Why are some of the dictations in WWE3 so long?

[Vrouwtje]

I have just read a post about how some kids (and Moms!) have struggled with some of the long dictation sentences in WWE. We are doing WWE3 right now, and I have been surprised about the length of some of the dictations. I have to admit that I am not overly motivated to have my son remember them, because I don't understand the reason for it. I would love for someone to chime in and tell me what the reason behind it is. I know I have never had to remember such long dictations, and as far as I can tell I am doing fine :001_smile:. We have used WWE1 and WWE@ and have absolutely loved those books.

 

Also, do the levels correspond with grade levels? Some of the words in WWE3 dictations seem a bit much for third grade.

 

Thanks!

[ELaurie]

:lurk5:

[Capt_Uhura]

I've been wanting to ask the same question. I thought being able to hold dictation in your head was a stepping stone to being able to hold your own thoughts in your head and be able to get them down on paper. WWE3 transitions from DC giving his narration, remembering the first sentence and writing that down, to remembering his first two sentences and writing that down. I have to read the passages sometimes 3-4x for my DS9.5 to be able to remember it. But the kid can sit and crank out a whole page of text out of his head no problem. He doesn't seem to have any problem writing his own thoughts down. And you need to hold thoughts in your head while notetaking, but then you're taking notes and not concerned w/ spelling, complete sentences, getting every word down in the exact order as spoken so that's a different animal altogether.

 

Hopefully someone can answer this question for us.

 

Capt_Uhura

[EKS]

I thought being able to hold dictation in your head was a stepping stone to being able to hold your own thoughts in your head and be able to get them down on paper.

 

I think this is the idea. I don't agree with it, because I know that's not how I write, and I'd be willing to bet that it's not how most people write (I mean by having fully formed paragraphs in mind before writing them down) but that is the premise.

[Jenny in GA]

We haven't gotten to WWE 3 yet, but I also am curious what the supposed grade levels are.

 

Jenny

[Heather in WI]

My oldest is on week 31 of WWE III and I haven't found the dictation sentences to be overly long. I think the longest one has been three sentences, although most are only two.

 

In re-reading Writing with Ease, she talks about writing being two distinctive steps.

 

"First, the writer puts an idea into words; then, she puts the words down on paper. ... Mature writers are able to do both steps without paying much attention to the fact that their brains are actually carrying out two different operations. ... Copywork and dictation allow the student to master the second step of the process without having to worry about the first, difficult task of putting ideas into words." Dictation forces "him to bring his memory into play, to picture the sentence in his mind before writing it down."

 

[prim*rose]

My 8 yr old also has trouble with some of the long sentences in WWE 3. She gets frustrated if she can't remember it perfectly, and that seems to defeat the whole purpose.

[razorbackmama]

Caveat: We haven't used the WWE3 workbook since it wasn't out when we started WWE3. So I'm going to speak from the experience of using the WWE2 workbook.

 

I found that the dictation passages in the workbook were much longer and more difficult than what the hardback text recommended. I'm not sure if this is the case with WWE3, but it was with WWE2, and it was VERY frustrating. So much so that I sold my WWE2 workbook and decided just to use our own selections for WWE3 (and not bother to wait for the workbook). Selecting our own passages according to the recommendations given in the text has gone MUCH better, and the selections aren't even as difficult as the ones from the WWE2 workbook!

 

So for US, the problem was the selections chosen in the workbook, not the WWE program itself.

[Capt_Uhura]

My son sometimes substitute words. The word is a synonym but a shorter version of what was said. :D So he might put "job" for "duties" and I'm sure it's b/c he's trying to remember the words and making associations with other words he knows.

 

I don't know, I think it's easier to hold your own thoughts in your head rather than someone else's.

 

The passage in WWE3 week 31 has 59 words in it! Now that one you're supposed to read 3x rather than 2x but I know my son likely won't be able to do that by the time we get there. If he can, I'll fall over dead.

 

 

I love dictation and definitely see it's value. I'm just not sure of only reading it twice. Bravewriter goes sentence by sentence and is more focused on proper punctuation, spelling, good sentence structure rather than short memory. I'll continue the way we have been, trying to get him to hold as much as he can in his head and help him where he needs help.

[lionfamily1999]

We haven't had too many problems with the dictation, but we don't have the workbook. There are times when I have to go over it again, but for the most part ds does well with it. Dictation, imo, helps ds work on his grammar, punctuation and spelling (iow, writing) without having the added task of coming up with what to write. Also, I think it exercises his short-term memory (imo, something that's great to have).

 

I read every sentence three time, "the first time I just want you to listen, the second time, picture the sentence in your head with proper capitalization and punctuation, after the third time repeat the sentence back to me," ala FLL.

 

I see all kinds of useful lessons in dictation (following directions, learning how to quote someone without altering their wording, short term memory work out, grammar and punctuation, etc). I don't think it's something your child will be lost without, but I do find it very useful.

[amsunshine]

I've been wondering about this, too. My eldest is in WWE2 here and does very well with it. No problems with the dictation and she even writes her own narrations from start to finish. However, the dictation in WWE3 and WWE4 looks a lot more difficult because of the increases in length. I'm wondering if the dictation in WWE compares in difficulty to a program such as Classical Writing Homer? Does anyone have any idea?

 

ETA: I also see that dictation is useful for spelling, punctuation, grammar, etc. I'm just not sure it's necessary to hold such long passages in one's head perfectly before writing them down to accomplish that. On the other hand, we love WWE so far here -- and I know it has done wonders for us in terms of writing across the curriculum already.

Edited February 2, 2010 by amsunshine

[Mynyel]

So is it safe to say them you can use WWE without the workbooks?

[MamaSheep]

:bigear:

So is it safe to say them you can use WWE without the workbooks?

[NoPlaceLikeHome]

When I get to WWE 3, I will try to do as directed, but if that does not work then I have no problem letting ds study the passage first and then dictating 1 or 2 sentences at a time if necessary;) I think he will still benefit from it by re-enforcing great sentences and words as well as spelling and grammar;)

 

I also do not see any problem with him doing the passage as copywork on the day before if necessary and then trying dictation the next day:)

[TheCoffeeChick]

So is it safe to say them you can use WWE without the workbooks?

 

 

I only use WWE level 1, but yes. The book is made to be able to use your own readings if you want. OR for convenience you can use the readings Susan put together.

 

I take readings from what we are reading aloud as a family, our science books, our history books, or other book ds has shown interest in. It's easy - I don't even prepare it beforehand - Mondays I go to the bookshelf, pick out a book, open it up to a reading that looks the correct length, and have a go at it. Tops it takes me 5 minutes to find an appropriate reading, most of the time it takes me only a few seconds.

[amsunshine]

When I get to WWE, I will try to do as directed, but if that does not work then I have no problem letting ds study the passage first and then dictating 1 or 2 sentences at a time if necessary;) I think he will still benefit from it by re-enforcing great sentences and words as well as spelling and grammar;)

 

 

This is one of the thoughts I've had as well -- I haven't had to do that so far, but possibly in the future...

[Just Robyn]

My son sometimes substitute words. The word is a synonym but a shorter version of what was said. :D So he might put "job" for "duties" and I'm sure it's b/c he's trying to remember the words and making associations with other words he knows.

 

I don't know, I think it's easier to hold your own thoughts in your head than someone else's.

 

There have been many psycholinguistic experiments on this. The way we process language is basically - we hear words, as soon as we believe we have a subject, verb, and any necessary objects, we figure out what it means, then we remember the meaning and forget the words.

[razorbackmama]

So is it safe to say them you can use WWE without the workbooks?

 

Yes. I have used the workbooks for WWE1 and WWE2, and once we were done with the WWE2 one I sold it. I plan to only use the workbook for WWE1 and then use our own readings for WWE2-WWE4.

 

I agree with the others that it makes more sense to me to focus on holding one's OWN thoughts rather than someone else's. So I do not stress about them memorizing the passage on the spot (since that's essentially what they are being asked to do). I repeat the passage as many times as necessary, if it is one from the readings.

 

However, if it is their own narration that is being used as the dictation, then I am not as lenient. BUT I have found that it hasn't been a problem either. Since the thought was already in their head (in order to give me a narration), they are able to remember the dictation passage easier.

[Vrouwtje]

Thanks for all the good input. I will continue to dictate the sentences, but if it is a real long one I will continue to cut the dictation up a bit. And trust that it won't hurt in the long run. I am just happy to read that I am not the only one who feels the dictations are quite long at times (not always, today's dictation was fine). One of my goals is that my son will learn to love to write. Although I am all for high standards, I also don't want to discourage him.

 

Does anybody know how the levels correspond with grade levels? One of the reasons I am curious is that we started late with WWE and are trying to 'catch up' by doing more than one WWE day per actual school day (and that has worked fine for us). I have always assumed that the levels correspond at least generally with grade levels, but I am really not sure about it!

[lionfamily1999]

In the book at the end of each year there is a "Mastery Evaluation" for that year. The year one evaluation (they all might, but I know year one does for sure) will tell you after each step how many mistakes are too many and how much longer to work at that particular level.

[Mom-ninja.]

So is it safe to say them you can use WWE without the workbooks?

 

Absolutely.

 

I use the workbooks because I'm lazy and don't plan things myself. :tongue_smilie:

 

 

We are at the end of WWE2. This is how we do dictation. I read the sentence, I read it again and he says it along with me, then he says it on his own. Having him say it along with me that second time has helped tremendously.

[razorbackmama]

Forget to mention...it takes me about 5 minutes to select the passages for 3 different students. I haven't found the workbooks to be that much of a time-saver. If anything, NOT using them saves me time since some of the passages are so frustrating LOL!

[amsunshine]

Does anybody know how the levels correspond with grade levels? One of the reasons I am curious is that we started late with WWE and are trying to 'catch up' by doing more than one WWE day per actual school day (and that has worked fine for us). I have always assumed that the levels correspond at least generally with grade levels, but I am really not sure about it!

 

For us, it seems to generally correspond with grade levels, but we started with WWE1 in 1st grade. Also, I think it really depends on the child and his/her prior experience. For example, I wouldn't place a 4th grade child without any prior exposure to narration and dictation into WWE4. Also, every child develops these skills at his/her own pace -- I've seen people using WWE a grade level behind on these boards, or a grade level ahead.