MCT 4 level analysis vs. diagramming

[Oak Knoll Mom]

I'm putting together a proposal to teach MCT grammar, vocab, and poetry at a middle grades co-op. My son is using MCT now and we love it and I can see it working really well in a co-op situation. However, one of the women who will be directing the program wants to know why MCT doesn't diagram. Many of the kids who will be in this co-op will be coming straight out of FLL 4 where they've just finished two years of diagramming.

 

So, is the 4-level analysis superior to diagramming? Or is it just an alternate way to analyze a sentence? My initial thought is to let the ones who want their kids to continue diagramming do that at home with the practice sentences, but in class we will do the 4-level analysis.

[8filltheheart]

So, is the 4-level analysis superior to diagramming? Or is it just an alternate way to analyze a sentence? .

 

IMHO, the 4-level analysis is inferior to diagramming.

 

The only concept in the 4-level analysis covers that isn't mastered through diagramming is identifying which type of sentence and that is a very low level skill.

 

Diagramming forces identification of how the parts of speech actually function in relation with each other.

[Oak Knoll Mom]

Since I posted the question, I found this from MCT himself:

 

With diagrams there is good news and bad news. The good news is that it is

visual and separates the modifiers from the modified. The bad news is that with

diagramming you have the method itself to learn, unlike four-level in which

there is no artificial ingredient. Also in diagramming you have to answer fewer

questions than in a four-level. Finally, in diagramming you do not see a visual

representation of the four levels operating simultaneously in our minds, and you

do not see in front of you that at level one DOG is a noun, and at level two the

same word is a SUBJECT and so forth, so I think that four-level is more

complete, more realistic, and more pure.

 

8FillTheHeart, you would disagree with this? (I don't know enough about upper level diagramming to know what it does and doesn't show. I need some experts here!)

[8filltheheart]

Since I posted the question, I found this from MCT himself:

 

 

 

8FillTheHeart, you would disagree with this? (I don't know enough about upper level diagramming to know what it does and doesn't show. I need some experts here!)

 

I completely disagree with it. Oh please......if you diagram a word as a subject, you don't recognize that it is functioning as a noun? Really? :tongue_smilie:

 

In the 4-level analysis, what you don't see is how words modify each other as clearly as in diagramming. I also think it is more difficult to understand how verbals function in their various roles.

 

I think that quote is nothing more than bloviating!! :lol: Of course that is his view!

[Capt_Uhura]

I'm a newbie at this but I'll throw in my half cent anyway. I think both are useful. I have my boys diagram the Practice Town sentence right on the page. Sometimes it means we have to learn a new aspect of diagramming. THen I pull out Warriner's or Rex Barks and we learn how to do it. If we only do the 4 level analysis, I have them write adj/adv prep phrase for example, rather than just prep. phrase. Here is where I think the 4-level analysis falls short IF you're not also discussing it w/ DC. If there is no discussion, then you don't know if DC knows whether or not the phrase is acting as an adj phrase or an adv phrase AND whether DC knows what the phrase is modifying. So if we're not going to diagram I have them circle the phrase and then draw an arrow to what it is modifying. But usually we do discuss so I ask questions regarding what a phrase is modifying so we're getting all the info you'd get w/ a diagram but it takes discussion.

 

A teacher-friend swears that his 11th graders, in a nice, typical middle class school, can't understand that computer is sometimes a noun and sometimes an adjective. Grammar has gone out of favor in these parts.

[Dana]

When we do the 4-level analysis, I have my son put prepositional phrases in parentheses. I also have him draw arrows from adjectives, adverbs, and prep phrases to the words they are modifying.

 

I also agree that diagramming gives something more that you don't get in the 4-level analysis. We're using Rex Barks as well as Practice Island to see how diagramming works. I think a combination of both is good.

[Granny_Weatherwax]

It has been a while since I did any diagramming and neither of my children did it when they were in public school so you may take this with a grain of salt....

 

I don't think the 4level analysis is inferior in any way. If you do it right you will have identified, for each word in a sentence, the part of speech, the job of that part of speech, it's job in the sentence and what type of sentence it is as related to complexity and structure.

 

This is a typical discussion for my DS regarding a 4level analysis:

 

"He left her angrily, reiterating his tyrannical mandate." (from Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, 1816)

 

Me: What is grammar?

DS: A way of thinking about language.

Me: How many levels of grammar are there?

DS: 4

Me: What is the first level?

DS: Parts of speech

Me: How many Parts of speech are there?

DS: 8- nouns, verbs, adjectives, adverbs, prepositions...

Me: What part of speech is "he"?

DS: a pronoun

Me: What do pronouns do?

DS: replace a noun

Me: What type of pronoun is 'he'?

DS: subject pronoun

Me: is it singular or plural?

DS: singular

Me: 1st, 2nd or 3d person?

DS: 3d

Me: Can you tell the pronoun's antecedent?

DS: no.

Me: What part of speech is ' left'?

DS: a verb.

Me: What do verbs do?

DS: Shows action, being or links the subject to its complement

Me: What kind of verb is 'left', action or linking?

DS: action

Me: So what are we looking for?

DS: a direct object

Me: Can you identify the DO?

DS: Yes, 'her'.

Me: What part of speech is 'her'?

DS: pronoun

Me: What do pronouns do?

DS: replace nouns

---

 

We do this procedure for every word in the sentence. By the time we are through DS will have explained to me the difference between 'his' being a possessive pronoun and an adj., why 'angrily' is an adverb, why it is placed after 'her' and not before 'left' and why it cannot possibly be an adjective describing 'her'. We will have discussed the participial phrase - reiterating his tyrannical mandate - and distinguish it from other possible phrases (appositive, prepositional, gerund, etc.)

[Miss Marple]

It has been a while since I did any diagramming and neither of my children did it when they were in public school so you may take this with a grain of salt....

 

I don't think the 4level analysis is inferior in any way. If you do it right you will have identified, for each word in a sentence, the part of speech, the job of that part of speech, it's job in the sentence and what type of sentence it is as related to complexity and structure.

 

This is a typical discussion for my DS regarding a 4level analysis:

 

"He left her angrily, reiterating his tyrannical mandate." (from Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, 1816)

 

Me: What is grammar?

DS: A way of thinking about language.

Me: How many levels of grammar are there?

DS: 4

Me: What is the first level?

DS: Parts of speech

Me: How many Parts of speech are there?

DS: 8- nouns, verbs, adjectives, adverbs, prepositions...

Me: What part of speech is "he"?

DS: a pronoun

Me: What do pronouns do?

DS: replace a noun

Me: What type of pronoun is 'he'?

DS: subject pronoun

Me: is it singular or plural?

DS: singular

Me: 1st, 2nd or 3d person?

DS: 3d

Me: Can you tell the pronoun's antecedent?

DS: no.

Me: What part of speech is ' left'?

DS: a verb.

Me: What do verbs do?

DS: Shows action, being or links the subject to its complement

Me: What kind of verb is 'left', action or linking?

DS: action

Me: So what are we looking for?

DS: a direct object

Me: Can you identify the DO?

DS: Yes, 'her'.

Me: What part of speech is 'her'?

DS: pronoun

Me: What do pronouns do?

DS: replace nouns

---

 

We do this procedure for every word in the sentence. By the time we are through DS will have explained to me the difference between 'his' being a possessive pronoun and an adj., why 'angrily' is an adverb, why it is placed after 'her' and not before 'left' and why it cannot possibly be an adjective describing 'her'. We will have discussed the participial phrase - reiterating his tyrannical mandate - and distinguish it from other possible phrases (appositive, prepositional, gerund, etc.)

 

This is how we do it as well. I had a thorough grounding in diagramming in school so am comfortable adding some of that in as we work through the 4 levels. My boys are great on level 1 and 2, but 3 (phrases) is often a challenge, and level 4 is pretty easy once the vocabulary is learned (i.e., complex = dependent + independent clauses).

 

Sometimes I will do diagramming if the sentence is particularly tricky or if I see they are having trouble knowing what word modifies another, etc. I think both ways have their place. I prefer the 4 level because it seems to cover what we need most of the time. If a student has not been exposed to diagramming at all or if he has trouble identifying modifiers, I would add in diagramming. My boys did some diagramming in the early years so they are not totally unfamiliar with it.

[Saille]

Hmm.

 

We are still on Island Level. Prior to MCT, the only formal grammar instruction ds9 received was through his Latin.

 

Since he didn't previously memorize the parts of speech, lists of prepositions, etc., he frequently identifies parts of speech by asking himself what they are doing/modifying. So, for example, Sentence 50 in Practice Island reads:

 

Several species of minnow race through the shallow water.

 

One often sees this kind of sentence on the SAT, in the "Identifying Sentence Errors" section. The idea is that the objects of the prepositional phrases will confuse students. They will incorrectly identify the subject, and will therefore fail to catch a s/v disagreement error. So, the testers might alter the above sentence to read:

 

Several species of minnow races through the shallow water.

 

Getting back to the original sentence:

 

Several species of minnow race through the shallow water.

 

Ds did this one without me, although we do usually discuss them. He brought it to me when he was finished, and correctly explained that the first prepositional phrase modified species, and the second modified race. He knew that species was the subject.

 

Speaking as the only ps teacher I knew who advocated for sentence diagramming, I do like very much the visual created by four-level sentence analysis. I find it simple and clear.

 

I can't speak to how I'll feel about it as he moves through the program, but at the moment, I'm pretty content.

[Kuovonne]

if you diagram a word as a subject, you don't recognize that it is functioning as a noun?

 

I like labeling the parts of speech separately from the parts of the sentence. Sometimes DD mis-matches parts of speech & parts sentences, or knows one but not the other. Having to label both helps her make corrections and figure out missing parts.

 

In the 4-level analysis, what you don't see is how words modify each other as clearly as in diagramming.

 

I totally agree with this. 4-level analysis also doesn't show what conjunctions join, which diagramming does.

 

This is a typical discussion for my DS regarding a 4level analysis:

 

Wow, although a great discussion, it must takes a lot of your time. We're only on island level, but I hand DD the paper and have her write up everything that she can figure out on her own. Then we only discuss parts that she has trouble with (blank or incorrect parts).

[Granny_Weatherwax]

Wow, although a great discussion, it must takes a lot of your time. We're only on island level, but I hand DD the paper and have her write up everything that she can figure out on her own. Then we only discuss parts that she has trouble with (blank or incorrect parts).

 

Not really. At first it went a little slow but now we can whip through the three weekly sentences in about 25-30mins, depending upon the complexity of the sentences. DS also knows the process well enough that as soon as he says the verb is an action verb he rattles off everything associated with it. I don't have to ask all of the questions any more.

[radiobrain]

Well, I never had even heard of diagramming until this board.

 

I think that they most both be valid, in different ways and like most things, people have preferences.

 

I *dislike* the idea of diagramming for the reason that MCT said... you must learn a whole separate apparatus. Also, it keeps the sentence intact.

 

Also, the 4 level analysis morphs a bit when you get into the more complex sentences, with multiple types of phrases and more than one clause. The lower levels are simpler sentences.

[Spy Car]

It has been a while since I did any diagramming and neither of my children did it when they were in public school so you may take this with a grain of salt....

 

I don't think the 4level analysis is inferior in any way. If you do it right you will have identified, for each word in a sentence, the part of speech, the job of that part of speech, it's job in the sentence and what type of sentence it is as related to complexity and structure.

 

This is a typical discussion for my DS regarding a 4level analysis:

 

"He left her angrily, reiterating his tyrannical mandate." (from Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, 1816)

 

Me: What is grammar?

DS: A way of thinking about language.

Me: How many levels of grammar are there?

DS: 4

Me: What is the first level?

DS: Parts of speech

Me: How many Parts of speech are there?

DS: 8- nouns, verbs, adjectives, adverbs, prepositions...

Me: What part of speech is "he"?

DS: a pronoun

Me: What do pronouns do?

DS: replace a noun

Me: What type of pronoun is 'he'?

DS: subject pronoun

Me: is it singular or plural?

DS: singular

Me: 1st, 2nd or 3d person?

DS: 3d

Me: Can you tell the pronoun's antecedent?

DS: no.

Me: What part of speech is ' left'?

DS: a verb.

Me: What do verbs do?

DS: Shows action, being or links the subject to its complement

Me: What kind of verb is 'left', action or linking?

DS: action

Me: So what are we looking for?

DS: a direct object

Me: Can you identify the DO?

DS: Yes, 'her'.

Me: What part of speech is 'her'?

DS: pronoun

Me: What do pronouns do?

DS: replace nouns

---

 

We do this procedure for every word in the sentence. By the time we are through DS will have explained to me the difference between 'his' being a possessive pronoun and an adj., why 'angrily' is an adverb, why it is placed after 'her' and not before 'left' and why it cannot possibly be an adjective describing 'her'. We will have discussed the participial phrase - reiterating his tyrannical mandate - and distinguish it from other possible phrases (appositive, prepositional, gerund, etc.)

 

Thanks for this :001_smile:

 

Bill (who only wishes you'd kept going :tongue_smilie:)

[8filltheheart]

I like labeling the parts of speech separately from the parts of the sentence. Sometimes DD mis-matches parts of speech & parts sentences, or knows one but not the other. Having to label both helps her make corrections and figure out missing parts.

.

 

The reason I laughed at that comment is b/c it is impossible to not recognize the part of speech if you are going to diagram it correctly. How could you label a word an adv and then diagram it as a subject? :confused: And if you have a verbal functioning as a subject and you can identify the verbal, you are definitely beyond needing to label words as nouns. ;)

 

FWIW.....we label and parse prior to diagramming. Diagramming in and of itself is a skill. I actually enjoy taking sentences apart and figuring out the relations via diagramming b/c sometimes they are like mental puzzles that you have to solve. 4-level analysis does not require that depth of understanding.

 

My dd will flat out tell you that the 4-level analysis is no where near as mentally challenging. :D She would roll her eyes when we were doing MCT grammar, so we stopped.

 

As far as sentence classification, it really is a no brainer in terms of what type of sentence it is when you have to diagram the clauses/phrases, etc.

 

I don't introduce diagramming until they have completely mastered s,v, io, do, adj, adv, and subjective complement. Diagramming starts when I expect them to be able to identify prep phrases and what they are modifying.

[creekmom]

The reason I laughed at that comment is b/c it is impossible to not recognize the part of speech if you are going to diagram it correctly. How could you label a word an adv and then diagram it as a subject? :confused: And if you have a verbal functioning as a subject and you can identify the verbal, you are definitely beyond needing to label words as nouns. ;)

 

FWIW.....we label and parse prior to diagramming. Diagramming in and of itself is a skill. I actually enjoy taking sentences apart and figuring out the relations via diagramming b/c sometimes they are like mental puzzles that you have to solve. 4-level analysis does not require that depth of understanding.

 

My dd will flat out tell you that the 4-level analysis is no where near as mentally challenging. :D She would roll her eyes when we were doing MCT grammar, so we stopped.

 

As far as sentence classification, it really is a no brainer in terms of what type of sentence it is when you have to diagram the clauses/phrases, etc.

 

I don't introduce diagramming until they have completely mastered s,v, io, do, adj, adv, and subjective complement. Diagramming starts when I expect them to be able to identify prep phrases and what they are modifying.

 

a quick question for you... I thought I read that you like Analytical Grammar for teaching diagramming. Do you still like it or do you use a different program?

[8filltheheart]

a quick question for you... I thought I read that you like Analytical Grammar for teaching diagramming. Do you still like it or do you use a different program?

 

I love the sentences and I do use them. I'm not sure how to reply overall though. I don't use its grader for grading.

 

PM me if you would like more info.

[Kuovonne]

The reason I laughed at that comment is b/c it is impossible to not recognize the part of speech if you are going to diagram it correctly. How could you label a word an adv and then diagram it as a subject? :confused:

 

Exactly! Sometimes DD would label stuff incorrectly. For example, she would label a preposition as a direct object. However, when I pointed out the mis-match, she could recognize the mistake. Or, she would know that a word modifies another word, but not know the part of speech. Then I'd direct her to look at what it modifies, and then she could figure out that it was an adjective (or adverb).

 

If DD could diagram everything perfectly, she wouldn't make the mistakes she does in 4 level analysis. However, doing 4 level analysis helps her think through the the relationships between the 4 levels bit by bit.

 

Sometimes DD has trouble identifying what the subject and predicate of a sentence is. Sometimes she can find a prepositional phrase, but has no idea what it modifies until much later. 4 level analysis lets her tackle and write down the bits she knows in any order. With diagramming, you can't diagram the prepositional phrase until after you know where to put it. With 4 level analysis, you can label the parts of the phrase and then go back later to find what it modifies.

[radiobrain]

All this discussion really gets old.

 

It's like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. ;)

 

We are all fussing about a weird educational thingamabob that really won't have much effect on anything in the future. 4 level and diagramming are both fine. If your kid learns one or the other (or both) they will be light years ahead of most kids that have been educated in the past 15 years. Seriously, grammar is barely addressed. Our kids are lucky.

 

I can't be the only one who feels this way, can I?:001_huh:

[8filltheheart]

All this discussion really gets old.

 

It's like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. ;)

 

We are all fussing about a weird educational thingamabob that really won't have much effect on anything in the future. 4 level and diagramming are both fine. If your kid learns one or the other (or both) they will be light years ahead of most kids that have been educated in the past 15 years. Seriously, grammar is barely addressed. Our kids are lucky.

 

I can't be the only one who feels this way, can I?:001_huh:

 

:lol: Exactly how I feel about the insistence that somehow Asian math is the only way to learn math conceptually. ;)

 

There are differences. It really boils down to whether or not what you are teaching vs what is actually covered in the text creates the same level of understanding. Diagramming is not the only way to teach grammar and reach the same level of mastery. Labeling and parsing and lots of discussion will get you to the same pt. 4-level analysis w/o parsing--I'm not so sure. The main difference is that diagramming provides the mental exercise for visually creating those connections. Some kids can get there w/o it. Some will struggle even with it. Some people think just follow an algorithm b/c who cares. :D

[catz]

All this discussion really gets old.

 

It's like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. ;)

 

We are all fussing about a weird educational thingamabob that really won't have much effect on anything in the future. 4 level and diagramming are both fine. If your kid learns one or the other (or both) they will be light years ahead of most kids that have been educated in the past 15 years. Seriously, grammar is barely addressed. Our kids are lucky.

 

I can't be the only one who feels this way, can I?:001_huh:

 

:iagree: Right there with you.

[Crimson Wife]

I'm a newbie at this but I'll throw in my half cent anyway. I think both are useful.

 

:iagree:

I teach MCT 4 Level analysis first, and then sentence diagramming after the student has finished Practice Town. I think it's best to master finding the parts of speech, parts of the sentence, phrases, and clauses individually before worrying about putting it all together via diagramming.

[Kuovonne]

All this discussion really gets old.

 

It's like rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic. ;)

 

 

I'm sorry for getting caught up in the shuffling. Sometimes I feel like I am arguing for both sides in different posts. I believe that once either method is mastered, learning the other method is trivial. However, when first learning grammar, if you want to start with the parts of the sentence, diagramming is easier. But, if you want to start with the parts of speech, 4 level analysis is easier. Also, if the student has handwriting isuses and no-one to scribe for her, 4 level analysis is easier.

 

:lol: Exactly how I feel about the insistence that somehow Asian math is the only way to learn math conceptually. ;)

 

LOL. There was this huge thread about Cuisenaire Rods versus the AL Abacus. I ended up becoming passionate about both manipulatives. Similarly, I like 4 level analysis and diagramming, for their different strengths. Right now DD needs the extra scaffolding that 4 level analysis provides.

 

:iagree:

I teach MCT 4 Level analysis first, and then sentence diagramming after the student has finished Practice Town. I think it's best to master finding the parts of speech, parts of the sentence, phrases, and clauses individually before worrying about putting it all together via diagramming.

 

This method makes total sense to me. If I teach diagramming, it will be after DD masters basic 4 level analysis.

Edited November 20, 2010 by Kuovonne

[Oak Knoll Mom]

Sorry for disappearing from this thread. My dad is very sick and in the hospital. I'm looking forward to coming back soon to read everyone's opinions.