s/o child abuse death: how long for time out?

[Halcyon]

I have had to lock DD in her room by holding the door closed. At times if I didn't she would continue to yell and scream and physically assault me after being "sent" to her room.

 

That image makes me feel for you, and your daughter.

[Sputterduck]

I can think of several books I've read that have specifically talked about staying with/holding toddlers/preschoolers during tantrums, including some attachment parenting books, and Becoming the Parent You Want To Be. I think I took away from these books the idea that I should be able to stay calm no matter what, and that being physically beside/with my child was always preferable. It took me a while to understand that this wasn't going to work with ds.

 

 

Yikes! I heard a bunch of conflicting stuff on what to do when my child tantrums. When he did for the first time, after all the different advice, I had no idea what to do. lol So... I just sat there in shock (which was basically the same as ignoring him). He went on for 50 minutes, and would even stop to see if I was paying attention. After that long he gave up and barely ever had a tantrum again. I am now a big believer in ignoring them. lol Of course, if a person has not been ignoring them from the start, then it takes a long time to convince a child that they really will be ignored and of course tantrums escalate for awhile. But I'm so glad I fully ignored his first one, even if it was due to shock on my part and not any sort of parenting savvy.

[dragons in the flower bed]

my sister had all her children removed from her care when she put her 2 year old and 6 year old together in the bath unattended. she was living in a women's shelter at the time. she got them all back 6 months later.

 

I like to make a study of how kids are treated and how they turn out. I wish I had research $$ to study this.

 

I know a couple that made special straps to keep their infants pinned down to the crib so they would have to stay in sleeping position. They'd let them cry there like that all night long. Both of their children are grown now. One has an amazing job, beautiful & brilliant wife, and a dream home. The other is a once-homeless, now schmoozing-and-womanizing drug addict. Both of the children love and adore their parents. This confounds me.

[Sputterduck]

I like to make a study of how kids are treated and how they turn out. I wish I had research $$ to study this.

 

I know a couple that made special straps to keep their infants pinned down to the crib so they would have to stay in sleeping position. They'd let them cry there like that all night long. Both of their children are grown now. One has an amazing job, beautiful & brilliant wife, and a dream home. The other is a once-homeless, now schmoozing-and-womanizing drug addict. Both of the children love and adore their parents. This confounds me.

 

Wow... That's shocking.

[IsabelC]

Both of the children love and adore their parents. This confounds me.

A sort of Stockholm syndrome?

[keptwoman]

A sort of Stockholm syndrome?

Or perhaps loving parents who did lots of things well, that made up for the few crappy decisions they made?

[dragons in the flower bed]

Or perhaps loving parents who did lots of things well, that made up for the few crappy decisions they made?

 

::shrug:: I'll never know. I would really like to, though. My own parents, mistake-makers like every other parent on the planet since humanity began, used to call me Nosy Rosy. This sort of thing is precisely why.

 

(P.S. Anyone caught calling me either nosy or Rosy is dead meat. :P )

[keptwoman]

::shrug:: I'll never know. I would really like to, though. My own parents, mistake-makers like every other parent on the planet since humanity began, used to call me Nosy Rosy. This sort of thing is precisely why.

 

(P.S. Anyone caught calling me either nosy or Rosy is dead meat. :P )

Yes. We will never know. I just get a bit antsy when people judge others as bad parents for one choice they made when their children were babies. They may have spent many years regretting the decision to tie their children to their beds, or they may still feel it was the right thing to do but overall have been positive and caring parents. One choice does not a bad (or unattached) parent make.... thank goodness, or all of us would fail miserably.

[Sputterduck]

Yes. We will never know. I just get a bit antsy when people judge others as bad parents for one choice they made when their children were babies. They may have spent many years regretting the decision to tie their children to their beds, or they may still feel it was the right thing to do but overall have been positive and caring parents. One choice does not a bad (or unattached) parent make.... thank goodness, or all of us would fail miserably.

 

I don't know. There are choices that are just so abusive. Keeping an infant *tied* to their bed in one position all night long is far into the realm of abuse. Maybe they've repented, and that's awesome. But that was very certainly far beyond a parenting choice that can easily be overlooked.

[keptwoman]

Well, in the Pearls thread there are posts from parents who tried the Pearls methods (which come pretty darn close to abuse IMHO) and realised that they were not ideal choices. Does that mean regardless of what choices they made after that realisation, they are still abusive parents? I think not.

 

I used a product for my babies which did just that with the aim of preventing SIDS by stopping them rolling to their tummies or sliding under blankets. Now if they cried I went to them, but I also sleep trained mine at some point while they were still in their Safe T Sleep, so I guess some would call me abusive. http://www.safetsleep.com/

 

We don't know enough about why/how/when etc to really make a judgement on this, and I still stand by the fact that a parent doing one thing when their children were babies does not write off a lifetime of possibly good parenting.

[~Kirsten~]

Like others, I find it hard to vote, even with two girls who are close in age and on the young end of the scale. We do use occasional and perhaps traditional time outs, though now that my youngest is 3.5, those are quite rare. For a time out, we've always used the minutes = age thing, though usually not even that long. We've used them mostly as an immediate change of direction, which is why the time isn't as important.

 

Sending a child, involuntarily, to her room is a whole different thing, at least in our household. Doing so is reserved for times when a child's behavior is disturbing to the rest of the family and has continued even after a request to stop. Doors are open, and once the child calms, she may return. Or not. Bedrooms here have books and loveys, and for my oldest who is an introvert, they allow for space from others, especially her younger sister. So it's not a punishment for any of us, really, when she needs some time in her room. She'll actually rage and scream that she is absolutely NOT going to her room, all while walking up to her room. :lol: She truly needs that time to decompress.

 

Now, I suspect that technique won't work in the same way with my younger daughter. We have used it, though quite rarely, but she's much more of a people person, and for her, we've learned, it IS more punitive. She wants to be around us, and to separate her like that leads to true sorrow. She's the one, though, that's inclined to strike out physically first, so sometimes she needs to be separated briefly. But she doesn't need the separation and space to decompress like my eldest. In fact, we're learning it's better to send her older sister away and sit with her while she calms down. It's a learning process, though, for all of us.

 

It's a bit funny as I think about the time frames, as we do a rest time in the afternoons and our girls are in bed by 7 (and sometimes my eldest will still be awake and reading when we go to bed at 10), yet that feels far different than sending them, punitively, to their bedrooms for a similar period of time. :tongue_smilie: Though not there yet, I can't imagine setting a time frame on my 11-year-old.

 

Thanks for bringing this up. The varying responses are quite interesting.

[Lovedtodeath]

I get down to my kid's eye level and talk with them. If they can't talk because they're too upset, I sit with them. It really depends on what they did that bothered me. I work hard (only successful about 60% of the time!!! :001_smile:) to see things not from my perspective, but from theirs. What's going on in their head that's causing them to act this way? How am I contributing? Did I sleep enough last night, or not (usually not) and is this causing me to be less patient, less understanding, more short-tempered? Now, if the child is going ballistic (as happened tonight with my 7 yo) I try and think what's going on with them? I knew my son had gotten up too early this morning and he was very tired, so I told him he would need to go to bed early as he was tired. I told him his behavior was poor, but that I also behave poorly whenI don't sleep well. I tried not to accuse him or blame him or 'get hard' on him, because he is hard enough on himself. ...

 

.... But I think, first and foremost, that when a child is acting up we need to look inwards, speak softly and clearly, and try not to 'punish'.

edited for space... This post is simply wonderful, especially for those with kids who have special needs. As an adult with special needs, this is how I feel I should be treated.

 

That image makes me feel for you, and your daughter.

Thank you. We were floundering around for a while. Thankfully this never happens anymore.

 

I like to make a study of how kids are treated and how they turn out. I wish I had research $$ to study this.

I completely agree. Edited February 25, 2010 by Lovedtodeath

[RobinF]

Sending a child, involuntarily, to her room is a whole different thing, at least in our household. Doing so is reserved for times when a child's behavior is disturbing to the rest of the family and has continued even after a request to stop. Doors are open, and once the child calms, she may return. Or not. Bedrooms here have books and loveys, and for my oldest who is an introvert, they allow for space from others, especially her younger sister. So it's not a punishment for any of us, really, when she needs some time in her room. She'll actually rage and scream that she is absolutely NOT going to her room, all while walking up to her room. :lol: She truly needs that time to decompress.

 

 

We actually do the same thing. We will send them to their room if they are "throwing a fit" as we call it. We started it when my oldest was little maybe 3. It allowed me some space and allowed him to calm down. They all know that as soon as they are calm they can come out and we will talk but for me it takes the heat out of the moment and helps me control my reaction. My 3 yo will actually just walk down the hall and then come back and say "mama, I stopped the fit". :lol:

 

Now this only works with 3 of our boys, we have one with asperger's that this totally backfires. Hard to explain but it just doesn't work at all with him.

[katilac]

I know a couple that made special straps to keep their infants pinned down to the crib so they would have to stay in sleeping position. They'd let them cry there like that all night long. Both of their children are grown now. One has an amazing job, beautiful & brilliant wife, and a dream home. The other is a once-homeless, now schmoozing-and-womanizing drug addict. Both of the children love and adore their parents. This confounds me.

 

Pinning infants (and much older children) to the crib used to be a very standard practice. One didn't need to have special straps made; they were easily available, or parents simply used safety pins. I always laugh a bit at the "keeping babies in bed" posts here, b/c someone is BOUND to make the comment that this wasn't an issue back in the day, you know, when all kids were sweet and obedient, when really, it wasn't an issue because the kids were pinned or strapped into bed. There has never been a time when 2-yr-olds didn't have the tendency to wander out of bed, and there never will be.

 

I digress. Back to the point - - while it isn't something I ever thought of doing, pinning a young child to the bed is hardly abuse on the level of frequent or abusive whippings. Like another poster said, they might have been brilliant and loving parents otherwise, and one crappy decision that you disagree with doesn't mean you won't love your parents dearly. ((at least, all of us imperfect parents better hope so!!))

 

Just for fun, I'll share another parenting technique from back in the day: to keep small children from wandering off outside, hammer a thin wooden pole into the ground. Then lift up the child and slide them down the pole, so that the pole is in between the back of their shirt or dress and the child. Instant restraints, lol! Gives 'staking' a child a whole new meaning. This one was more common in frontier days, while pinning babies to the crib was common until at least the 1950s.

 

Folks, let's keep in mind that most parents are loving and do the best they can. Never be too proud of your parenting decisions; they can ALL come back to bite you in the butt. The child who is left to cry at night might resent what they consider neglect; the child who sleeps with his parents until 12 might resent what they consider fostering over-dependence.

[lionfamily1999]

In the Virginia Knowles blog linked to from the Timberdoodle blog posted here on the abuse death thread, Knowles writes that the following is possibly an abusive situations.

 

"Parents who lock their children up in a room for extended periods of time (I'm not talking about reasonable 'time out')"

 

I've heard and used the guideline of having minutes correspond to age, so a four-year-old has four minutes, etc. We don't do time out exactly, but I send the kids to their room so any one of us can cool off, or just to break the kids out of a winding up kind of energy pattern. I still use nine minutes for the nine-year-old when I do this, seven for the seven-year-old, etc.

 

But a couple of weeks ago I was talking to friends about a mutual friend who was struggling to gain control of her child and was sending him to his room for hours at a time. My jaw dropped and I told them the minute guideline, but then I wondered... how unusual is it to put a kid in their room for hours?

 

So, for those of you who do use isolation or involuntary relocation as a consequence, how long do you feel comfortable leaving a child under age eleven in there?

I said multiple hours, but I'm not talking about complete isolation. We do not have central heat or air, so the doors have to stay open or else the temps in the rooms get uncomfortable. Ds (older) has been grounded to his room for a week, allowed out for school work and bathroom breaks, but that was it.

 

Maybe I misunderstood?

 

I think there's a world of difference between individual kids, situations, ages, iow I'd really have to decide on a case by case basis with my own kids (so I couldn't judge a generality/as a whole). For our youngest, we've moved to a calm down area, normally in my lap, by his choice. Time-outs hurt him deeply and I feel deeply blessed to have found this wonderful alternative to isolation for the child I have who needs an alternative.

[Truscifi]

We typically do the age=minutes thing for ds6, but I have put him in his room for up to 20 minutes when either he was REALLY worked up or I REALLY needed a break. I have also put myself in timeout, lol. :tongue_smilie:

[Saille]

Yikes! I heard a bunch of conflicting stuff on what to do when my child tantrums. When he did for the first time, after all the different advice, I had no idea what to do. lol So... I just sat there in shock (which was basically the same as ignoring him). He went on for 50 minutes, and would even stop to see if I was paying attention. After that long he gave up and barely ever had a tantrum again. I am now a big believer in ignoring them. lol Of course, if a person has not been ignoring them from the start, then it takes a long time to convince a child that they really will be ignored and of course tantrums escalate for awhile. But I'm so glad I fully ignored his first one, even if it was due to shock on my part and not any sort of parenting savvy.

 

LOL, I would say that this is what I did at first...I could not figure out what a two-year-old could actually be enraged about, yk? And he was a super-early talker (100+ words at age 1), so it wasn't that he couldn't talk to me. I started exhibiting stress reaction symptoms I'm familiar with from doing critical incident debriefing when I worked with SED kids, and I realized that my reactions were becoming irrational (crying hard, allowing him to be assaultive and sitting there in a stupor, changing strategies randomly b/c nothing was working). Separation saved us both. It still does. We are both better people when we have the headspace to calm down and examine the problem. There's no question in my mind that it's the right thing for us. I never, ever had this problem with my two younger kids. dd6 only tantrums when she's totally exhausted...and she's a kid who will say, "I'm tired, I think I'll go lie down." ds3.5 just has what I'd consider typical preschooler meltdowns...and he bounces back quickly. I really, really needed another friend with an equally high-intensity kid...and I didn't have one at the time.

[AuntPol]

I put a day. I don't think we've gone a full day but certainly many, many hours.

 

I will admit, I have a temper. I am a trained Marine. I can easily hurt a grown adult. I sensory issues (and screaming children don't go well with sensory issues lol). Time outs are usually for me lol. I have locked myself in my room many days. I don't spank because of my temper. Luckily I have a good friend who I can vent to and so I can usually contain my anger before it explodes.

 

 

I have two kids who are stubborn. My 10 yo began her tantrums when she was eleven months and has had NINE HOUR tantrums. Nine hours of non-stop screaming and it's not isolated. Six hour tantrums are common. She seems to lack the calming down mechanism so she will go until she passes out. It's impossible to try and calm her down because she's throwing everything and anything in her way. (well she's outgrown that now and is more theatrical -slam doors 15 times and then write me a note about how horrid her life is). A 10 minute time out for her would be a joke. We'd have 30 minutes of back talk to get her in a 10 minute time out.

 

My 9 yo has Aspergers. He has major anger management issues and some OCD tendencies. I send him to his room and he will sit in there with NOTHING in the room but his bed for as long as it takes. I don't make him. He will just try to outwill me and won't come out until his dad comes home and makes him.

 

My husband is similar. While he never raises his voice, he is stubborn as a mule. If he and I fight, he will give me the silent treatment until I beg forgiveness and admit to everything being my fault. The only time he's said he was sorry first was the last fight when I called his bluff and told him to go ahead and divorce me and move out and he could even have the kids.

Edited March 4, 2010 by AuntPol

[katilac]

The only time he's said he was sorry first was the last fight when I called his bluff and told him to go ahead and divorce me and move out and he could even have the kids.

 

Yes, threatening to give them custody works every time! :D

[Amy Jo]

Usually, I'm more likely to take them with me wherever I am. If I'm cooking, bring them in the kitchen, pull a chair up by the counter and have them sit with me. Unless, I need to calm down and not see them for a few minutes. :)

 

:iagree: