New to this: Learning Disabilities

[Erica in PA]

(This is a crosspost from the General Board.)

 

I'm reaching the conclusion that my 8 yod isn't just a late bloomer, but may have an actual learning disability. As I've posted before, she is extremely verbal/auditory, but her reading and writing skills just aren't progressing the way they should be. She's just barely able to read early first grade level readers, with help. There is a huge gap between what most people would consider her intelligence, and her performance in school. When I read checklists of symptoms of learning disabilities, she seems to have most of them. So... what do I do first ? A friend told me about vision therapy, and dd has an appt. with a dr. there on Tuesday to see if that will help. But what else should I do? Where should she be tested for, and for what? Should I go through the public school system, or do this privately? If I do go through the public school, will we be obligated to then use their services or be more accountable to them in some way? If anyone has btdt, I would love to hear about how you dealt with this sort of issue. Any good websites with info on homeschooling children with learning difficulties would be appreciated too.

[sweetsouthern]

hi! i can offer too much advice, but i'll do my best :) your in my shoes about 6 months ago lol! always thought dd 10 was a late bloomer ... her reading and writing skills were slowly slipping away and we were doing more and more repeat work then anything. for reading others here suggested redoing phonics (we used phonics for reading). that helped her tremendously. we did come to figure out through searching and asking that dd is most likely dyslexic and dysgraphic and as we learned today almost certianly has aspergers too! (we have known for years shes has ADHD). we havent pursued to much for testing yet, we have an appt in march.

 

so hugs!! and hope someone here can give u some more answers!

[Team Litwin]

I would look in your area for a phsycologist who can do a full battery of tests. This will tell you exactly what's wrong and where to concentrate your money and time. You should also look into an eye exam with a real optomotrist ( i know i spelled that wrong, but i am moving on). Between these exams my ds was discovered to have audio processing issues, visual processing issues, dyslexia, dysgraphia, ADHD, ODD, and more I am probably forgetting. You can go through your school district (its free) and no you don't have to accept their recommendations or help. You simply sign a piece of paper saying you are going with a private therapist. However, that report / IEP will stay in the system forever, and ever. You can google homeschooling and learning disabilities and get some great sites. A few that I like referring to are NATHHAN, A blog The Renegade Scholar, and of course the Well Trained Mind forums. Don't be put off of a site simply because it doesn't sound exactly like what your dd is going through. There is so much cross-content into other areas that it really makes sense to search through all of them. And I agree with the previous poster, start with phonics and phenomes. Do the basics, go over the sound the letter makes. Games like find 5 things in the house that start with the sound /b/ (buh). You can do the same for the end sound, etc. Hope this helps a little, gotta run, my little guy needs my attention. Stay positive.

[PeterPan]

Well what are you using with her? What have you tried, and what do you suspect are her problems? That's great that you're getting a VT evaluation. Be sure to update this thread with whatever you learn at your evaluation! You can see what they say, but if they think you need VT, then I would do that and an OG program and wait on the rest. It's not like you can do so many things at once anyway. The VT will refer you for OT if they think you need that. It's a process to work through.

[Erica in PA]

Well what are you using with her? What have you tried, and what do you suspect are her problems? That's great that you're getting a VT evaluation. Be sure to update this thread with whatever you learn at your evaluation! You can see what they say, but if they think you need VT, then I would do that and an OG program and wait on the rest. It's not like you can do so many things at once anyway. The VT will refer you for OT if they think you need that. It's a process to work through.

 

I'm using First Reader for phonics, with review phonics flashcards as we go. She reads aloud from level 1 readers daily. She seems to be responding fairly well to this, and I've seen some improvement recently in her reading. We're just using basic curriculum overall-- 2nd grade Abeka spelling (she can do the daily work fine but has trouble on the tests), just started Horizons math 3 today. Math concepts are her best subject; she only needs help with the reading in the workbook. We do science and history mostly orally since she has problems with reading and writing.

 

I don't know what her problem will turn out to be. I know that she has problems reading (remembering the sounds of letters and the look of sight words), trouble copying from one page to another, very hard time remembering how to spell words when taking tests or just writing in general, holding her pencil correctly, and there is something about her short term memory for details that is a problem... for example, learning AWANA verses is very, very difficult for her. We can spend hours over several days working on one verse, and she still won't learn it. However, she is excellent at narration and can retell the main events of a story very well. So it's something with details, especially details that don't have a logical flow. She has an excellent vocabulary and is very verbal. She can answer critical thinking questions very well. So it's something with reading and some kinds of memory, as far as I can see.

 

I'm really anxious for the VT consult today-- we're going to find out the results of her test. Also, what is OG?

[PeterPan]

OG means Orton-Gillingham. People use it loosely to refer to anything in that style of approach: SWR, AAS, WRTR, actual OG, Wilson, Barton... You might google Barton and do some reading on their site. Even if you decide you don't need to do Barton, you'll still learn a ton. They have a free pre-test you can do, etc.

[newbie]

I dont know PA well, so I dont know how amenable they are to services.

 

But, if she is ps'ed currently request an IEP, then there is a reply time. Set up an appt. At the appt, request testing be done by a neuropsych, speech therapist and vision therapist. They should have these on staff w/in the district, if they refuse, state you will get your own and they will have to pay, but its a lil battle.

 

There is another 60 day period to set up all testing, watch over them, b/c they like to drag feet, especially around holiday time. Set up another IEP after you look at tests and can figure them out. Dont walk in blind. B/c they will dictate what happens, kind of like a used car salesman.

 

Figure out where the gaps are and request services, they are best thru school, b/c they are very expensive, if the school does not provide again you can demand private. You have to be vigilant, your best friend is wrightslaw.com, buy the book or start w/the set, that is your cheapest option, it will explain tests and IEP help.

 

I advocate for children and it is a battle, but starting early is your best bet. B/c if services are needed it can last thru adulthood.

[Erica in PA]

I dont know PA well, so I dont know how amenable they are to services.

 

But, if she is ps'ed currently request an IEP, then there is a reply time. Set up an appt. At the appt, request testing be done by a neuropsych, speech therapist and vision therapist. They should have these on staff w/in the district, if they refuse, state you will get your own and they will have to pay, but its a lil battle.

 

There is another 60 day period to set up all testing, watch over them, b/c they like to drag feet, especially around holiday time. Set up another IEP after you look at tests and can figure them out. Dont walk in blind. B/c they will dictate what happens, kind of like a used car salesman.

 

Figure out where the gaps are and request services, they are best thru school, b/c they are very expensive, if the school does not provide again you can demand private. You have to be vigilant, your best friend is wrightslaw.com, buy the book or start w/the set, that is your cheapest option, it will explain tests and IEP help.

 

I advocate for children and it is a battle, but starting early is your best bet. B/c if services are needed it can last thru adulthood.

 

Thank you for the information. Dd is homeschooled-- is the procedure different from what you described above?

[Shay]

Just to say a word about First Reader (and most other phonics programs and/or primers such as HOP, OPGTR, PP, etc,). These programs work well for children that do not struggle and reading comes easy to them. They do not have the needed support for those who struggle. So, although it *is* phonics, it may not be near enough to get the child reading.

 

My son (in ps, probably mildly dyslexic, but now remediated) did First Reader for a couple weeks, and then I ditched it because there was no real progress. Started Reading Reflex and saw immediate improvement. Then, we hit a stalling point and started with I See Sam. This combination got him reading. Although he now reads well, you can still see remnants of his troubles with his spelling, but I address this with Barton. After not doing well with contraction words in his 2nd grade classroom, I had him watch Susan Barton teach it one evening and he "got it."

 

I tutor 4th grade ps children with Barton, and I see results. Many of the activities with the tiles remind me of Reading Reflex, yet you get more support and the DVD's can't be beat. You go from sound to symbol, and from symbol to sound. You are instructed to make little picture mneumonics for sight words that give the dc problems, and you only work in batches of 3 at a time. All of this is easier on the memory. As a homeschooling parent, you can keep the confusing methods and pace out and away from your child, whereas the children I tutor must deal with all of it. I'd really recommend you give it a try if you can financially swing it.

 

HTH.

[Stacy in NJ]

This is hard advice to give. I really hesitate to post on these types of thread because I know my advice will some times be unwelcome. I do want to offer an alternative perspective, though, so here goes.

 

While an evaluation for ld's may provide some specific information about some of your dd's difficulties, they are by no means a panacea or the magic pill. Many of the "therapies" recommended for kiddos with ld's have no confirmed scientific validity, vision therapy being the primary culprit.

 

Please be very cautious as you move forward. Invest your time and money wisely. It sounds to me like you are consistently, persistently working with your dd on a level that's appropriate for her. Whatever you choose to do with regards to therapies or evaluation, I encourage you to continue to just read and write togther as you have been doing.

 

Here's a link to a pretty old thread where several of us discussed the value of testing vs. not testing and vision therapy vs. no vision therapy.

 

http://welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33711&highlight=Stacy

 

HTH, Stacy

Edited January 19, 2011 by Stacy in NJ

[siloam]

I don't know what her problem will turn out to be. I know that she has problems reading (remembering the sounds of letters and the look of sight words), trouble copying from one page to another, very hard time remembering how to spell words when taking tests or just writing in general, holding her pencil correctly, and there is something about her short term memory for details that is a problem... for example, learning AWANA verses is very, very difficult for her. We can spend hours over several days working on one verse, and she still won't learn it. However, she is excellent at narration and can retell the main events of a story very well. So it's something with details, especially details that don't have a logical flow. She has an excellent vocabulary and is very verbal. She can answer critical thinking questions very well. So it's something with reading and some kinds of memory, as far as I can see.

A couple of thoughts.

 

This could be an signs of an auditory processing problem or a visual one. If it is auditory she probably can't pass the Barton screening, so I would try giving her that, focusing on the third section. If she can't pass it then she really needs LiPS to train her in how letters sound, look and feel.

 

If it is visual then it will come in time. I recommend you practice with multi-sensory methods. This is the process I use with my ds:

 

1. say sound, child repeats.

2. show child flashcard of letter, say sound, child repeats sound.

3. set card down and have child write letter in sand (less motor control) while saying the sound.

4. have child write letter in air with index and middle finger while saying the sound.

5. have the child close eyes and try to "see" the letter in their mind and again say the sounds.

 

It takes forever at first, but once they know they routine it goes pretty quickly. It works on hearing the sound and recalling the letter, seeing the sound and recalling the letter and recalling the letter while writing.

 

Tedious but it works.

 

Spelling is generally auditory, if her problems is remembering the letters the above should help, but if her problem is hearing the letters then you are back to LiPS to train her to hear the difference between sounds using more than just her hearing.

 

Copywork is visual, and many dyslexic students struggle with it. I personally have copied a passage two words at a time and still managed to substitute a for the, and his for him and such. Isn't that close enough? :D It just gets jumbled in the mental pathways.

 

When you compare narration and Bible memory work, the most striking thing to me is that with narration she is probably creating a picture in her mind to go with it that allows her to replay and answer your questions. With many Bible verses that isn't possible so she has nothing beyond the auditory input to remember it by.

 

From what you have posted I would guess that she is an auditory dyslexic or CAPD and maybe a touch of visual dyslexia too. Does she every struggle with telling the difference between when to use short i and when to use short e? Can she hear both sounds in blends? Does she confuse sounds like p/b, t/th, a/u? Does she ask you to repeat directions, especially if they are multi-step?

Does ever pause like she is collecting her thoughts before answering you? All these would be common with auditory processing problems.

 

Be careful with the vision exam. Not all vision professional recognize a difference between vision problems (teaming, focus, tracking) and processing problems (eyes work properly but the information is "corrupted" in the brain). I took my 2nd dd in, "just in case," and she went through 4+ months of VT with no changes. But unlike the other people I knew who went in the doctor couldn't give me a specific problem. She just said they could help improve her vision.

 

Personally once was trying to read a web page with a black background and white letters of some sort of Roman font. Where the letters were thin it would was out completely and what was left would blur. You would think it was a vision problem, but there was one word in the same font that I could read perfectly. They had continue written in red. White and yellow have always given me problems and the blue, red and purple tones I process correctly. The theory is that the brain is processing some colors faster than others, causing distortions.

 

VT corrects vision problems not processing problems. If you get a good doctor they can tell the difference.

 

Hope this helps! Let us know what you learn.

 

Heather

[ElizabethB]

If you've done sight words along with phonics, that can cause a problem for some students that is not a LD, just a problem with the method.

 

If this is the case, a few months of work with phonics using nonsense words and spelling and syllables can fix the problem. And, if there is some kind of an underlying problem, nonsense words and syllables are helpful for many types of problems, so you will not be doing any harm by trying it out.

 

My online lessons and my how to tutor page are good places to start.

Edited January 19, 2011 by ElizabethB

[HeidiD]

Be careful with the vision exam. Not all vision professional recognize a difference between vision problems (teaming, focus, tracking) and processing problems (eyes work properly but the information is "corrupted" in the brain). I took my 2nd dd in, "just in case," and she went through 4+ months of VT with no changes. But unlike the other people I knew who went in the doctor couldn't give me a specific problem. She just said they could help improve her vision.

 

 

 

 

Heather, can you please elaborate a bit on this?

 

 

Does VT address any other issues besides teaming, focus, and tracking? I get the impression that some therapists will prescribe VT whether you need it or not.

 

 

Before making an appointment with a therapist, is there a way to make an educated guess as to whether the problem is processing rather than visual by observing a child's behavior (while reading and writing, for instance)?

 

 

Or are there any particular questions we could ask our kids regarding their experiences while reading, etc. that might provide us with some insight as to whether the problem is processing rather than visual, before we go so far as to make an appointment?

 

 

(I've already had one of my kids checked by an optometrist who said his depth perception and peripheral vision were normal, even though the opposite appears to be the case! Yet he puts his face really close to the page while reading.)

[PeterPan]

Heidi, a regular optometrist screens for these issues where the developmental optometrist goes in-depth. I don't quite understand Siloam's comment on distinguishing eye team, convergence, etc. from processing, as our VT doc thoroughly evaluated both. Honestly, I think Siloam just came across one of the bad docs. She has said repeatedly the doc gave no concrete evidence of a problem but still wanted to do therapy. And if you read more of her posts on her experience, they involved extremely little homework, few exercises, etc. That certainly wasn't like our experience, and it doesn't match the experiences of others who have posted here about doing VT. Our VT doc had instruments to show us EXACTLY what was going on. We could see it for ourselves and had no doubt. Two, they had tests to show the visual processing issues, and they explained to us at what point in the therapy they were working on convergence/focusing/etc. vs. when they were working on processing. We had tons of homework and went through literally hundreds of exercises, tools, games, etc.

 

So did you have your VT evaluation yet? You said you were having that Tuesday. Was that yesterday or next week? With a good VT doc and clearly identified problems you can get FABULOUS results. I just can't explain the extreme change. Just for your interest, here's a video at a site someone had mentioned a while back. It's short, but it shows things very similar to what we did. http://www.brighteyesnews.com/category/vision-therapy/page/2/ To me the main issue is knowing if you have a good VT doc. Are they a member of COVD? Did they offer clear explanations of what is wrong? Did they take you to their therapy room and show you what they do? Do you have feedback from other people who have used them?

 

I'm not sure the auditory processing is quite as pat as it sounds. My dd is an auditory processor, meaning she thinks in words and avoids usually visual methods. (VT found this.) But she still prefers learning visually, ie. she's a visual learner. She passes the Barton screening easily, but she does not visualize well from auditory input. She can now visualize from written input, but she still has difficulty visualizing from auditory. So those are a bunch of nuances, and I don't mean to overwhelm you, lol. What I'm really trying to say is these things aren't pat. It just takes time to work through them. There's probably not just *1* issue. The more capable your dc is, the more you find yourself saying "Yeah, but she OUGHT to be able to do this." And when there's that discrepancy, you keep looking. So take things one step at a time. Get the VT evaluation and see where that gets you. If you leave convinced there's a problem and you feel the doc is a good one, then do that. Then you see what the next thing is. During our VT we did horseriding, which was extremely beneficial (core strength, etc.) and some things at home for bilaterality. Later we added in OT and my ds's SLP (speech therapy) to the mix. That was *too* much! You just can't do too much at once. So just take small steps, learn some things, then do the next thing that becomes obvious.

[ElizabethB]

Sight words cause problems for about 30% of students. So, you could teach all of your children the same way, and only some of them would have problems from the sight words.

 

With my remedial students, after remediation, I've also seen a improvement in their other subjects and their ability to memorize.

[siloam]

 

Does VT address any other issues besides teaming, focus, and tracking? I get the impression that some therapists will prescribe VT whether you need it or not.

 

I honestly don't know. I suspect it depends on the individual. I know that the person that OhElizabeth is seeing is much more of an Occupational Therapist, or that is the way it sounds to me. They have gone much further than anything that was ever done for my dd.

 

It was several years ago that we had the therapy done for my 2nd dd and at that time I had never heard of anyone turned away who went in for a VT check. I spoke to my Ophthalmologist about this and his opinion was that it is because it is normal for the eyes to take time to fully develop, and to have some minor issues is not a big deal. The big issues that a few kids have are a separate issues that probably won't self correct. His bigger concern is that there are no studies into the field yet, they were just getting started on a few a couple years ago, but they won't have long term results for a long time. The point is they have no idea how it will effect a child long term. Doing VT just to speed up their development might not be the best idea. Most of the people who had kids with serious issues tend to see other side effect. Like I have a friend who's child had weekly migraines. Some have children who liked to read in really odd positions. But there are still those who just don't realize they have a problem and it isn't caught till they are evaluated.

 

BTW that has changed. I have heard of a couple of instances where a COVD therapist has turned away a child as being dyslexic and not having eye problems. I also have heard of a few who were told their children didn't have any problems, though this is usually in situations with multiple children, so I kinda wonder if the doctor just figures they can't get money out of you for all of them, KWIM? I hope not. I hope it is a sign of more balance in the industry.

 

Another complicating factor is many COVD therapists think dyslexia doesn't exist and that it has always just been unrecognized eye problems. You need someone who at least will admit there are two separate issues. Otherwise you can pretty much be guaranteed that they will recommend therapy.

 

 

Before making an appointment with a therapist, is there a way to make an educated guess as to whether the problem is processing rather than visual by observing a child's behavior (while reading and writing, for instance)?

 

Yes the COVD site includes their e-mail addresses. I was able to make sure they could take my insurance and get rates before I ever made an appointment. I just didn't know that I should be asking more questions. To do it over I would ask if they recognized a difference between eye problems and dyslexia and how they would diagnose the difference.

 

Or are there any particular questions we could ask our kids regarding their experiences while reading, etc. that might provide us with some insight as to whether the problem is processing rather than visual, before we go so far as to make an appointment?

 

That is what makes it so difficult. The symptoms are largely the same. If the eyes are not tracking properly then the child will skip words, sentences or just loose their place while reading. A visual dyslexic will do the same, but because the information is getting mixed up after it is seen.

 

The difference would be that when you take a pencil and have them follow the eraser with their eyes, you should see that they are not necessarily working together. I think I have heard of description of one eye jumping or one not keeping up. I don't know what it would look like. I just know that when my dd tested they could see her problems when reading, but when they had her follow an object with her eyes she did fine till they asked her to spell she would stop tracking and look up because she was thinking. My understanding from my ophthalmologist is that if the tracking looked fine when following an object then it is fine and that pausing while thinking was also perfectly normal. Though they had me doing exercises with my dd where she had to track and spell at the same time without pausing in her tacking.

 

The argument on the other side is that if you are pausing to think about it and looking up then you easily loose your place. If you can think without looking up then you will keep your place. My problem is that if this is perfectly normal behavior for everyone, then why is it that my child ends up with tracking issues because of it? It still screams that something else is going on, especially because she didn't improve in loosing her place.

 

 

I've already had one of my kids checked by an optometrist who said his depth perception and peripheral vision were normal, even though the opposite appears to be the case! Yet he puts his face really close to the page while reading.

 

Does he also happen to prefer low light areas to read? The one thing I was constantly nagged about as a child was how close I liked to be when I read a book. I also loved lower light (probably because there is less glare on the white areas then). I also have good depth perception and better than average peripheral vision. But the letters on your average white with black letters still have a sense of movement caused by the glare of the white places, if I don't read with my colored filters. They don't really move, but they aren't normal either. On a really bad day regular type looks like a really bad photo copy where it has a couple of shadows behind it. I was diagnosed through the Irlen Institute when I was in college. You might check out her book, Reading by the Colors, which comes with a set of filters you can try out. From there you should be able to decide if it would be worth paying for an official evaluation.

 

And keep asking questions! It is the best way to get answers.

 

Heather

[siloam]

Sight words cause problems for about 30% of students. So, you could teach all of your children the same way, and only some of them would have problems from the sight words.

 

With my remedial students, after remediation, I've also seen a improvement in their other subjects and their ability to memorize.

 

I will second this.

 

Sight words are just not worth the bother. You can teach most of them with phonics, and the few that are left you can teach the child to think of them phonetically when they spell, but say them normal in everyday speech.

 

For a dyslexic who already has a tendency to guess based on the shape of the letters, teaching sight words just gives them permission to guess all the more. They generally lack the visual processing skills to truly differentiate based on sight alone.

 

That is why most Orton Gillingham programs include nonsense words. They force the dyslexic to apply phonics and spelling rules in a situation where they can't guess based on what they know about the word.

 

Heather

[PeterPan]

Again, a lot of what Siloam is saying doesn't match up with our experience with an extremely good VT doc practice. (The lead doc writes for textbooks, etc.) A VT doc *can't* diagnose dyslexia. It's not their legal field. I asked straight-up, and they won't say it. Also, if you search here on the SN board for posts by LizzyBee, you'll find the standards for diagnosing dyslexia are changing. She was explaining that now you get a "reading disability" label from a neuropsych, not a dyslexia label. For the dyslexia label you have to get an MRI and show the bilaterality issues.

 

The real problem is that dyslexia is this catch-all phrase covering a spread of things, variations, etc.

 

Now an opthamologist is a surgeon and doesn't do VT. (Actually, there's one in our area who does, and she has a poor reputation for it. It's not their thing.) So I don't know how you're supposed to critique an optham. viewpoint against a dev. optom. Of course they disagree.

 

Next, what we're talking about in vision therapy is NOT issues that are developmental delays or things they grow out of. For an optham. to say something like that goes exactly back to my point, that it isn't their field. If you go back to the root, the eye functioning (teaming, focusing, etc.) was developing way back when the dc was learning to crawl, etc. In my dd's case the bilateral issues were severe enough she didn't crawl properly. Without that looking at the floor from the distance you get with crawling, you miss a whole stage of development. It's just a cascade. No amount of waiting fixes that. You HAVE to go back and teach the brain and eyes how to see those things. You're teaching the brain, making new pathways. They have MRI's showing the changes. It has nothing to do with waiting for maturation.

 

We've done OT and VT. OT's shake the other end of the stick when it comes to vision, the vestibular end. VT deals only with the eyes and brain. They support each other but do not replace.

 

Now I'm not quite sure what Siloam was talking about with spelling and vision. Working memory plays a huge part in vision and visual processing, as does the ability to handle distractions. After the basics were in place, we did quite a bit of work with tracking and looking at individual letters in words, reading them, handling distractions, etc. There's a place for that. Heather's whole experience was so different from ours, I'm not sure what to make of it.

[siloam]

Again, a lot of what Siloam is saying doesn't match up with our experience with an extremely good VT doc practice. (The lead doc writes for textbooks, etc.) A VT doc *can't* diagnose dyslexia. It's not their legal field. I asked straight-up, and they won't say it. Also, if you search here on the SN board for posts by LizzyBee, you'll find the standards for diagnosing dyslexia are changing. She was explaining that now you get a "reading disability" label from a neuropsych, not a dyslexia label. For the dyslexia label you have to get an MRI and show the bilaterality issues.

 

I must have mis-spoke. I wasn't trying to say they could diagnose it, just that a good doctor could see that the eyes are working properly and thus conclude any symptoms then have to be processing in nature.

 

 

Now an opthamologist is a surgeon and doesn't do VT. (Actually, there's one in our area who does, and she has a poor reputation for it. It's not their thing.) So I don't know how you're supposed to critique an optham. viewpoint against a dev. optom. Of course they disagree.

 

No, he isn't against VT at all, and he isn't just a surgeon (he only does surgery once a week), he is my regular eye doctor. I have never had eye surgery and he has been my doctor for over 10 years. He was just dealing with the facts. The fact is there are no independent studies proving anything either way about VT, and the few that had been started at the time I spoke to him were dealing with older people who had a medical problem that caused a regression in vision. That said he did believe it to be good tool, but one that is being over sold to people like me who don't need it.

 

Optometry, as a field, doesn't do medical studies, and COVD is an subset of optometry. Not to dis it, just to deal with facts. There are no long studies proving that VT might not be harmful in some young children, especially if they really didn't need it. He wasn't against it, he WAS tired of seeing people like me come in with children wearing bifocals (and hating it) because a COVD specialties prescribed them and tired of people who didn't need it paying big bucks for it. He didn't say it was a hoax. He believes it is needed in many cases.

 

Next, what we're talking about in vision therapy is NOT issues that are developmental delays or things they grow out of. For an optham. to say something like that goes exactly back to my point, that it isn't their field. If you go back to the root, the eye functioning (teaming, focusing, etc.) was developing way back when the dc was learning to crawl, etc. In my dd's case the bilateral issues were severe enough she didn't crawl properly. Without that looking at the floor from the distance you get with crawling, you miss a whole stage of development. It's just a cascade. No amount of waiting fixes that. You HAVE to go back and teach the brain and eyes how to see those things. You're teaching the brain, making new pathways. They have MRI's showing the changes. It has nothing to do with waiting for maturation.

 

 

Ok, I get what you are saying. But are we talking about the same thing? None of my kids had any motor problems. They all crawled, stood and walked on a regular time schedule. The only thing any of them were ever delayed in, and then only the younger two, was speech. Ds also had some fine motor skills delayed, I think. It might be a boy thing. His gross motor skills are off the charts. But while Dyslexia has become a catch all, by definition it is a problem in the way the brain is working with information. If you can tract a child's problems to a physical problem then the child doesn't have dyslexia.

 

To me that supports my argument to search for someone who can make distinctions. Your specialist obviously spotted something that was off in how they eyes were working and figured out how to fix it. (Yea!) When I hear of other people going to a VT therapist generally the therapist and show the parent the problem. They can have them try to track something and see the eyes jump, they can ask the child to focus on something and see how long it takes, or how they are unable. My child did everything fine, and had perfect vision. But when she read she did skip words. The doctor should have realized the problem was not vision related, but either she doesn't believe in processing problems or she just wanted money.

 

Now I'm not quite sure what Siloam was talking about with spelling and vision. Working memory plays a huge part in vision and visual processing, as does the ability to handle distractions. After the basics were in place, we did quite a bit of work with tracking and looking at individual letters in words, reading them, handling distractions, etc. There's a place for that. Heather's whole experience was so different from ours, I'm not sure what to make of it.

The COVD professional we saw had my dd do three exercises per day for her VT. The first was to practice reading the first letter and the last letter of a line all the way down a chapter book. I had to be there to make sure she didn't skip any lines. The is the ONE exercise she progressed in the whole time we did VT. She move up to reading the first and last words. :rolleyes: This is obviously a tracking exercise. The second exercise was to have her look at the end of a pencil and then move it towards her face as close as she could and still stay focused on it. This one is obviously a focus exercise. Then hold that there for a specified amount of time. The third one was to have her keep her eyes focused on the end of pencil while I was moving it around and have her spell at the same time without having to stop the eye movement. This is also a tracking exercise.

 

I agree that our experiences are totally different, and I wasn't impressed with my experience at all. I think your doctor was hands down a better one than mine. I think it was also complicated by the fact that my dd had the symptoms of a vision problem, but in the end, her eyes have no problems.

 

Heather

Edited January 19, 2011 by siloam

[PeterPan]

Heather, to split hairs a little more, I'll toss out that our VT place had a visual processing test. So they could actually quantify what areas of visual processing were off, give percentiles, age equivalents, etc.

 

Yes, the bifocals thing is really strange to me. I've heard of that and don't know the logic. Since it wasn't an issue with us, I moved on. I think it's more of an accomodative tool, a stopgap, my guess. My dd had reading glasses (got them prior to VT, trying to help the headaches), and they had ways we could use the reading glasses to relieve the strain of focusing after a lot of work on our VT homework.

[HeidiD]

 

That is what makes it so difficult. The symptoms are largely the same. If the eyes are not tracking properly then the child will skip words, sentences or just loose their place while reading. A visual dyslexic will do the same, but because the information is getting mixed up after it is seen.

 

 

Yes, and this is what has me wondering if it's even possible to figure out with any reasonable degree of certainty whether kids like mine, with other previously identified processing disorders (dyslexia, CAPD) also have vision weaknesses. Dyslexic gitches run rampant through our family in varying degrees. It would seem difficult to tell the difference. And VT for processing peculiarities would certainly be an expensive mistake in terms of time and money!

 

The difference would be that when you take a pencil and have them follow the eraser with their eyes, you should see that they are not necessarily working together.

 

 

I tried that today with the child I'm wondering about, and his eyes moved together when I moved the pencil.

 

 

The argument on the other side is that if you are pausing to think about it and looking up then you easily loose your place. If you can think without looking up then you will keep your place. My problem is that if this is perfectly normal behavior for everyone, then why is it that my child ends up with tracking issues because of it? It still screams that something else is going on, especially because she didn't improve in loosing her place.

 

It might be related to working memory. I wonder if vision therapists consider that possibility during testing (particularly in light of the fact that many dyslexics have low working memory). We just took another child to a neuropsych who seemed like a one-trick pony (eyes looking around too much always = Aspergers) and due to that experience, I definitely want to be more cautious and make sure that from now on we go to therapists who get the big picture. This particular child has low working memory and CAPD and seems to have visual dyslexia. And he tells me he often needs to look away in order to gather his thoughts and formulate a response because he's distracted by visual stimulii. Eye weakness isn't the cause of that particular behavior.

 

Does he also happen to prefer low light areas to read? The one thing I was constantly nagged about as a child was how close I liked to be when I read a book. I also loved lower light (probably because there is less glare on the white areas then). I also have good depth perception and better than average peripheral vision. But the letters on your average white with black letters still have a sense of movement caused by the glare of the white places, if I don't read with my colored filters. They don't really move, but they aren't normal either. On a really bad day regular type looks like a really bad photo copy where it has a couple of shadows behind it. I was diagnosed through the Irlen Institute when I was in college. You might check out her book, Reading by the Colors, which comes with a set of filters you can try out. From there you should be able to decide if it would be worth paying for an official evaluation.

 

That's very interesting. I frequently find him reading in dim light and assumed he just hadn't bothered to turn it on. I'll ask him about it, and I'll check out that book. Thanks!

[jennynd]

if she is 8, she is in most places 2nd grade and starting working on 3rd grade math. That tell me she doesn't have learning disability. There is something else going on. I will get a phycologist also

 

I'm using First Reader for phonics, with review phonics flashcards as we go. She reads aloud from level 1 readers daily. She seems to be responding fairly well to this, and I've seen some improvement recently in her reading. We're just using basic curriculum overall-- 2nd grade Abeka spelling (she can do the daily work fine but has trouble on the tests), just started Horizons math 3 today. Math concepts are her best subject; she only needs help with the reading in the workbook. We do science and history mostly orally since she has problems with reading and writing.

 

I don't know what her problem will turn out to be. I know that she has problems reading (remembering the sounds of letters and the look of sight words), trouble copying from one page to another, very hard time remembering how to spell words when taking tests or just writing in general, holding her pencil correctly, and there is something about her short term memory for details that is a problem... for example, learning AWANA verses is very, very difficult for her. We can spend hours over several days working on one verse, and she still won't learn it. However, she is excellent at narration and can retell the main events of a story very well. So it's something with details, especially details that don't have a logical flow. She has an excellent vocabulary and is very verbal. She can answer critical thinking questions very well. So it's something with reading and some kinds of memory, as far as I can see.

 

I'm really anxious for the VT consult today-- we're going to find out the results of her test. Also, what is OG?

[HeidiD]

Heather, to split hairs a little more, I'll toss out that our VT place had a visual processing test. So they could actually quantify what areas of visual processing were off, give percentiles, age equivalents, etc.

 

 

 

Are they able to determine with certainty whether the underlying causes for low scores are directly related to eye function, or if they might instead be caused by brain processing abnormalities?

 

What exact problems does VT address?

[Erica in PA]

(This is a crosspost from the General Board.)

 

I'm reaching the conclusion that my 8 yod isn't just a late bloomer, but may have an actual learning disability. As I've posted before, she is extremely verbal/auditory, but her reading and writing skills just aren't progressing the way they should be. She's just barely able to read early first grade level readers, with help. There is a huge gap between what most people would consider her intelligence, and her performance in school. When I read checklists of symptoms of learning disabilities, she seems to have most of them. So... what do I do first ? A friend told me about vision therapy, and dd has an appt. with a dr. there on Tuesday to see if that will help. But what else should I do? Where should she be tested for, and for what? Should I go through the public school system, or do this privately? If I do go through the public school, will we be obligated to then use their services or be more accountable to them in some way? If anyone has btdt, I would love to hear about how you dealt with this sort of issue. Any good websites with info on homeschooling children with learning difficulties would be appreciated too.

 

Update: We went for the vision therapy consult after her screening test last week, and they recommended she start therapy. She tested below her age level for four out of seven categories. However, dh and I have some reservations about whether this is really her problem, because there are some things with her memory and other areas that vision therapy wouldn't address. I called a reading specialist recommended to me by a friend, and this therapist said that from what I told her, it sounded more like dyslexia to her. So.... I'm thinking we will go ahead and have this therapist test her and see what she finds. I'm just hoping that it's not going to be crazy expensive, because we cannot afford it at all.

[ElizabethB]

Update: We went for the vision therapy consult after her screening test last week, and they recommended she start therapy. She tested below her age level for four out of seven categories. However, dh and I have some reservations about whether this is really her problem, because there are some things with her memory and other areas that vision therapy wouldn't address. I called a reading specialist recommended to me by a friend, and this therapist said that from what I told her, it sounded more like dyslexia to her. So.... I'm thinking we will go ahead and have this therapist test her and see what she finds. I'm just hoping that it's not going to be crazy expensive, because we cannot afford it at all.

 

:grouphug:

 

Here is a test you can try on your own for free, the MWIA. For my students, I've seen a difference in those diagnosed with dyslexia and those taught sight words--those with dyslexia read both lists slowly and miss an equal number of words on each list. Those that have been taught sight words read the holistic list faster and miss more words on the phonetic list. My students who score this way remediate quickly, within a few months.

 

A dyslexic student taught with a good phonics program and few sight words yet exposed to sight words through the course of their reading over the years may score the same. (Sight words can mimic the symptoms of true organic dyslexia.)

 

However, the same things that I remediate my students who have been taught sight words with--nonsense words and syllables--are also helpful for dyslexic students, it will just take years of remediation instead of months.

 

If it is true dyslexia, there are easy to use OG programs you can use to remediate the problem on your own. Recipe for Reading is $25, you make your own word lists and follow instructions from the manual. Something like Barton is a lot more expensive, but all laid out for you, and they have good resale value or you can become a Barton tutor to earn back some of the cost.

[HeidiD]

I called a reading specialist recommended to me by a friend, and this therapist said that from what I told her, it sounded more like dyslexia to her. So.... I'm thinking we will go ahead and have this therapist test her and see what she finds. I'm just hoping that it's not going to be crazy expensive, because we cannot afford it at all.

 

Erica, in addition to ElizabethB's excellent suggestions, here's a link to book by a COVD doctor, Kenneth Lane with exercises, lesson plans, etc. It might be a cheaper way to make some observations regarding the vision issue and help you decide whether you want to follow up on it later. I tried this book and I could see improvements, particularly in the written exercises. (But once again, I'm not sure if the underlying problem was visual or related to fine motor weakness :tongue_smilie:). I'd love some insight as to whether the vision therapy assessments are able to distinguish one from the other before I take the next step. I know my son wouldn't perform perfectly on a reading test, for instance, because his fluency is not up to par, but in real life, he works effectively in grade level material, can string tiny beads, etc. So I'm still unsure whether he's a candidate or not. :confused:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Developing-Ocular-Visual-Perceptual-Skills/dp/1556425953/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1295614375&sr=8-1

[Erica in PA]

Update: It's been a busy few weeks here, with lots of reading on my part, and phone calls, trying to decide on what is the best next step for dd. What I've decided to do for now is go through Reading Reflex with dd. She scored much better on the test in that book than I would have thought-- high second grade, while she is a young 3rd grader (August birthday). I would have said she was on a first grade level. I've started the activities in the book, and I think they will be really helpful to her. I actually have seen an improvement in her reading just in the past week! I'm thinking that if she has dyslexia at all, it might be very slight. Or maybe she is just one of those later readers.

 

I know that Reading Reflex isn't nearly as indepth or structured as many of the reading programs that are generally recommended here, but from what I've seen so far, I think it might work for dd. If in a few weeks it doesn't seem to be going well, I will rethink again, possibly trying one of the more indepth programs, as well as seeing the reading therapist in person (we did talk on the phone, which was helpful), and possibly considering the vision therapy again. I just think for now it is best to start with the simplest possible solution, before jumping into more expensive and demanding approaches. Anyway, just wanted to update here. I appreciate all of your help and input. Thanks again!

[Laurie4b]

Update: It's been a busy few weeks here, with lots of reading on my part, and phone calls, trying to decide on what is the best next step for dd. What I've decided to do for now is go through Reading Reflex with dd. She scored much better on the test in that book than I would have thought-- high second grade, while she is a young 3rd grader (August birthday). I would have said she was on a first grade level. I've started the activities in the book, and I think they will be really helpful to her. I actually have seen an improvement in her reading just in the past week! I'm thinking that if she has dyslexia at all, it might be very slight. Or maybe she is just one of those later readers.

 

I know that Reading Reflex isn't nearly as indepth or structured as many of the reading programs that are generally recommended here, but from what I've seen so far, I think it might work for dd. If in a few weeks it doesn't seem to be going well, I will rethink again, possibly trying one of the more indepth programs, as well as seeing the reading therapist in person (we did talk on the phone, which was helpful), and possibly considering the vision therapy again. I just think for now it is best to start with the simplest possible solution, before jumping into more expensive and demanding approaches. Anyway, just wanted to update here. I appreciate all of your help and input. Thanks again!

 

Reading Reflex is an excellent choice. For many kids with dyslexia, it will work. The great thing about RR is that you'll see results or not within 2-3 months. She should be at (or above) grade level by then if it's working. It if doesn't, then you may need an Orton-Gillingham program. The only downside to RR is that the teaching plans aren't as clear, but if you can "get" it, it's an excellent program.

[Laurie4b]

Update: It's been a busy few weeks here, with lots of reading on my part, and phone calls, trying to decide on what is the best next step for dd. What I've decided to do for now is go through Reading Reflex with dd. She scored much better on the test in that book than I would have thought-- high second grade, while she is a young 3rd grader (August birthday). I would have said she was on a first grade level. I've started the activities in the book, and I think they will be really helpful to her. I actually have seen an improvement in her reading just in the past week! I'm thinking that if she has dyslexia at all, it might be very slight. Or maybe she is just one of those later readers.

 

I know that Reading Reflex isn't nearly as indepth or structured as many of the reading programs that are generally recommended here, but from what I've seen so far, I think it might work for dd. If in a few weeks it doesn't seem to be going well, I will rethink again, possibly trying one of the more indepth programs, as well as seeing the reading therapist in person (we did talk on the phone, which was helpful), and possibly considering the vision therapy again. I just think for now it is best to start with the simplest possible solution, before jumping into more expensive and demanding approaches. Anyway, just wanted to update here. I appreciate all of your help and input. Thanks again!

 

Reading Reflex is an excellent choice. For many kids with dyslexia, it will work. The great thing about RR is that you'll see results or not within 2-3 months. She should be at (or above) grade level by then if it's working. It if doesn't, then you may need an Orton-Gillingham program. The only downside to RR is that the teaching plans aren't as clear, but if you can "get" it, it's an excellent program. For my older son, whose dyslexia was less severe, a combination of Phonographix tutoring (Reading Reflex done by someone with training which got him up to grade level) followed by REWARDS secondary (Sopris West publishers) a couple years later, brought his reading to a level commensurate with what I guessed his potential was. (He was in 5th grade and after REWARDS secondary, he was reading on a 9th grade level.) For my ds with more severe dyslexia, we did Orton Gillingham for about a year, then REWARDs secondary, & REWARDs science, which got his reading to the level I wanted (similar to other ds). HOwever, with the more severe issues, that ds still reads very slowly, and spelling remains difficult for all but the most common words (which we drilled) or phonetically simply words (and even then, he is inclined to leave out consonants.)

 

For our son with the more severe issues, we also did vision therapy. Supposedly, he made great gains with all the stuff she said was wrong with his eyes, but it made *no difference at all* in his reading. He still skips words and phrases on a regular basis. He did make gains in visual motor skills during vision therapy, but we also did Brainware Safari at the same time. I believe Brainware Safari was responsible for the gains involving visual processing, though I can't rule out that vision therapy helped. We spent about $5000 on the VT with the best rep in our state, COVD, etc, etc. I knew the research and knew we were taking a chance, but since ds had visual processing issues which interacted with his visual-motor issues, and since there aren't research-based therapies for that, we gave it a try.

Edited January 29, 2011 by Laurie4b