on the wrong track.