Mothers of both boys and girls - please talk me down

[Karenciavo]

This reply sounds much more reasonable, IMO, than your previous reply. I find the idea of you getting in mine or my dc's face because you are offended by our behavior offensive in and of itself. Based on that line alone, I would never want my DC to be in your presence with out me. :) And many here seem to have very high expectations of young guests, that don't "jive" with me. I really wouldn't want many of you caring for my DC. No offense.

 

ETA: Not that my DC are ill behaved. Household rules are just so personal, and while I can agree with basic rules- nitpicking about manners is over the top.

 

I did say in a nice way :) You know, crouch down, gently say, "Hey bud, look at me." I thought not allowing disrespectful behavior was pretty universal, but you're right, if you would expect me to shrug off rudeness I'm not the babysitter for you.

[Whisperlily]

I think people of all ages can handle loving conversations about poor behavior, that's what I'm advocating.

 

I love this sentence. :) Slide this into any conversation about behavior issues, and it fits.

 

Having a loving conversation, (and the wisdom to have the right words) as our natural default response when a pet-peeve behavior arises...

 

Well, that's just something that's harder than it sounds. ;) I'm glad we can come here and ask about the hows/why and seek perspectives and advice to add to our toolbox of wisdom.

[j.griff]

I don't think there IS a "nice way" to get "in someone's face". That is disrespecting personal body boundaries by a mile, IMO.

[Karenciavo]

I don't think there IS a "nice way" to get "in someone's face". That is disrespecting personal body boundaries by a mile, IMO.

 

How about if I say get on the same level, looking at each other eye to eye, not a casual conversation from across the room, but a heart to heart because really that's what I mean. I don't mean nose to nose, thrusting my index finger into someone's chest in anger.

 

My last response was a little snarky and I apologize.

 

Karen

[j.griff]

My last response was a little snarky and I apologize.

 

Apology accepted, :D

 

How about if I say get on the same level, looking at each other eye to eye, not a casual conversation from across the room, but a heart to heart because really that's what I mean. I don't mean nose to nose, thrusting my index finger into someone's chest in anger.

That sounds much more reasonable that what you stated in your (I believe it was your) first reply.

[lovemyboys]

I have 7 boys and none would dare speak to an adult that way and I wouldn't allow it, period.

 

 

Some dc wouldn't dare speak with that kind of rudeness to an adult. They see appropriate interactions modelled in the home between older sibs/parents and the way parents speak to each other and outside the home.

 

We had a boy Z on our coach-pitch baseball team who was in a hitting slump, swinging like he was holding a golf club and striking out alot. Z was mad one day and told the coach's son that *if your dad would stop pitching dog crap to me, I could hit the ball.*

 

At the next game, the coach's wife told Z's mom what Z had said to her son about the dad/coach. Z's mom was a bit embarrassed but howled with laughter. She apologized that he'd said it, but thought it was really funny.

 

It was amazing. I don't think most of the other kids on that team would ever say such a thing, heck they're only 6 or 7, most of them wouldn't even think it.

 

Doran, you did fine, like so many here have said. As the mom of ds who are older than 6, I think you do have to nip that kind of rude reaction and response in the bud firmly and quickly. Sometimes you help rephrase and redirect, but you can't let that stuff slide or the rudeness, taking for granted, impolite behavior just escalates. And then it goes outside the house to other people and becomes a general way of treating people. IMNSHO (!) you did him a favor, even if it was just a small moment. Otherwise, the world is full of rude little Zs running around.:tongue_smilie:

[j.griff]

Why is it acceptable for an adult to press a small child to answer a question, but it's rude if the small child who hasn't let learned self-control and is VERY upset on "foreign turf" to explode in anger at being pressed? Would you conisder a child pressing another child to "answer me" "answer me" to be rude?

"rudeness" is a matter of personal opinion, and I expect more civil behavior from adults than small children. IMO, pressing a struggling child for an answer just because that's what YOU want (and you happen to be an adult, and happen to be somewhat "in charge" of that small child) and what YOU expect from your own children is- is rude.

If an adult has such a lack of sympathy and self control (can't see what's going on, because you're seeing the situation through your own personal filter) to prevent them from pressing a small child for an answer to such a "useless" question, WHY and HOW do you expect a small child to so more restraint and give the forced answer in a pleasant tone with pleasant words?

When adults are incapable of setting a good example by walking away, or just by saying something like "I'd like to hear...", IMO, they have no right or reason to expect more of a very young child.

That's just MY take in the situation. I think a mountain was made of a molehill, I think an adult was "picking at" a child in a stressful situation, and I think that should be avoided in the future. :)

 

ETA: I don't think that what I said above is exactly the same scenario that played out in the OP. I was just trying to make a point, in response to so many posts about how un-acceptable a child's "rude" behavior is, and how we should not tolerate such behavior from other people's children in our homes, etc.

I do believe this child was "cornered", and repsonded with agression at feeling cornered. I still expect adults to model loving, caring, gentle correction of such children, as opposed to "nipping it in the bud". I think that many families have different ideas of what is "rude", and what is "acceptable"- and that we should not expect other people (children or adults) to follow the same "rules" that we do.

[Doran]

...We just move on, right? Which is what I would've done when this little boy didn't reply. Of course it's preferable when children (and adults) answer when spoken to. My guys would have ~ and btw, I don't see this as a gender issue. But if some kid who's over for a few hours doesn't respond, whatever.

...you sound like you have a chip on your shoulder about these kids and my knee-jerk reaction from the moment I started reading your initial post is that you should just opt out of having them over again.

 

I could have a chip on my shoulder. I'll take that on and admit that my reaction to this specific incident was colored by many other past experiences. And, as said above (not sure you saw that post), I will have much greater conviction about not having the three boys here again in the future. In and of itself, that feels difficult given that I know how hard it is for a mother to have someone say..."I'll take the kid who doesn't ruffle my feathers. Those other two, you'll have to find other situations for them." But, I'll do that, in more tactful terms, because I will have learned from today's episodeS, that it's not the right choice.

 

The other side to this story lies in all the ways I've witnessed the rude behavior, and the ways I dealt with it just today.

 

Examples (forgive me if these are redundant...I can't remember everything I've posted at this point).

 

1. Last night, when youngest wasn't allowed to spend the night, he burst into tears, and somewhere in the ensuing meltdown, he proceeded to call me stupid. His dad was there and said nothing in particular about that, so I said, "You know, we don't use the word STUPID in our house, and that hurts my feelings."

 

2. Minutes after little guy arrives today, his big brother (Aspie) reneges on his promise to let little guy use his PSP game. So words fly, and I go immediately to intervene. The two are hot, and I'm trying to talk some sense into them. I start with the oldest and tell him how wrong it is to go back on his promise. When he won't budge I tell them that it's very simple for me to just send them home NOW (their dad had only just gone across the street at that point to the library). Oldest acquiesces. Youngest then toss-throws his brother's PSP on the floor. It was pure spite. I had to be the one to make both boys apologize. Great start to our day.

 

3. Today, after Dad arrived and little guy was departing, I asked boy to leave by a different exit. His father backed me up and asked his son to leave by a different exit. Boy proceeds to exit out the door I had specifically asked him not to use.

 

 

So, as much as I may have backed the boy into a corner, I stand by my statement that he is allowed to get away with a considerable amount of rude behavior. I admit to being "on my guard" so to speak. I may have provoked the situation I chose to post about by expecting him to answer me. But, the bigger picture - of which these examples are just tip of the iceberg - supports my belief that I was not in error to try to correct his behavior. What I really did wrong was to not listen to my inner voice when it told me to avoid this situation in the first place. As I've already stated, I'll do my very best to not do that again.

 

Doran

[j.griff]

Doran, I really think you are overreacting to these situations, honestly. You hurt the boys feelings by specifically telling him he couldn't spend the night. He was hurt, and he thought you were being stupid. :D

Don't take it personally, and may I ask if he was in your home when he said this? (Curious, because you used the words, "in our home..."). You may not agree with the use of such language, but MANY many families use such words and don't see them as being "rude", or maybe not "uncalled for".

 

Youngest was angry at brother for making a promise and then taking it back. He is probably resentful that oldest has such a game, and holds it over his head I'm sure. Yes, he was being spiteful, but a little understanding of the situation would go a looooong way. You don't agree with his behavior- but he's just a child.

You don't agree with his parents parenting, and I think you'd be better off just letting them know that up front, so they can prepare their child for future disappointments in not being invited to your home when his brother/s is/are.

 

Again, making a mountain out of a mole hill. Child was probably uspet with you, and just wanted to have SOME control over the situation by choosing which door he left. Not a big deal in the general scheme of things, until someone makes it a big deal.

 

I think you should just tell the mom that you don't get along with him, and just can't have him in your home again.

 

I usually find your posts to be level headed, and I agree that the boy's behavior was rude. I just find your response to his behavior to be a bit "much". Hugs, I know you were probably cranky with the situation in general, and then those "triggers" were thrown on top of it all. If you could/would just set a VERY clear boundary with his parents, you won't have to deal with it again. Your personalities are NOT compatible.

[Doran]

Doran, I really think you are overreacting to these situations, honestly. You hurt the boys feelings by specifically telling him he couldn't spend the night. He was hurt, and he thought you were being stupid. ...[snip]...

I usually find your posts to be level headed, and I agree that the boy's behavior was rude. I just find your response to his behavior to be a bit "much". Hugs, I know you were probably cranky with the situation in general, and then those "triggers" were thrown on top of it all. If you could/would just set a VERY clear boundary with his parents, you won't have to deal with it again. Your personalities are NOT compatible.

 

 

 

I have PMed you. But, to answer specifically here -- yes, he was in my home when he made that remark. :001_smile:

 

 

Doran

[Whisperlily]

Doran's going to be more :ack2: about explaining the event over and over through the responses here than the she was with whole episode with the 6 year old!

 

:leaving:

[j.griff]

LOL. I'm sorry Doran, I wuv ya, and you know it. ;)

[gardenschooler]

Well, I'll have to go back and finish reading the replies later. It looks like you got a bushelful of advice. :)

 

I know absolutely nothing about boys, but I've seen a snarling girl or two (or ten dozen!). Whether they're boy or girl, they're still human, are they not?

 

In a word, inexcusable. I don't care what, when, where, how or why. I don't care if mom lets them do it. I don't care if he has behavioral issues.

 

Kids *know* to be on their better behavior around people other than Mom & Dad. That's why we get such cheery smiles from our own all the time! (NOT!).

 

He may have reacted, he may have been in that electronic daze that overtakes them and, like a drug, nothing else is as important at that second. It still doesn't matter. You do not - ever- turn to an adult that is hosting you in her home and snap, "So why are you even talking to me?"

 

Period. And he knows that, and you know that, and I would be more than happy to tell his mom and let her beat the, I mean, talk to him about it. Maybe she'll see that her method just ain't doing the trick.

 

This is just a cruddy week. It's almost surreal, all these instances of snarling.

 

I had a teenage girl say something to me last night that left me speechless.

 

I feel for you. It feels like being spat upon, doesn't it? Hopefully he won't do it again. And if he does, hopefully it will turn into something he can learn from and realize that is NOT OKAY. He needs to know this. Heck, everyone needs to know this! Why don't we?

[gardenschooler]

Later, when the mood is changed you can talk about how "in our house we do it this way."

 

Though I agree with the other posts that you did fine, simply telling him the rules in your home firmly, I do agree with the above.

 

Ladies, I am really not trying to be confrontational about this. I understand different rules on saying "Yes, Ma'am, " and things like that, but isn't answering someone when they speak to you (especially an adult) sort of universal decent behavior? Not someone's different house rules?

 

I agree that it is probably to be expected by a 6 yr. old (or any age, for that matter), to his parents, siblings, etc., if he were in an aggravated state. I would be very surprised to hear a child say something like this to someone else, though.

 

How can this be a house rule?

[j.griff]

How about 'if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all'? :)

 

And FWIW, AIUI now- Doran asked boy what's wrong, boy didn't reply. Doran prompted him to reply, he replied civilly (somewhat), Doran made a statement attempting to comfort him, that just really set him off (I don't think she had any idea that would be the result of her statement) and he replied rudely.

I had a mixed up understanding of events in my previous replies- but I still wouldn't find it "rude" of him to not reply-in and of itself. I'd just shrug and say something like,"Okay, if you want to talk to me you know where I am". BUT- I am an introvert- so I GET that (not wanting to answer someone). Sometimes, you're just thinking stuff through in your head, working out WHAT To say or whether you Should say anything- and that comes across to others as a non-response. A 6 year old not replying is NOT a big deal, IMO.

[gardenschooler]

How about 'if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all'? :)

 

A 6 year old not replying is NOT a big deal, IMO.

 

I agree with this. My answer was more to the 'why are you talking to me' comment. But I know nothing about boys, nothing. No brothers, no sons. But the not answering - I've seen that a lot, even from kids other than my own. I wouldn't have been overly upset at that, it was the comment afterwards - even though I think it's universal to answer someone when they speak to you, I agree that kids need a reminder on that often. I was just taken aback at the 'why are you talking to me?' snarl afterwards. That's where it changed from what I've seen to something I really can't imagine. I would have had the same reaction as Doran, and with everything else - well, it would be more than I could take.

 

I used to think my girls were full of sass at home around that age. They'd pout and whine and argue with me. I was always shocked to get such *glowing* reports back on their behavior everywhere they went. So it led me to believe kids are kinda afraid to act out towards other adults.

 

But what do I know? I probably scared the beans out of 'em before they went. (I'm pretty sure you wouldn't take me for a babysitter, Jenn! LOL). I know one thing - girls, my girls, anyway - cared what people thought of them. Not for any good reason, they just would have been mortified to have to be corrected by someone else. Weird, huh? Here they have the most insensitive mom on the planet, and if someone else says, "We don't do that," to them, they crumble. Who can figure these kids out? :tongue_smilie:

 

I also don't have any experience with aspies, or siblings of. So I don't know the dynamics that can factor in. But I've learned a lot in this thread, which may be of some use to me someday, if a situation ever occurs - I might be able to understand the behavior issues a little better and not just lump everyone into the same category of needing to exercise self-control. So this has been a very helpful thread, not only to Doran.

[earthmother]

I have a major issue with game boys and Psp's and such because it makes children anti-social. I see it in all of my friend's children and my own from time to time. We fought the whole technology issue for years and now we allow it for very limited times. BUT!!! I truly believe we are doing a disservice to our children by allowing them to be plugged in as much as we do. Because they are always on the computer or witha game in hand, these children can't deal with real life issues, hold a proper conversation, and frankly they are just boring. I get bored and annoyed talking to a kid that is a tech head. they don't know how to play!! And, my husband who teaches middle school (and has for 20 years) talks about how horrid the social skills have become over the years because all they do is text message.

 

I think you did the right thing!!! These kids need to be taught by someone that their behavior is not appropriate. A child should never snap back at an adult. Way to go!!

 

sorry to be on a soap box, but give our society a few more years including the moms and dads who can't get off their cell phones and we'll see how great we are as a human race.

 

And while I'm at it, I went to visit a friend with a new baby. There were 4 adults there and not one of them looked up at me from their Wii game to say hello. the new mom proceeded to hand off the baby to me (which I gladly held her) and play with the other 3 adults all the while ignoring me.

UGH

[Pamela H in Texas]

I agree that it is probably to be expected by a 6 yr. old (or any age, for that matter), to his parents, siblings, etc., if he were in an aggravated state. I would be very surprised to hear a child say something like this to someone else, though.

 

Whoa....There is a MAJOR misunderstanding :)

 

The post I was replying to was saying that the OP pushed the issue with the child unnecessarily. Oh how many times I've been trying to process something and just wish someone would offer, "if you need to talk" and then just LEAVE ME ALONE. And my son, at 6, SO would not have been able to answer her, so I understand from that point of view also. So my comment was about when she insisted on an answer from an obviously upset child.

 

I also didn't like the OPs reply when the child DID answer.

 

HOWEVER, and PLEASE understand this. There is absolutely no excuse (outside moderate to severe disability which doesn't seem to be the case) for what the child said next. I most certainly would have put him in his place in a heartbeat. And if it were MY child, I would most certainly want to know because you are right-- This isn't about a house rule. This is about a child who needs discipline to help him learn to behave acceptably in such situations.

 

I hope that clarifies my position. I most certainly wasn't suggesting that it was EVER okay for a child to be outright ugly to anyone. I don't put up with a child expressing himself inappropriately. He can do it appropriately or he can leave (or in the case of my own kids, deal with our discipline). I did mean that he should be given the opportunity to process his feelings quietly. Being sad, mad, etc should be perfectly okay, even for someone else's kid. It isn't my job to make them happy all the time.

[lovemyboys]

I was just trying to make a point, in response to so many posts about how un-acceptable a child's "rude" behavior is, and how we should not tolerate such behavior from other people's children in our homes, etc.

 

ETA: I don't think that what I said above is exactly the same scenario that played out in the OP.

I still expect adults to model loving, caring, gentle correction of such children, as opposed to "nipping it in the bud". I think that many families have different ideas of what is "rude", and what is "acceptable"- and that we should not expect other people (children or adults) to follow the same "rules" that we do.

 

Wow.

I realize that you chose to respond to my post with a response aimed at many of the posts here.

 

I'm confused at some of your points here as a response to what I wrote. Just for the record, my house is a neighborhood hangout, because I do treat all my guests with love and acceptance. We have several friends with aspie who my children know and love and play well with. It's part of our life.

 

My point, with a very specific example, to the OP was that she was right to correct a child's repeated rude behavior to her. Not just the little gameboy moment, but repeatedly. This little guy has a family that is dealing with asperger's in their older son and parenting challenges. He's been allowed to get away with some fairly belligerent behavior. I stand by my response that Doran was ok to try to correct the rude responses she was getting. We're not talking about the lack of a "ma'am" here, and while I might not have challenged the little guy, I didn't get the feeling that Doran was down in his face shaking a finger at him. She just let him know he needed to speak respectfully. I think most families have some basic "house rules" like no name calling. And he'd been saying rude things to her whether his parents are there or not.

 

In one of the earlier posts, you said that you never allow your dc in other's homes without you. But mine often do go to play with others, with and without me, so I try to work with them. Are they perfectly well behaved? Of course not! But I know and trust that the other parents will treat them kindly and correct them if needed.

 

The example I gave in my first post was a child whose parents haven't bothered to "nip it in the bud" because they think his outspoken rudeness is cute and precocious.

 

That was my point for Doran, fwiw. And this is my clarification, fwiw, for the part of my original post that moved you to respond. Sorry if my choice of terms or something else bugged you, I didn't mean to offend. :001_smile:

[Colleen]

Ladies, I am really not trying to be confrontational about this. I understand different rules on saying "Yes, Ma'am, " and things like that, but isn't answering someone when they speak to you (especially an adult) sort of universal decent behavior? Not someone's different house rules?

 

In a nutshell, yes. It is universal decent behavior. Or should be. But the question is, can we force others to abide by what we consider universally decent behavior? If so, how do we do that? Can we ~ should we ~ try to elicit compliance by announcing, "XYZ is our house rule" or "XYZ is universally-accepted decent behavior"? Perhaps, if the situation lends itself to that opportunity. And if we're able to do so without getting worked up.

[Colleen]

I stand by my statement that he is allowed to get away with a considerable amount of rude behavior.

 

I never implied otherwise. Yes, it sounds like he's not parented well. You knew that beforehand and were/are justifiably uncomfortable with that.

 

What I really did wrong was to not listen to my inner voice when it told me to avoid this situation in the first place. As I've already stated, I'll do my very best to not do that again.

 

I understand that. I believe the best option is to not watch any of these boys because of their behavioral issues and your feelings about those issues.

[Pamela H in Texas]

In a nutshell, yes. It is universal decent behavior. Or should be. But the question is, can we force others to abide by what we consider universally decent behavior? If so, how do we do that? Can we ~ should we ~ try to elicit compliance by announcing, "XYZ is our house rule" or "XYZ is universally-accepted decent behavior"? Perhaps, if the situation lends itself to that opportunity. And if we're able to do so without getting worked up.

 

Right. And really, kids are still learning. It is amazing to me how many people get angry at young children for not having learned yet (whether due to age, circumstance, poor parenting, etc). Well, and even more amazing how adults get angry at young children for not having learned something when they, in the same episode even, have shown they also aren't perfect.

 

Again, I'm not saying be permissive, not even with someone else's kid in your home. I tend to run a very tight ship period and my experience is that kids adjust just fine. I just think we have to be a bit more mindful.

[Liz CA]

 

Am I just off base? Are boys that much different than girls? I don't live under a rock all the time (smile), but sometimes things slip by me. Was I wrong to expect an answer from the boy in the first place? :confused: :mad: :confused:

 

 

Doran

 

a license to be rude! I would rain down seriously on my son if he behaved this way with someone else. If he did this at home, there would be consequences. Frustration with gadgets used to result in the gadget being taken away for some time until peace and internal balance was restored (not just hours, but days or weeks) and we would talk about self-control. Had a few of those conversations over the years, fewer now.

[5kidsforME]

Am I just off base? Are boys that much different than girls? I don't live under a rock all the time (smile), but sometimes things slip by me. Was I wrong to expect an answer from the boy in the first place? :confused: :mad: :confused:

 

 

Doran

 

 

Doran, I have 3 boys, almost 9, almost 5, and almost 4. No way are they allowed to talk to anyone like that. Not their father, not their mother, not their brother, not their cousins, not the nasty kid next door....NO ONE. No you were not wonrg. Obviously since you have had issues with this boy before it sounds like the way his parents, parent.

[j.griff]

No offense, and no hard feelings here. Your post just happened to be the last one I was reading at the time, when I typed that reply in response to all the posts I'd read that had little snippets (or whole posts) that "bothered" me.

What *I* "heard" when I read your last bit

Sometimes you help rephrase and redirect, but you can't let that stuff slide or the rudeness, taking for granted, impolite behavior just escalates. And then it goes outside the house to other people and becomes a general way of treating people. IMNSHO (!) you did him a favor, even if it was just a small moment. Otherwise, the world is full of rude little Zs running around.

was:

You're doing the world a favor by going around vanquishing impolite behavior- that those who speak out against any perceived infraction of etiquette deserve a big pat on the back; and that those who have different values, different ideas of etiquette, etc. are a blight to be "conquered". And that is not solely based on your reply alone, but by the "tone" that *I* perceived while reading this entire thread- indeed that is very likely NOT the message you were attempting to send.

I've been tired, I've been cranky, and I've been so offended by intolerance, that I am intolerant of anything *I* perceive as intolerance.

[lollie010]

I have read every post of this thread with great anticipation. I have nothing to add about this particular situation, but I am dealing with a precious son that has "difficulty processing his emotions" and it sometimes comes out as what some would term rude or unacceptable behaviour. It is interesting to see how different people react. I have learned alot from the discussion.

 

With my particular son, I think that I am in the "process" of helping him to make better and more mature choices each day. I do not think a "nip it in the bud" approach would ever work with him. So yes there will be moments when another adult would access my situation and say I am not firm enough or I am lax, but they might not see the hours and hours of time that is spent day to day trying to help him develop in character.

 

So it is always hard for me to hear someone say that a parent is not doing enough or not doing it right when it comes to training their children, because in general I think most of us are just doing the best that we can.

 

Just wanted to let everyone know that I have gleaned alot from both sides of this discussion.

 

Laurel T.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Laurel,

 

You have a good point. Regarding my son, I always felt like "I only have the same 16-21 years everyone else has," yet I understood that I had to start with where he was and that we had to work much harder to make every step of progress. And though I'm very strict and run a tight ship (and am a "nip it in the bud" type naturally), I had to make sure I was being reasonable also. Though in some ways, those very qualities HELPED me parent, they were also a part of me I had to keep in check in order to help this child. Parenting him made me grow more than any child does in 13 years!

 

But you're right. There were times when people just didn't understand. And other times they just didn't agree. And yet I have a wonderful 13yo boy (how many people put wonderful, teen age, and boy in the same sentence?) :) My efforts were worth it. We still have plenty to tweak, of course (who doesn't?). But I just wanted to encourage you that it does pay off :)

[Doran]

I've been tired, I've been cranky, and I've been so offended by intolerance, that I am intolerant of anything *I* perceive as intolerance.

 

 

Whether you intended it to be or not, this was funny!! Reminds me of that cross stitch my mother has hanging in her bathroom that says,

 

Lord, grant me patience. BUT HURRY!

 

 

Thanks for your input. :)

 

Doran