Week 3 of TOG with a 9th grader and it is kicking my....

[battlemaiden]

hiney. And my son is trying to keep a stiff upper lip, but he feels like he just went into warp speed.

 

I just came here desperate enough to search the threads and I see some suggestion that literature at the young R level is tough. "Here honey, read all this modernist/imagist poetry and let's discuss".....poor guy, he doesn't know what hit him.

 

Now I'm reading that many of you do a mix of dialectic/rhetoric for 9th and I would like to see how you do this *and* give credit for Literature.

 

I really feel like we should stick with it because he won't be exposed to modern lit before he goes to college. I'm learning a lot that I wish I had learned before being thrown into the deep end of higher education.

 

I'm rambling, because it is Friday and my head hurts from trying to figure all this out. I know we will figure it out, we always do, but I would SOOOOO appreciate some input from those who are here or have been here.

 

Thanks.

 

Jo

[choirfarm]

Hello Jo!!

 

Are you doing year 4 by any chance? I'm doing it with an 8th and 10th and modifying it some. For poetry, I have always done it with them. I don't read all the poems they say, but we read them together and analyze them. Rhetoric level lit is really hard. This is what I am doing this year:

 

Year 4 unit 1

American Regionalism short stories - 2 weeks.. I did some that TOG suggested and others that I had in my anthology from college like Neighbor Rosicky and To Build a Fire

Poetry- 2 weeks especially concentrating on Frost. I used the dialectic worksheet and then we analyzed the poems using some of the rhetoric tools together

All Quiet on the Western Front- 3 weeks including a test I made and watching the movie

Animal Farm- 2 weeks we are currently doing this. Both of my boys love this book. My 8th grader actually finished this book in a couple of days, but is now doing the questions I got with the Glencoe study guide. I used the Glencoe study guide for him rather than the deep TOG analysis. I did use some of the charts with him.

 

The boys always read the literature selections, but my 8th grader often does Progeny Press or Glencoe literary guides rather than the TOG analysis my 10th grader does. I discuss it with them together, though so he gets a lot of the analysis in discussion as a way of exposing him.

 

Unit 2

The Great Gatsby for 2 weeks. I actually taught this is ps so I will use many things I have.

The Pearl- 1 week

Our Town and Glass Menagerie- watching the movies and filling out the worksheets/ discussing TOG questions as we go. We'll watch one act and discuss a day.. So a little over a week for these.

Lord of the Flies- 2 weeks. I've taught this, so I have tons of materials

The Chosen- 3 weeks

 

Unit 3

A Separate Peace-2 weeks This is not a TOG selection, but I taught this to my 10th graders every year and the boys really liked it. I thought it would be interesting to compare the friendship of the two boys in the Chosen and the two boys in A Separate Peace

The Crucible- We will watch this and discuss it/analyze it as we go 1 week

To Live- 1 week ( never seen this, TOG recommends it)

Poetry- 1 week

Farenheit 451- 2 weeks

To Kill a Mockingbird- 2 weeks

 

Unit 4- I really deviated here

CS Lewis Space Trilogy with Progeny Press guides. 4 weeks or more

My oldest is doing a CS Lewis church history class and TOG has science fiction, so I substituted this here. They've also already read the Hobbit

12 Angry Men- one week

 

To be honest, I've stopped here because my oldest will spend the last few weeks preparing for essays for the AP exam or SAT II or whatever we decide he will do. I'm playing it by ear as to what we will do. They will have already read more than most high school English classes do. My oldest will have read all of CS Lewis' works this year for church history and my 8th grader will have done Pilgrim's Regress, Mere Christianity and the Screwtape Letters as well as the space trilogy and all of those are literature as well so...

 

I don't know if that helps or not. With a 9th grader, I would do some with him. I expected my boy to do the reading and the terms and he half answered the questions as he didn't understand many of them. That was ok, we just discussed them together. He got better and better at the questions as time went on. They really need guidance in how to read critically. For poetry, you can use some of the dialectic worksheets.

 

Good luck.

 

Christine

[Michelle My Bell]

My daughter is really smart... She is doing excellent work... She is in 10th grade and she only does the dialectic level. The Rhetoric level is too intense. It seems more like college level work to me. Oh and we are using TOG Year 4.

[Cinder]

My daughter is really smart... She is doing excellent work... She is in 10th grade and she only does the dialectic level. The Rhetoric level is too intense. It seems more like college level work to me. Oh and we are using TOG Year 4.

 

When we did Yr1 I got most of my history books used--and a number of them had college bookstore stickers on them!

 

Cinder

[silliness7]

Hello Jo!!

 

Are you doing year 4 by any chance? I'm doing it with an 8th and 10th and modifying it some. For poetry, I have always done it with them. I don't read all the poems they say, but we read them together and analyze them. Rhetoric level lit is really hard. This is what I am doing this year:

 

Year 4 unit 1

American Regionalism short stories - 2 weeks.. I did some that TOG suggested and others that I had in my anthology from college like Neighbor Rosicky and To Build a Fire

Poetry- 2 weeks especially concentrating on Frost. I used the dialectic worksheet and then we analyzed the poems using some of the rhetoric tools together

All Quiet on the Western Front- 3 weeks including a test I made and watching the movie

Animal Farm- 2 weeks we are currently doing this. Both of my boys love this book. My 8th grader actually finished this book in a couple of days, but is now doing the questions I got with the Glencoe study guide. I used the Glencoe study guide for him rather than the deep TOG analysis. I did use some of the charts with him.

 

The boys always read the literature selections, but my 8th grader often does Progeny Press or Glencoe literary guides rather than the TOG analysis my 10th grader does. I discuss it with them together, though so he gets a lot of the analysis in discussion as a way of exposing him.

 

Unit 2

The Great Gatsby for 2 weeks. I actually taught this is ps so I will use many things I have.

The Pearl- 1 week

Our Town and Glass Menagerie- watching the movies and filling out the worksheets/ discussing TOG questions as we go. We'll watch one act and discuss a day.. So a little over a week for these.

Lord of the Flies- 2 weeks. I've taught this, so I have tons of materials

The Chosen- 3 weeks

 

Unit 3

A Separate Peace-2 weeks This is not a TOG selection, but I taught this to my 10th graders every year and the boys really liked it. I thought it would be interesting to compare the friendship of the two boys in the Chosen and the two boys in A Separate Peace

The Crucible- We will watch this and discuss it/analyze it as we go 1 week

To Live- 1 week ( never seen this, TOG recommends it)

Poetry- 1 week

Farenheit 451- 2 weeks

To Kill a Mockingbird- 2 weeks

 

Unit 4- I really deviated here

CS Lewis Space Trilogy with Progeny Press guides. 4 weeks or more

My oldest is doing a CS Lewis church history class and TOG has science fiction, so I substituted this here. They've also already read the Hobbit

12 Angry Men- one week

 

To be honest, I've stopped here because my oldest will spend the last few weeks preparing for essays for the AP exam or SAT II or whatever we decide he will do. I'm playing it by ear as to what we will do. They will have already read more than most high school English classes do. My oldest will have read all of CS Lewis' works this year for church history and my 8th grader will have done Pilgrim's Regress, Mere Christianity and the Screwtape Letters as well as the space trilogy and all of those are literature as well so...

 

I don't know if that helps or not. With a 9th grader, I would do some with him. I expected my boy to do the reading and the terms and he half answered the questions as he didn't understand many of them. That was ok, we just discussed them together. He got better and better at the questions as time went on. They really need guidance in how to read critically. For poetry, you can use some of the dialectic worksheets.

 

Good luck.

 

Christine

 

I'm planning on doing TOG Year 4 next year with my (up and coming) 9th grader. Thank you for typing all this out. I am taking notes!

I can't remember if the OP was strictly about Literature. I'd love to hear history plans too if that's not a hijack. :001_smile:

[Lori D.]

Whoa, there, girl! Time for you to take hold of that steering wheel and YOU drive that curriculum, instead of letting it drive you! ;) :tongue_smilie:

 

Okay, I know you're looking for help from TOG users, and we've not done TOG (because I would think we *MUST* do it ALL -- LOL!) -- AND, all of this is JMO, so toss it out if it doesn't help -- BUT...

 

 

We did do 20th century lit. and history when DSs were grades 9 and 10 -- and it is HEAVY stuff! And if the list Choirfam posted represents what you're trying to cover... yowzah! Trying to cover TOO much intense deep stuff WAY to fast could really burn out your poor DS on literature his very first year of high school! May I suggest covering HALF the list (pick and choose what you think would be of most interest and most benefit), and go at a much slower pace. (And, just a thought, but is there any way to get some lighter, fun works in there to balance the heavy worldviews and horrific events of the 20th century?!)

 

Yes, you DO learn how to do the deep discussions at the rhetoric level -- but it is a slow process that builds over time, through all of high school, into college, and into adulthood.

 

Yes, you DO learn how to do the literary analysis and writing of analysis essays, and connect the history and lit. -- but you do it year by year in high school, so that the discussions and connections and analysis you can do as a 12th grader will be more in depth, more reasoned, more experienced. JMO, but it's just not fair to expect that same level of understanding from a 9th grader. Please consider saving some of these works and do them later in 11th and 12th grade when DS has a little more maturity under his belt and will be able to better appreciate -- or understand! -- the works. And save some for college and beyond and enjoy continuing your literature journey together as adults!

 

Remember:

- Literature is not a race.

- And literature is not about *quantity*.

A true Great Books study at a rhetoric level is to slow down your exposure to literature so you have time to absorb; re-read; really think about/discuss/analyze and dig deep into a few works -- but not every work you read in that year.

 

 

And finally -- I really mean to *encourage* you, not lecture :tongue_smilie:. So here are some big cyber hugs: (((Jo))) BEST of luck in finding a good balance! And my very warmest regards, Lori D.

[angela in ohio]

We're doing a mix of D/R, because I am combining my 8th and 9th graders. I don't know how much help I can be, as we are in Year 1, though. Just wanted to add another vote of confidence for mixing them. :001_smile:

 

I am also modifying TOG to skip some of the shorter, less relevant (imho) works and spend more time and attention on fewer (imho more important) works (Iliad, Odyssey, Aeneid, etc.,) sometimes bringing in other resources. Like Lisa said... dig deep into a few works. At the same time, I am sticking with TOG because of the history, government, questions, etc.

[Janice in NJ]

TOG offered an online Lit class this fall for high school credit. The course has already begun so you can't sign your son up. But the booklist might offer you so insight into how to merge D/R for a 9th grader who still needs high school credit.

 

Year 4 Bridge Literature is a high school level literature course that bridges the gap between dialectic and rhetoric literature. Students will read selections carefully chosen from both the dialectic and rhetoric reading list and learn literary analysis based on Poetics. As with all Tapestry courses the class will be comprised of a Socratic discussion, but the course teacher will also generate new weekly assignment sheets.

 

Call of the Wild

Short Stories for Young People: O Henry

Rilla of Ingleside

Poetry for Young People: Robert Frost

Animal Farm

Our Town

The Pearl

The Chosen

The Glass Menagerie

The Snow Goose

Old Man and the Sea

Fahrenheit 451

To Kill a Mockingbird

Lilies of the Field

The Hobbit

Poetry for Young People: Maya Angelou Class

 

Peace,

Janice

[yinne]

My 9th grade ds started TOG this year as well, but with Year 3. After looking over the rhetoric lit, I knew that if I had him do the rhetoric level it would kill his love of lit/reading. I have scaled it back and am doing a mixture of D/R selections and using a mixture of resources (Progeny Press, Glencoe, Prestwick, or TOG). Over the course of the year he will read between 6-8 books that we will study together. I am not planning on having him read the Poetics selections. He uses the high school lit book from CLE that gives him the 'literature vocabulary'. I used CLE literature last year with him and was amazed at how well he did and all that he learned.

 

On the other hand the D level is not nearly enough for my 8th grade dd and I'm having to add to it.

 

I started using TOG last year with my oldest and while it has been a positive experience with her and we have both learned a lot with TOG Lit, I would describe it as "Literature on Steroids!" It would not have been a positive experience with my son.

 

You need to make the curriculum work for you, not you work for the curriculum :)

 

Yvonne

[koko]

We did TOG for 5 years and there are many things I love about the curriculum. However, the Rhetoric Lit, especially in the Redesigned format, was very difficult for my boys...and even with a Master's in Psych and an undergrad minor in English, MY head was swimming!! At 9th grade, I would definitely advise using the Dialectic level. I actually think TOG doesn't suggest Rhetoric level until 10th grade.

[melmichigan]

I wanted to mention the Rhetoric Literature: How to Lighten the Load in case you weren't aware of it. We were discussing this on the K-8 board for some reason recently and many of us hadn't paged all the way to the end of the Literature document on the loom to see the 3 level chart recommendations for how to cut things out without loosing credit. That might help give you an idea of what TOG thinks is most important. It is where I am focusing my own review/preview.

[Jackie in AR]

Have you seen the suggestions for lightening each TOG year's literature load?

 

There is a document on the Loom for each year entitled "Teaching Rhetoric Literature." (At least that is what it is called for Years 3 and 4. Year 1's is called Customizing Year 1 Rhetoric Lit.) In that document, there will be a section entitled "Rhetoric Level Lit Meets Real Life." Take a look at that for the year plan you are doing. And also keep in mind that there are many programs out there that include fewer books than TOG does in a year and still give a full credit.

[choirfarm]

 

 

We did do 20th century lit. and history when DSs were grades 9 and 10 -- and it is HEAVY stuff! And if the list Choirfam posted represents what you're trying to cover... yowzah! Trying to cover TOO much intense deep stuff WAY to fast could really burn out your poor DS on literature his very first year of high school! May I suggest covering HALF the list (pick and choose what you think would be of most interest and most benefit), and go at a much slower pace. (And, just a thought, but is there any way to get some lighter, fun works in there to balance the heavy worldviews and horrific events of the 20th century?!)

 

D.

 

I may also depend on how much your children like to read and how much expose they have. My problem with the dialectic literature selections in Year 3 was that either my children had already read them or they were abridged. In year 4, my son has already read some of the really good ones like Call of the Wild. My boys love to read and I do slow down TOG to a certain extent. For example, I took out Metamorphasis and instead let us take 2 weeks on Animal Farm. However, my 8th grader finished it in 2 days and just spent the rest of the week finishing the questions so he could start the space triliogy . Although the themes are dark, the reading isn't really on most of the books. The vocabulary isn't nearly as tough as previous years rhetoric selections. If your child doesn't read as much, that is fine. If I remember correctly, we covered 1 major novel every 6 weeks in ps. (But it seemed like eternity to me.. I always finished them in the first few days and then had to crawl along with everyone else!!!)

 

To me, the key is to help them enjoy it. So take it at the pace THEY enjoy ( within reason). Poetry just kicks my boys' buts, so we always do it together. I also use movies for plays. I did when I taught Shakespeare as well. It just works better. Plays are meant to be seen and enjoyed. We would just stop after each act and discuss and THEN pull out the books and look at a few specific passages and such. My boys love Shakespeare in main part because I didn't recreate ps where we painfully read it aloud in class and spent FOREVER on it!! It was awful!! I remember the first time I showed a class Much Ado About Nothing. They were laughing so hard and told me this couldn't possibly be Shakespeare because it was funny.:001_huh: When I came there, they had normally spent a whole 9 weeks on Julius Caesar:tongue_smilie: I changed it to 3 weeks. It was SO much better. Watching Marlon Brando sway the crowd is just amazing and so much more effective. They could really see it as we stopped and analyzed it.

 

I love literature, though and my enthusiasm is probably catching. On the other hand, I hate, hate, hate science. I never had a good teacher and don't undestand it. (Though I know a lot more now.) Even my math/science guy loves literature. His favorite novel was Les Miserables last year ( and he read my original copy, not the abridged one TOG recommended) and he liked it so much he read Hunchback for fun!!!

 

So enjoy it together!!! That is the important part. Explore the themes. Friendship is a big one this year. Jealousy, power, justice are other ones. To me, there are so many things the boys can relate to this year in the literature. I left off Metamorphasis, Cherry Orchard and a few others, just like I left of Crime and Punishment last year. The cutting guide will give you a good idea. And the dialectic level in 4 really is a 9th grade course. They have enough literary analysis! They even have them reading some in the poetics and frameworks some which is great!! Mine had just read most of what was on that list and what they hadn't I incorporated for this year ( Our town) Oh... for poetry, I use the dialectic resources. Mine can't handle the rhetoric yet.

 

Christine