math is driving me crazy

[AngieW in Texas]

It was so easy with my two older girls. I had programs that I loved and they worked great for my kids. Miquon, then Singapore, then Jacobs - a great sequence.

 

My 4th grader is dyslexic. She is definitely an auditory learner. She does NOT like doing schoolwork on the computer.

 

She has a hard time interpreting 3-d line-drawings. If you look at the website I link below, the line drawings at the top of the page would be pretty meaningless to her, but the solid-colored drawings at the bottom of the page would make perfect sense.

http://mathforum.org/workshops/sum98/participants/sanders/Geom3D.html

 

She cannot see broken (dashed) lines.

 

If there are hidden parts of an object, she cannot intuit what's missing.

 

On the other hand, she is great at getting mathematical concepts. She can do math in her head more easily than she can do it on paper.

 

Miquon made no sense to her at all. Singapore worked great for 1a/1b, but not so great for 2a/2b, and we left Singapore after 3a.

 

We tried Professor B, but she absolutely hated it.

 

We did Moving with Math level B. She liked that one okay, but I have a very difficult time following the program because the teacher guide was so scattered.

 

I didn't want to spend $150 for the next level of MWM. I always felt like I was floundering around with level B. So we tried MathSteps, since the tutor thought it might work for her.

 

She hated MathSteps. It was printed on newsprint - which she has a very hard time with. She needs white paper. There wasn't enough white space for her either. I started photocopying the pages so the paper would be white, but we still had the problem of too little white space, so I started rewriting the problems on the white board. There were too many problems, so I cut them in half. It still didn't work well for her, so I dropped it.

 

My dd asked to go back to Singapore. We started using the 4A textbook. It has gone mostly okay. It's just that she keeps getting very frustrated. She doesn't follow visual examples. She doesn't like using blocks (like base ten blocks or cuisenaire rods) either.

 

She didn't like the samples of MUS and said that she'd rather keep on doing Singapore than switch to that. She started crying when she saw Saxon (no white space, tons of words, closely-packed problems, absolutely nightmarish for her).

 

I'm thinking about Right Start level E for her. That's where she would place according to the questionnaire on the website. I don't want to spend that much money to find that it won't work for her though. I was able to find MWM level B used, so I only had to pay 1/2-price.

 

I'm fine with the work being teacher-led and that's the way that my dd prefers to work anyway.

 

I'm not really sure what I'm asking here. I would just like to have our math issues resolved. I need something that doesn't rely on visual images for math. I need it to have plenty of white space and be printed on white paper. She can do multi-digit addition/subtracton/multiplication, short division (but only with single-digit divisors), and fraction addition/subtraction with unlike denominators (even converts the fractions in her head). Just don't ask her how many blocks are shown in the picture when there's a 3-d perspective drawing of blocks, especially if some are hidden on the back side. She doesn't know how to interpret those drawings and has to actually build them with cubes in order to figure out what the drawing actually shows. She finds it demeaning to have to use blocks (even base 10 or cuisenaire), but is okay with using other manipulatives for math.

 

Ideas?

[Claire]

Honestly, since she liked MWM and it worked for her, I'd just bite the bullet and get the next level.

 

I went through a *lot* of math programs with my dyslexic dd, including some expensive ones that did not work. Chalkdust, for example, was extremely expensive so I felt obliged to stick with it for the year. Turned out not only was it expensive, but we wasted a year of time. We went through many of the math programs you mention, with many similar results (for example, had to drop Singapore at level 3B).

 

The problem is not so much finding a "good" math program, because many of them are excellent. The problem is finding one that is a good match for your child's learning style.

[chiguirre]

If she doesn't do well with manipulatives, avoid RightStart like the plague. Ds hated it passionately and I have to admit that it was a complete mismatch. We ended up with Rod and Staff after a lot of trial and error. It uses almost no manipulatives and only the teacher has to use those. It's very drill oriented but it does teach them the concepts thoroughly. I don't know how the upper level books are laid out, so I'm no help there.

 

Good luck finding something that works and keeping your sanity while you look!

[AngieW in Texas]

I'm pulling up a really old post here, but I'm in pretty much the same spot again.

 

My dd is now in 7th grade. After I wrote the post this thread starts with, I also tried CLE (she was in tears by the 2nd day and only made it through 3 days) and then ended up going back to Singapore, starting with level 4A where she placed. She did great in 4A and 4B, but started losing it again in 5A and 5B. We abandoned Singapore again at the end of 5B.

 

Then we tried Lial's BCM (too cluttered, too much color, too many problems), Key to (muddled through all of the fraction books and two each of the decimal and percent books), and most of MUS Prealgebra (absolutely hated this one and was having anxiety attacks during math every day where she was lying on the floor gasping for air for several minutes several times during math every day). Prentice Hall Middle School Math wasn't any better.

 

Now we're trying out Math Mammoth, but I had to take her all the way back to 5A.

[EKS]

Then we tried Lial's BCM (too cluttered, too much color, too many problems)

 

How did you use BCM?

 

My son and I just finished Lial's algebra II book, but I didn't use it with him like a normal person would. For the lesson, I wrote each example problem on a small whiteboard and then he would try to solve it. If he could solve it easily, we would move on to the next example problem (and not do the practice problems). If he couldn't solve it, I would show him how to solve it (on the whiteboard) and then he would do the practice problems on the whiteboard. He rarely looked at the book.

 

Then I would assign problems at the end of the section based on what he needed to work on. So sometimes it was all of the odds and sometimes it was all of the odds for particular problem types and fewer for other problem types.

 

If the problem sets at the ends of the sections are overwhelming, perhaps you could copy them for her so she doesn't have to see them.

[AngieW in Texas]

That's what I ended up doing at the end. Unfortunately, she could still see the book (even though she wasn't using it) and the look of it freaked her out.

[chiguirre]

I copy ds's math into a spiral bound drawing book with colored pencils (to make it more exciting). I do this so we can hang out on a concept for more than the alloted 6 worksheets in MUS, but it could work for spacing things out too. Of course, you might have to switch to another program for a while anyway if BCM is causing her anxiety.

 

Does your library have the Teaching Company Basic Math course? Maria from MM recommends that as a pre-algebra course along with her extra worksheets. Maybe that could work and you could try it out for free to begin with.

[dsmith]

We only started making progress with math after we began using a combination of whiteboard, and copying a few problems on a white page at a time. I get frustrated with this, so I photocopy a page, cut out a few problems, and glue them on a piece of paper.:001_smile: If he sees a whole page full of problems he has a complete meltdown. We also went to an older math text, Strayer-Upton Practical Arithmetic, which is a 3 book set that goes to 8th grade. I supplement with the Key To series. I've just started investigating older texts for Algebra, Geometry, etc. but I think we have another 1 - 1 1/2 years of catch up to do, so I'm taking my time.

[PeterPan]

Angie, when you did VT with this dd (you did, right?), did they work on visual PROCESSING or only the eye teaming stuff? For us it was a totally separate stage. Once they got the eyes working together correctly, they went back and worked on visual processing or getting the brain to learn again how to interpret the information it could now take in. They played lots of games, did work on the computer, did visual digit spans while using working memory, etc.

 

I'm just making the connection between your recent test scores (all of which were lower in the vision categories than the others) and your comments about visual processing with the math pages. I'm just wondering if you hit a wall with where she can go visually or if she could go a bit further. I have no clue, not knowing anything about the problems she started with (which sounded pretty severe) and not being a VT. I was just making that connection and asking the question.

 

If she has hit a limit visually, what you may need to do is find a way to MAKE the preferred program fit her. MM is working out very well for my dd, so I'd feel confident leaving her there. Is it working for her? Is it a visual problem or an amount of work problem or a fact recall problem? If it's a visual thing, you might see if the full adobe software would allow you to edit it and make the font larger, declutter the pages, etc. If it's locked, then maybe Maria would give you a copy that isn't locked.

 

As far as how we use MM (which seems to be pretty successful for us), we do the amount of pages per day that fits her, but we do it as one page from each of x-many chapters in a row. So if she's doing 5 pages today, she'll do one page each from 5 chapters. That way she's not doing 5 pages of one thing and forgetting. We started off low (3 or 4?) and worked up to 6. When the material got harder, we backed off to 5. Now we're back up at 6. I pretty much look for how long it's taking her. My goal is between 1 and 1 1/2 hours. If it goes above that, I cut down. If it hits 1 hour, I add more. I still let her use a multiplication table if she needs it. I keep it in a sheet protector. At this point, she mainly pulls it out if she's tired. In general, she doesn't need it any more.

 

MM has been marvelous for us, pulling some things into real life and carrying over (on shopping trips, etc.) in a way that others are noticing.

[AngieW in Texas]

The VT here is strictly visual efficiency. I know for sure that she has visual processing issues as well. I thought the <0.1 %ile score for visual-auditory learning score was horrifying because of how difficult that indicates to me that getting her around it is going to be.

 

I have her work for an amount of time rather than an amount of pages. She seems to do a lot better when math is broken up into short chunks of time. We have two math sessions each day.

 

I left a call with the counselor she's seeing to get her interpretation of the scores. She used to be a school counselor and left because she really wanted to do counseling, but was actually working almost exclusively as an educational psychologist. I'm hoping she may be able to point me to somebody who can help me figure out what to do.

[PeterPan]

Hmmm, that explains it. There's a whole stage beyond that where they can work on visual processing. Some kids' visual processing will come up naturally, just by fixing the vision problems, and some kids' won't. We did 2 or 3 months (I forget now) of work on visual processing after we did the regular vision stuff. We stopped by mutual agreement, because we had hit walls with her working memory. (Did you mention this dd has an ADD or ADHD diagnosis?) There were some things they wanted her to do combining vision and working memory that she just could not get to. They suggested we do more OT and come back. We dropped/paused OT (we were very burnt out and overstretched in every way), so we never went back for more.

 

The visual processing was very, very fast to improve with therapy. Honestly, some of the stuff was so basic and obvious in retrospect, you could even fiddle with it yourself. Or if you could find a VT who does the visual processing work, they could maybe just do a once a month session with lots and lots of homework. We did a lot with Set and card games. We did tanagrams. They did things on the computer with vision and working memory. It sounds all sort of simple, but it got very fast, dramatic improvement in those visual processing test scores.

 

I don't know, just throwing that out there. If you could *find* someone who could evaluate and attack that stuff, even if you had to drive a ways, I think you could get by with a lot of homework and just a few sessions. It was also very fun for us, as opposed to the regular VT that was such a slog. By that point I had ds's speech therapy piled on top, and dd pretty much did the things herself.

 

My thought on the vision thing was from looking at the scores in your other thread. I just never responded, because I'm not really qualified or experienced, kwim? Sometimes I read, think, and don't reply. What I was looking at were the tests that had scores significantly (15%+) lower than the others. If you list out just those, they seem to have the common thread of vision. That's what I was noticing or thinking I was seeing. And yes, my dd's scores for visual processing before the therapy were SHOCKINGLY low. I would consider her gifted but dyslexic, and you don't expect to see the visual processing of a 2 yo with that smart a kid, kwim? After the regular VT the scores were pretty much the same, though I think one had actually dropped. Maybe one category of the visual processing improved. So her eye FUNCTION improved in real life, but the PROCESSING still needed work. One month of therapy bumped her 20-30% or more in a given category. Some that were say 3-4 years below age actually came into range in just a month. It was astonishing how little it took to get there and how quickly the brain could get back on track once it was actually seeing right and could interpret the information, kwim?

 

We continue to do puzzles and games using visual + working memory to work on it. Maybe someday we'll go back. So many things, so little time. At least now it's not so stinkin' pressing as it was before. After you finish the regular vision and visual processing, there's another thing called PACE that our place does. The PACE worksheets they tried with her were what wigged her out. They combine working memory and processing (auditory or visual, whatever the dc needs) and academic skills. She couldn't do them and couldn't make progress, no matter how we tried. It might be nice to get there someday, just in the sense of taking her as far as I know and can (tools in the toolbox, if that makes sense), but we'll just have to see. I think it was over $3K for the PACE therapy. It's one-on-one with the certified VT for lots and lots of hours. Huge changes, huge expense. Ugh. Anyways, I mention that because it might give you another direction to look if you're looking for new input on that visual processing thing. If you found a VT place that also does PACE, it would sort of be an overlap of skills and experience they could use with her. But anyways, just throwing all that out.

[EKS]

I thought the <0.1 %ile score for visual-auditory learning score was horrifying because of how difficult that indicates to me that getting her around it is going to be.

 

 

 

Have you seen the test? The reason I ask is that there can be more reasons for a low score than just being "bad" at whatever the Woodcock Johnson people think they're testing. I looked the test up and found this description: "The student is taught rebus symbols for words and tries to 'read' sentences written with the symbols." From what I read there is a lag between the teaching and the test.

 

I'm not saying that she doesn't have a problem, but that the test results themselves need to be put into a larger context. There are many reasons she could have gotten such a low score and not all of them are related to visual-auditory learning. For example, some kids have trouble remembering information that they don't consider to be meaningful.

 

My son recently scored in the 1st percentile for processing speed on the WJ-Cognitive. The person evaluating him allowed me to see the test and, frankly, I felt sorry for him having to do it because it made me woozy just looking at it (and I'm pretty sure that my processing speed is/was above average). The evaluator told me that the results indicated that he takes about twice as long to do that type of work as an average age-matched peer would. That information allowed me to keep the score in perspective. While the 1st percentile seems frighteningly low, taking twice as long to do a task is in line with what I see every day with him.

 

Do you know what her raw score was? Did she get any right at all? My son has gotten scores like that on a visual processing test when he didn't understand the instructions. Finally, after having him do well on every section except two, where he was getting <0.1% percentile several times over the period of a year or two, the tester broke protocol and made sure that he really understood what he was supposed to be doing. After that he scored in the 99th percentile (got every one right). Again, I'm not saying that this is what's going on with your daughter, but that it's important not to take test results at face value without some major probing.

[PeterPan]

Hey Kai, is the WJ Cognitive included as part of the regular WJ testing, or is it a separate (additional) test? We're doing some WJ testing for our year-end thing (I need a number to submit to the state or else do a portfolio review), and the lady who is doing it said I just needed to tell her if I wanted anything extra. I would LOVE to know if there's a statistically significant issue with dd's processing speed. Nuts, I'd like to know her IQ. I don't need that though, can just make a guess. Mainly I'm wondering what else this WJ test could tell us beyond sheer academics. You probably already know from our posts that we have what I'm calling dyslexia (not formally diagnosed) and probably any other dys- you want to add on. For me it's just mystifying how her brain works, and we'll just leave it at that. She's incredibly smart, but things wear her out or seem to be harder or whatever.

 

Well anyways, I have time to contact the lady and ask for a few supplemental WJ things if I know what I want. I scheduled the appt. way back, even before December, and it was really before all these pieces had fallen into place with us. She's just planning on the basic whatever at this point. Well that's not true. She said if she sees indications of certain things sometimes she'll keep going with a few extra tests. But anyways, if you know specific ones we ought to be doing, I'd definitely mention them to her.

[AngieW in Texas]

Considering that the description of what kids have difficulty with when this test is very low exactly fits the issues I've seen her have even all the way back to toddlerhood, I'm pretty sure that the results are accurate. I knew this was by far her weakest area. I just didn't realize how weak.

 

You can see my other post which is also pretty near the top of this board that gives all the test results with further information.

[PeterPan]

Angie, I was just reading your other post, and that is very fascinating! Left me wondering *why* they're so connected...

 

Kai, don't worry about my question. I checked back through my correspondence, and it turns out this lady does everything BUT the cognitive. It's for academic purposes anyway. Oh well. If I could find someone to do more, that would be interesting. I just assume there'd be a big price jump, don't know. I should do some checking and see. What kind of person administers the WJ with cognitive? A psychologist? Or OT had wanted us to go neuropsych, but now I'm wondering if I could find another option, maybe at a much lower price point, to get us to about the same place. I don't want ADD meds, just educational help.

[EKS]

Hey Kai, is the WJ Cognitive included as part of the regular WJ testing, or is it a separate (additional) test? We're doing some WJ testing for our year-end thing (I need a number to submit to the state or else do a portfolio review), and the lady who is doing it said I just needed to tell her if I wanted anything extra. I would LOVE to know if there's a statistically significant issue with dd's processing speed. Nuts, I'd like to know her IQ. I don't need that though, can just make a guess. Mainly I'm wondering what else this WJ test could tell us beyond sheer academics. You probably already know from our posts that we have what I'm calling dyslexia (not formally diagnosed) and probably any other dys- you want to add on. For me it's just mystifying how her brain works, and we'll just leave it at that. She's incredibly smart, but things wear her out or seem to be harder or whatever.

 

Well anyways, I have time to contact the lady and ask for a few supplemental WJ things if I know what I want. I scheduled the appt. way back, even before December, and it was really before all these pieces had fallen into place with us. She's just planning on the basic whatever at this point. Well that's not true. She said if she sees indications of certain things sometimes she'll keep going with a few extra tests. But anyways, if you know specific ones we ought to be doing, I'd definitely mention them to her.

 

It sounds like you would benefit from having your daughter evaluated. I've found it helpful to not only know what my son's weaknesses are but also what his strengths are.

 

Also, Brock and Fernette Eide are coming out with a book later in the year called The Dyslexic Advantage. It's about the processing strengths of dyslexics, of which there are many, and nice to know when we're struggling every day with the weaknesses.

[PeterPan]

But when you say evaluated, what type? I had been told neuropsych, but that's $2500 around here, ouch. I don't suspect spectrum problems and don't want meds. All I want is the educational side. The neuropsych that the OT had told us about she said would basically confirm what we already know. Well thanks, but I pay that much to learn something, lol. I tried googling ed psychs this morning, and I clearly haven't figured out how you even go about finding them.

 

I'll definitely look into that book!

[EKS]

But when you say evaluated, what type?

 

Maybe an educational assessment? I think what you want is a WISC-IV and a WJ-III. You might also want some or all of the WJ-Cognitive. Can the person who you were going to get to do the WJ-III administer the WISC?

 

You're probably going to want this documentation anyway if your daughter ends up needing accommodations for the SAT. The College Board wants to see a history of disability and getting it done sooner (and again later) establishes that.

[PeterPan]

Yeah, that was what one place I called said, that they do the WISC and the WJ and then read the tea leaves. I just wasn't totally happy with the places I found so far. And it's really the type of thing where you're paying for the PERSON and need to be happy, kwim? As we see daily, scores aren't as helpful as the interpretation of them.

 

And no, the lady doing the eval is a math tutor and only does subject tests, no cognitive.

[PeterPan]

Angie, I just remembered! Chocolate Fix was one of the games they played a lot. Totally simple to do yourself, extremely good for visual processing. And once you get one game like that, you see where you could do more.

[wapiti]

Elizabeth, I'm pretty sure that if you want something like the WISC, you'll need a psych (or an employee of a psych) for both the testing and the interpretation. It seems pretty common to pair the WISC with the WJ achievement test. We've done that and also the WISC with the WIAT. I kind of liked the WIAT results better, but I have no concrete reasoning on that ;).

 

One of my kids has had both the WJ-Cognitive (at school) and the WISC (privately) and I didn't care for the WJ Cog - I didn't feel I got any useful info out of it (though, as you might guess, the analysis on the part of the tester was minimal). The subsections are broken down differently, and I vaguely recall there being an issue with auditory processing skills impacting certain sections of the WJ-Cog. I didn't feel the scores meant that much to me, because they seemed to reflect neither his strengths nor his weaknesses. With the WISC, they were a little bit clearer, though he's still "complicated" according to the psych ;).

 

As far as trying to find that right person, if you haven't asked already, your COVD optometrist might know a pscyh very experienced with 2E, because they probably get patients referred from them. Also, most psychs who deal with gifted kids probably get a lot of patients with LDs. In my area, the IQ and achievement testing, plus analysis of results and the extensive personal history forms, and a conference and report, run in the neighborhood of $1200-1600. We paid the lower end last year, and were not disappointed. And then we got a sibling discout on the other two :)

[PeterPan]

Thanks wapiti, that makes a lot of sense! You're right, I totally forgot I could pick the brains of the VT people. Doesn't sound like there would be a ton of overlap, and I'm glad to know I'm not missing out on the ultimate by not doing the WJ Cognitive.

 

Thanks! :)

[EKS]

Yeah, that was what one place I called said, that they do the WISC and the WJ and then read the tea leaves. I just wasn't totally happy with the places I found so far. And it's really the type of thing where you're paying for the PERSON and need to be happy, kwim? As we see daily, scores aren't as helpful as the interpretation of them.

 

And no, the lady doing the eval is a math tutor and only does subject tests, no cognitive.

 

Also, if you think your daughter might be gifted, it's vitally important you get an evaluator who gets what it means to be gifted with learning disabilities. In my experience most don't even if they say they do.

[AngieW in Texas]

Is this the right game?

 

http://www.thinkfun.com/shop/product/chocolate-fix,16,22.htm

[PeterPan]

Yup! And where I could go to the end and do the hardest page, she found them pretty challenging. It's just one of the things they did, but it was that kind of stuff, the things you might enjoy doing at home that might actually have surprising benefit. Now I try to build time into our day for them. SET is pretty easy to find and quick to play. They had some variations the dc could play by himself that went really, really fast. I can't even remember now, but dd could tell you. Let's just say she quickly became faster. :)

 

They did tanagrams, something else you might have lying around. Anything like that would be good (Wedgits, Equilibrio, lego kits, etc.). Anything that uses visual processing and reasoning to interpret and apply what they're seeing. They're seeing correctly now. They just need some practice applying that to new situations to help the brain get good at it. And thankfully, it's fun. :)

[wapiti]

SET is pretty easy to find and quick to play.

 

The cards are at Target, and then there's the on-line game ;) http://www.setgame.com/set/puzzle_frame.htm

[PeterPan]

The online game won't do, because you want a speed element. They did solitaire variations where you would keep flipping cards and playing, and you had to basically do it just as fast as you could flip the card. Man, I can't even remember what the rules were. If you want, I'll ask dd. But no, you'd actually need the cards. It was really witty. See there are lots of times where you want to discriminate things (9 vs. 6, 7 vs. 1, similarly spelled words, etc.) very quickly. It also brings in the working memory, because they're having to remember what characteristics they were using. So they were using the cards but with new variants for rules.

 

Now you're seeing how bad my memory really is. :)

[wapiti]

The online game won't do, because you want a speed element.

That's true. (speaking of lack of memory, I was just remembering a brief time when I was slightly addicted to it, though I don't know if it was the version that's at that link.)

 

Poking around a bit further, I see there's an app for the Ipad, with various timed variations - not sure if that would help. There's a screenshot of one with multiple players. I've never actually paid for a game app (I'm cheap) but this is tempting. http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/set-pro-hd/id381004916?mt=8#