Your opinion: Latin and English Grammar?

[GMB]

Per TWTM, "grammar is the single language-skill that you should study every year through senior high" (p. 482). This was my plan until I was challenged by an editorial written by Martin Cothran in The Classical Teacher (Winter 2010 edition).

 

On page 2, Cothran asserts: "most parents - and most classical educators - are completely unaware that the study of Latin is in large part the study of grammar. And if, in studying Latin, you are studying grammar, then why would you want to spend additional time and educational resources studying grammar in English?"

 

Next year (10th grade), dd and I start Latin I together using Wheelock's text and my mother-in-law as a tutor. So, do I require dd to study Latin with Wheelock and study English grammar with another program? Or do I trust Cothran, who argues that "the best way to study grammar is in a language other than your own" (p.2), a language without many grammatical exceptions, a language like Latin?

 

How many of you agree with Cothran? If you disagree, would you share your reasons?

[coffeegal]

I liked the notion of dropping English grammar since we're studying Latin. In practicality I found I did not know enough English grammar or Latin to make it work. Also, we've found that the Latin reinforces the English grammar. :001_smile:

[KatieH]

I like the idea, but I don't have the guts to do it :P We supplement with a simple grammar program.

[Cindy in NY]

I think by 10th grade your dd has probably had enough exposure to grammar that the grammar in latin should be sufficient.

 

 

My 13 y/o could NEVER remember anything about English grammar. We tried everything, he just couldn't keep it straight. He loves Latin and studies it diligently. As he has progressed further into Latin, I have found that he now understands grammar. Latin forces you to deal with grammar, you can't get around it.

 

There is a nice little book called "English Grammar for Students of Latin" that I have found is a great help for me. It enables me to stay ahead of the game.

[lllll]

..

[forty-two]

I agree with Cothran - studying Latin (grammar-heavy study of any foreign language, really, imo) will involve lots and lots of grammar. And translation done right - where you are concerned with more than just getting all the grammatical relationships right (SWB's logic stage grammar goals), but are also trying to get the same overall effect - would include all the English rhetoric study SWB recommends for high school grammar, too (with bonus Latin rhetorics study, too :thumbup:).

 

The main problems are parents/teachers not having a good enough grasp of English grammar to include it without outside help, and not continuing the Latin study to a high enough level. Because it is not until you are beyond learning the grammar and syntax, but are studying Latin literature as literature that you are at an equivalent level to SWB's high school grammar/rhetoric rec's. And lots of people stop before they get to that point; often they don't even really get into the more difficult syntax - how all the words in the sentence fit together, the focus of SWB's logic stage grammar study - before they stop Latin.

 

This exact thing happened to me - my only grammar study in school was through my two years of Latin. So I did a lot of morphology - all those endings ;) - but not a lot of syntax - how the words in the sentence work together. And now, as I'm studying grammar and linguistics, I find that analyzing morphology is *easy* - but analyzing syntax is *hard*. Because I've never done it before.

 

(And, honestly, I think a lot of people miss SWB's point about grammar being a 1-12 thing - she doesn't mean study parts of speech and syntax for 12 years, but expects that that part will be finished by high school - then you *use* that knowledge in studying the rhetorical effects of particular word and syntax choices.)

 

Anyway, if you are just starting Wheelock's in 11th, you probably won't get to rhetoric-level analysis in Latin before she graduates. And if you've been doing SWB's rec's for English grammar to this point, you should be way beyond the grammar in Wheelock's anyway (which covers SWB's grammar stage and logic stage goals, but doesn't get into rhetorical analysis), so you'd want to continue with your rhetoric stuff, anyway. But if you *haven't* done much grammar, then it's up to you whether you want to just focus on Wheelock's, or if you want to also do a focused English grammar study, with the goal of getting into rhetorical analysis - the effects on the reader of all those grammatical structures - before she graduates.

[Gratia271]

I agree with Mr. Cothran. That is what we have done here, and it has worked quite well. At the same time, I have never subscribed to high school age students having grammar as a daily subject. That should be completed by the end of middle school, after which time said skills are successfully applied in their writing and/or honed via foreign language studies.

[Tullia]

I agree with Mr. Cothran generally, and like a lot of what he has to say. My limitations made it impossible for us to follow his recommendations closely, but they were helpful in some areas. Given the age of your daughter, I would suggest the first thing you need to do is evaluate how well she has mastered English grammar and syntax. Is she ready to move beyond the basics to a formal study of English rhetoric? Depending on where she is with English studies, as you get further into Wheelock's you may find that you have a nearly 50/50 relationship between Latin and English, or that one will become primary leaving the other language to fill a supporting role. The thing I like most about Wheelock's is that it does expose students to elements of Latin rhetorical style all the way through the text.

 

I agree with Mr. Cothran about the value of Latin, but the teacher's grasp (or lack thereof) of both English and Latin grammar and syntax as well as the rhetorical canon of style will dictate how closely any one family will be able to follow his advice. I was self-teaching Latin while teaching with my son and never managed to get very far ahead of him. That meant that we covered the basics of Latin grammar and made a few preliminary studies of literature. My Latin achievements peaked just about the time ds graduated from high school.

 

We did study English grammar formally during middle school, but because Latin was our language study focus English grammar usually took the form of brief review instead of being a full subject. We used the earlier Classical Writing volumes which referred to grammar texts so my son simply used that facet of CW for brief reviews. I did very little teaching of English grammar other than to remind him of Latin equivalents and and make brief assignments which he did very quickly. For the reasons given above, our language focus shifted to English during my son's high school years. However, I'm continuing my studies of Latin--if I had a younger student coming up I'd hope to do more with Latin in high school.

 

For those who want to follow Mr. Cothran's advice, the key is to start early enough that a student enters high school knowing elementary grammar and having a decent grasp of syntax which allows the focus of instruction to move into rhetorical analysis for both Latin and English. Otherwise, you will probably find it necessary to make some adjustments. We certainly did.

 

I'll throw out another thing I gleaned from Arthur Robinson which served me well during our years of hs'ing. I looked at his curriculum, and decided that it wasn't a good fit. However, I do like his idea that you start where you are and do your best to move forward at the best pace you can manage. People move at different rates, and some move along more quickly than others. Some will travel further overall. The key is to keep moving forward as best you can!

 

I may have misunderstood what SWB meant, but I never interpreted her as saying that one needed to endlessly repeat elementary English grammar in the mode of some of the curriculum-in-a-box choices which, IMO, will drive both teacher and student mad. It's been awhile since I read TWTM, but I seem to remember that her recommendations for high school built on instead of merely repeating basics. Remember, too, that if you look at the study of rhetoric as a process, it commences with phonics and copywork, then moves on into basic skills of grammar, syntax, and logic before a student begins to work in a formal way with the canons of rhetoric and analysis of literature. A student will still be using the all the skills learned in earlier years, but will be doing so in increasingly advanced ways.

 

I'll climb off my soapbox now :),

Martha

[GMB]

Remember, too, that if you look at the study of rhetoric as a process, it commences with phonics and copywork, then moves on into basic skills of grammar, syntax, and logic before a student begins to work in a formal way with the canons of rhetoric and analysis of literature. A student will still be using the all the skills learned in earlier years, but will be doing so in increasingly advanced ways.

 

 

Martha:

 

Although this year marks our first entry into classical education, my dd entered 9th grade with a strong grasp of both grammar and syntax. Since we entered the study process late, she is studying both formal logic (using Cothran) and rhetoric (using TWTM recommendations) this year. My mil, a former Latin teacher, will be our Latin mentor during the next 3 years.

 

Thank you for reminding me to view the study of rhetoric as a process. I also appreciate the recommendation to start where we are and move ahead at our pace. Your comments also challenge me to surrender the search for a homeschool "formula".

 

Glad you jumped on the soapbox!

Gina

[Mama Lynx]

My high schooler is studying Latin and Greek, and we have found that to be plenty.

 

He did study a great deal of English grammar in the middle school years.

 

When he writes an awkward or incorrect sentence in English, we diagram it to see why it is awkward, as SWB suggests.

 

We might do a quick English grammar review at some point - but all in all we find Latin and Greek to be supplying PLENTY of grammar. No, it's not the same as English grammar; however it does teach the concepts, and then we can see how those concepts work, or don't work, in English. This comes up a great deal in translation, for instance.

[Gratia271]

My high schooler is studying Latin and Greek, and we have found that to be plenty.

 

He did study a great deal of English grammar in the middle school years.

 

When he writes an awkward or incorrect sentence in English, we diagram it to see why it is awkward, as SWB suggests.

 

We might do a quick English grammar review at some point - but all in all we find Latin and Greek to be supplying PLENTY of grammar. No, it's not the same as English grammar; however it does teach the concepts, and then we can see how those concepts work, or don't work, in English. This comes up a great deal in translation, for instance.

 

:iagree:I have taken the same approach with my oldest. Her Latin and Greek studies reinforce English grammatical concepts she has mastered.

[Nan in Mass]

I think it depends what you mean by grammar. Or what you want to gain by a study of grammar. If you mean how to punctuate and capitalize in English, then Latin alone won't work. If you mean how to read and write more complex sentence structures, or grammatically correct sentence structures (knowing when to say whom and knowing to say it was he) then yes, I think Latin is sufficient. At least, it was for us. We did hardly any English grammar at all. My family speaks fairly standard English, so I wasn't worried at all about English grammar, and the children seemed to have no problem with Shakespeare or other less usual word orders, so that didn't worry me. They tangled their sentences unnecessarily when writing, and had trouble punctuating them, but I found that the grammar vocabulary we learned from Latin (nominative, etc.) worked fine for explaining things like that. They were super aware of how word order and choice affect the meaning of a sentence, so I didn't think we needed grammar to explain that. We didn't need the English grammar in order to study Latin because our Latin program assumed that its students did not know any grammar terms and explained them from scratch. I have to say, though, that my children seem to be quite bright about picking up grammatical patterns. Of all the talents, it isn't one I would have chosen GRIN. Latin took forever not because we had any trouble understanding the grammar, but because we had trouble remembering the grammar and vocabulary. Sigh.

-Nan

Edited January 30, 2011 by Nan in Mass

[mjbucks1]

I just want to add that if you are using Wheelock's Latin, it does assume that you know grammar (subject, verb, direct object, indirect object, object of a preposition, etc). I think it would be easier if a student had a good grasp on these before starting. But if you have the basics down, then Latin will be a great review, and I would see no need for further grammar study. Just my humble opinion :).

[angela in ohio]

There is a nice little book called "English Grammar for Students of Latin" that I have found is a great help for me. It enables me to stay ahead of the game.

 

My dd is using this book this year with Wheelock's, and it is working out well.

 

She did R&S English for 3-8. Now we do grammar through writing and Latin mostly. We use Warriner's and Moutoux's diagramming materials(and a bit of R&S 9 to review. There is also quite a bit of grammar, as pp have said, in the study of rhetoric.

 

Honestly, the Latin would probably be enough grammar, but I want overkill. :001_smile:

[GMB]

My dd is using this book this year with Wheelock's, and it is working out well.

 

She did R&S English for 3-8. Now we do grammar through writing and Latin mostly. We use Warriner's and Moutoux's diagramming materials(and a bit of R&S 9 to review. There is also quite a bit of grammar, as pp have said, in the study of rhetoric.

 

Honestly, the Latin would probably be enough grammar, but I want overkill. :001_smile:

 

Cindy and Angela:

 

Thanks for recommending this book. I just ordered it from Amazon.com. We already have Warriner's, so I hope we are good to go.

 

Gina

[Rosie_0801]

I think it depends what kind of learner you have. Dh and I have been wanting to learn Latin. There is no way I would ever be able to do that without having done English grammar first. So I'm nearly finished the first season of Analytical Grammar and our Latin books should arrive this week or next! Dh tried doing grammar with me, to keep me company but he gave it up. For him, it is busywork. He hardly retained any of it because it wasn't immediately useful. When he comes across some Latin exercise that says to put such and such a suffix on the end of predicate adjectives, he'll go and work out what a predicate adjective is. I think he's weird, but he thinks I am ;)

 

Rosie

[G5052]

And I chosen to back off on grammar during the school year to allow for the intensity of Latin.

 

Over the summer they do some English grammar review oriented towards writing because I think you can never have enough practice on usage, punctuation, etc.

 

Doing both at once though -- no way.