TheAutumnOak Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) Hi All... I am very discouraged about my son's comprehension...He is having a hard time with the math he is doing and it is from the second grade...He is having a hard time understanding that a+b=c / c-a=b / c-b=a He justs gets the problems wrong and says he can't understand...If he can't add it up in his head, he can't figure out the answer...It doesn't matter how many practice problems we do...Now he is in there playing with his brothers without even caring that he can't figure it out... He is in the 5th grade...Do we need to go back to 1st grade work?...I just don't know what to do...He struggles with simple stuff everyday and it is very discouraging...Even if I considered school, he would be put in special ed at this rate... Sorry if the tone of this sounds mean...I just am really frustrated, in the moment, and not sure what to do... Edited January 25, 2011 by TheAutumnOak forgot the "v" in very Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poke Salad Annie Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I don't have exact answers for you, but it might be helpful to cross-post this on the special needs board. I remember you were trying to get caught up with this little guy, and have been wondering how things were going for you. I'm sorry it's not yet better. :grouphug: Have you had him tested for LD? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matryoshka Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Have you tried the triangle flash cards (where you use the same card for addition and subtraction facts - you just hold your thumb over a different corner)? I never even taught subtraction as a separate concept from addition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAutumnOak Posted January 25, 2011 Author Share Posted January 25, 2011 Thanks Annie... I have never had him tested for a LD...I am thinking that we should... Just another set back.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAutumnOak Posted January 25, 2011 Author Share Posted January 25, 2011 I never even heard of triangle flash cards...He seems to understand basic addition and subtraction, he just can't do word problems or "figure out" anything...He can't transfer knowledge in one area to the next area if that makes sense... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LinRTX Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I don't know if it would help, but have you tried manipulatives? I have my daughter work with cuisanaire(sp?) rods, but you could try dried beans even. Write the problem down and have him work it out with groups of beans. Have him show all possibilities. Do this several times. Then start with the beans and you work with them. Have him write out the problem you are showing. Do this several times. Then ask him it in general terms. "If I ad any two numbers, is the answer going to be bigger or smaller?" Do you see any relationship between the numbers? Does it matter if I start with 3 beans and add 4, or if I start with 4 beans and add three?" Continue this line of reasoning. Let him reason out the relationship. I hope this helps some. Linda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matryoshka Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I never even heard of triangle flash cards...He seems to understand basic addition and subtraction, he just can't do word problems or "figure out" anything...He can't transfer knowledge in one area to the next area if that makes sense... I'm not sure how to help with the larger issue if it's an LD? but you can get free triangle flash cards at donnayoung.org - I printed them out on cardstock. For word problems, I found Math Detective helpful - it walks kids through word problems step-by-step, and has them look for "clues" in the problem for what they should be doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poke Salad Annie Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Thanks Annie... I have never had him tested for a LD...I am thinking that we should... Just another set back.... I think there are ways to get the testing done for free through your school district, but you might not want to get them involved. Again, hopefully someone on the SN board will know the answers for you or can help more. One place you might look into is a local university child development office. I have had some questions answered there and found information which was helpful to me. At least they might be able to point you in the right direction, which would be a start.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tangomoon Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Triangle flashcards are a good suggestion. Depending on your son's learning style, I wonder if using colors might help with the concept a+b = c / c-b = a / c - a = b blue + yellow = green, green - yellow = blue, green - blue = yellow Or putting it in some sort of other way to help explain. Maybe use manipulatives to rearrange these . . . kids (3) + parents (2) = family (5) family - kids = parents family - parents = kids Just some suggestions! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelBee Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 He has had a LOT of change schooling wise. I think he may just need time to find his groove. Be patient and keep trying to find new ways of presenting the material until it clicks. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwilliams Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 It seems that you mentioned in a previous post that you used the Waldorf philosophy previously which seemed less structured. If this is true......I do not think you should think your child may be LD until he has had enough instruction. My son has had a very structured math program since kindergarten and only this year(3/4) truly grasped math families fully. He could add and subtract and complete most activities but when you changed the format of the math family activity he had to be shown all over again. I have a computer game (free on a website) that helped him practice everyday. That seemed to be the one activity that helped him get it. I do not know how to post links but if you are interested I can get the website to you. Another math activity he does daily that really helps with generalization is daily word problems. It is an actual book called Daily word Problems and I started him off below grade level to build mastery and interest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelBee Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 It seems that you mentioned in a previous post that you used the Waldorf philosophy previously which seemed less structured. If this is true......I do not think you should think your child may be LD until he has had enough instruction. My son has had a very structured math program since kindergarten and only this year(3/4) truly grasped math families fully. He could add and subtract and complete most activities but when you changed the format of the math family activity he had to be shown all over again. I have a computer game (free on a website) that helped him practice everyday. That seemed to be the one activity that helped him get it. I do not know how to post links but if you are interested I can get the website to you. Another math activity he does daily that really helps with generalization is daily word problems. It is an actual book called Daily word Problems and I started him off below grade level to build mastery and interest. :iagree: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poke Salad Annie Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) Sorry, I forgot about the previous mention of Waldorf. I'm not so familiar with it, so I may have posted in haste about checking for LDs--which I certainly do not mean to trounce on for the first option. Edited January 25, 2011 by Poke Salad Annie did not come out the way I meant it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jyniffrec Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 He has had a LOT of change schooling wise. I think he may just need time to find his groove. Be patient and keep trying to find new ways of presenting the material until it clicks. :grouphug: :iagree: I try to come at Math from several different angles. This has improved my instruction vastly. And sometimes I just need to provide the answer until they catch on to the patterns. My fifth grader is in third grade math and that is okay with me because she is finally grasping the concepts. I hope you get this worked out soon. I know full well how frustrating it can be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ElizabethB Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 He has had a LOT of change schooling wise. I think he may just need time to find his groove. Be patient and keep trying to find new ways of presenting the material until it clicks. :grouphug: It seems that you mentioned in a previous post that you used the Waldorf philosophy previously which seemed less structured. If this is true......I do not think you should think your child may be LD until he has had enough instruction. My son has had a very structured math program since kindergarten and only this year(3/4) truly grasped math families fully. He could add and subtract and complete most activities but when you changed the format of the math family activity he had to be shown all over again. I have a computer game (free on a website) that helped him practice everyday. That seemed to be the one activity that helped him get it. I do not know how to post links but if you are interested I can get the website to you. Another math activity he does daily that really helps with generalization is daily word problems. It is an actual book called Daily word Problems and I started him off below grade level to build mastery and interest. :iagree: Keep working on the basics and explaining it different ways. My daughter needed to be shown borrowing and carrying about 1 million times and 100 different ways before it clicked. We are currently working up to that level for long division... My son needs this level of repetition for phonics. You might try some Kahn academy movies to give yourself a break and let someone else explain it a different way. :grouphug: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsquirrel Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 Here is my suggestion, take it for what it is worth. Seeing as he is 10-ish, I would start with a couple things. First, I would look into what kind of testing for LD is available for a hs child in your state and district. I am not saying you should take advantage if it is available, but I do think it would be good to have a timeline in mind. For example, if he doesn't seem to be picking up skills by march (I made this up) then start the ball rolling to get him evaluated. I am a fan of waldorf method. I do think that the delayed academics can also delay any detection of problems. I am not quick to jump to "this kid has a problem' but his age and the example you are giving makes me uneasy. At his age, it shouldn't be that much work for him to understand a math problem of that level. Is it definitive? No. But it doesn't sit right. So, that is the first thing. THe second thing is to continue if you can with the program you are using but supplement with a very basic workbook. I am thinking something like a Kumon book (available at Border's bookstore or B&N) at a kindergarten level. I would put tape over the level etc so he doesn't feel funny about it. Can he count up to 120 without any mistakes? Can he write his numbers? Can he count by 2s and 5s and 10s? Does he understand place value? Don't make him do the whole darn workbook if it becomes obvious that he can do the work. Get a first grade addition book and have him go through it. Don't work him like mad, just get a good 20 mins a day out of him. I am not above giving out rewards for doing scutt work with a good attitude but every family is different. I would personally consider taking a break from my current math program and spending 8 weeks doing foundational work. But, if I didn't see any improvement, I would look into getting some outside help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siloam Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 I never even heard of triangle flash cards...He seems to understand basic addition and subtraction, he just can't do word problems or "figure out" anything...He can't transfer knowledge in one area to the next area if that makes sense... With story problems I write out the key words on a 3x5 card that they are allowed to reference. Here are the key words on Purple Math. Just figuring out what operation is being done can be tough. Over time my oldest two have given them back to me because they don't use them anymore. Now my 2nd dd is 5th grade, but she has had the cards since 2nd, so that is three years of use. Other things I do is have them list what they know. This is totally unnecessary but it gives their little brains time to chew on the problem. Sometimes it will click. I also try to have them draw it in some way. Last does he see numbers and quantities in his mind? For a child that lacks that ability On Cloud Nine can teach them how to use visualization skills to do math. You probably would only need the TM and could apply it to what ever math program you are using now. Oh! Not last. :D Have you tried something like Hands on Equations (HOE)? It is more heading towards algebra, but learning how to use something physical to represent something in a story problem might open up doors for him. My oldest can mentally do algebra, but she is very easily overwhelmed emotionally. I have been doing one HOE problem a day with her. Ok I more read the problem aloud and let her work it and only step in if I have to. It is helping her see she can do it, and again giving her the tools to see story problems and algebra in a physical way. Heather Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Testimony Posted January 25, 2011 Share Posted January 25, 2011 You know, math can be challenging. My younger son is the one who throws me. I want to give some suggestions to help. Just to tell you, the Bluedorns, which is another classical approach, does not agree with using a math textbook before age 10 years old. That does not mean you do no math. It means there are other ways of teaching math. I wonder how about getting away from the book and just play games with him. We did the cash register game. We use play Monopoly a lot. This is what we did. We had my younger son always be the banker. We would give him more than the amount asked for which forced him to make change. It is a great way to teach them math. Also Scrabble, it is wonderful. They have to not only spell words, but add up their points. Once again, my younger son was the score keeper. We play the card game 21 (or Blackjack). It is so easy and so much fun because they have to try and total up the cards without going over 21. It is a great way to learn adding and subtracting. Math is everywhere. So many things I have used. I struggle with my younger son a lot with math. He understands things and then he forgets. He learns and then we have to relearn. I do the IOWA tests with him each year. Last year, he finally did well in math!!! I think something finally clicked. Finally, my favorite math manipulative that I use with my son and that is money! Right now, I am showing him money to help him to understand tenths and hundredths. He told me that he understands. He does the problem and then Singapore math those a monkey wrench in their problems and he is confused. Just to tell you, I search on Google images for money. I got pictures of $1, $10, and $100 dollar bills. I printed them out and did place value, carrying, and borrowing. I use the clock to teach the five time table. I use the clock to teach simple fractions. I hope that helps.:grouphug: Blessings, Karen http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAutumnOak Posted January 26, 2011 Author Share Posted January 26, 2011 Thanks everyone for all of the advice... DH came home and spent an hour with him tonight going over the word problem and missing number problems from today...They were able to get through the problems...I am not sure how much he has retained, but we will review tomorrow... I will continue with him and see how things go...His schooling has changed alot...I still think he should be able to understand certain things, and will monitor how things are going...His first grade teacher at the Waldorf school thinks that it is possible that he has auditory processing issues...I got the number of an audiologist in our area...Until he gets tested, we will just continue on... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
laughing lioness Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 I would do flash cards or quarter mile math until he has the basics down cold. Story/word problems can be really difficult for kids regardless of how well they have their math facts down. It is asking them to apply and manipulate the info that they know- it's taking the work to a new level. If he's 10 and still fully operating in a concrete mode thinking abstractly could be a real challenge from a developmental (vs. LD) stand-point. Do you write out the fact families so that he can see them? I would use as many senses as you can as you teach- math CD's, manipulatives. I would also invest in some other math skills stuff- like Singapores Story Problems worksheets- start a grade level or 2 behind and build up. Thinking Skills has some fantastic stuff in various areas - to build up your sons ability to "see" math from different angles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
walkermamaof4 Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 We have a 5th grader in the same boat. I bought the full light blue Math mammoth series. I started her in grade 3 and wish now we had started at the beginning. We moved at a fast pace. Then someone on the forum suggested I also review with it too. So now we are doing MM5 but every day she repeats one of the cumulative reviews from grade 3 or grade 4. It is helping! She is repeating the same reviews again and again and is getting most right after the 3rd or 4th time doing the same review. I have her doing all the way through all the reviews of that grade before she repeats them usually. I found I also need to be with her the entire time she works so i can stop her from doing a whole page wrong. We draw lots and lots of bar diagrams. I bought a book of them from amazon about Singapore Approach to Model Diagramming or something like that. We worked through a lot of it too. I think the triangle cards are not the answer here. Mine knows the facts cold. It is comprehension that is the problem for her, not facts. She doesn't "see" that problem that you described. We've been working hard on "seeing" using bar diagrams since maybe April and we do it for a long time every day. Just now she is starting to get some right totally on her own. HTH! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jyniffrec Posted January 26, 2011 Share Posted January 26, 2011 We have a 5th grader in the same boat. I bought the full light blue Math mammoth series. I started her in grade 3 and wish now we had started at the beginning. We moved at a fast pace. Then someone on the forum suggested I also review with it too. So now we are doing MM5 but every day she repeats one of the cumulative reviews from grade 3 or grade 4. It is helping! She is repeating the same reviews again and again and is getting most right after the 3rd or 4th time doing the same review. I have her doing all the way through all the reviews of that grade before she repeats them usually. I found I also need to be with her the entire time she works so i can stop her from doing a whole page wrong. We draw lots and lots of bar diagrams. I bought a book of them from amazon about Singapore Approach to Model Diagramming or something like that. We worked through a lot of it too. I think the triangle cards are not the answer here. Mine knows the facts cold. It is comprehension that is the problem for her, not facts. She doesn't "see" that problem that you described. We've been working hard on "seeing" using bar diagrams since maybe April and we do it for a long time every day. Just now she is starting to get some right totally on her own. HTH! Although I am not the OP, it helps me! I just bought some review sheets from MM for my 5th grader. After reading your post I may go ahead and start buying the program in bits and pieces and take a similar approach that you have. Math has been a sore subject between us since she was 5 years old. :tongue_smilie: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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