Today I saw what I think is possibly the most offensive bumper sticker I have seen.

[TXMomof4]

I had a wonderful, eloquent amazing reply all typed up and my computer kicked me off....so here's a short version of what I was going to say earlier.

 

My entire problem with bumper stickers like this is that there is no way to target who reads this. If a fellow Christian reads this and agrees with you, great. If someone says they are a Christian and disagrees with you, all that happens is that someone gets angry. If a non-Christian reads it, they think "How ignorant." But most importantly to me is the person who is considering an abortion, or who has had an abortion that reads that and thinks, "There's no place for me in Christianity."

 

Like someone said earlier, a person who has had an abortion isn't automatically ****ed to the hot place. I know people who have had abortions, suffered through the consequences and have gone on to be great Christians. I know a friend who will have nothing to do with Christianity because of the condemnation she felt for something she did when she was 16. Is that what Jesus wanted? She can't see Jesus for the Christians. Things like that defeat every bit of evangelism and light shining in this world with one stupid bumper sticker.

 

I believe abortion is wrong. I believe someone, no matter what they think might be ok for another person, if they truly KNOW God, will realize that the inconvenience of an unwanted child, or the result of someones r*pe, or inc*st, can be overcome without taking the life of an innocent child. A teen girl who is in one of those horrible situations may have a hard time because they think the world revolves around them, but, hold on a minute....It doesn't. Perception is NOT reality. The reality is that the abortion would more than likely add to the problems already caused by the circumstances they are in. The people I know who have had abortions are still, more than a decade later, dealing with unbelievable guilt and sorrow over their choices. Even those who aren't Christians.

 

But if they have an abortion for any reason, it doesn't mean they can never experience salvation. The person who tells them they can't is in just as scary a place, IMHO!

 

So, no, I would never have a bumper sticker like that on my car.

 

However, I did see one last night that I would LOVE to find....

 

 

WWBD

 

What would Bubba Do?? :lol: (It's a southern thang!!!!)

[Sharon in SC]

Yes, that is nicely stated.

 

Laura, I gave her some rep. :)

 

As did I.

[mcconnellboys]

NO! It's not about being right and wrong at all! I don't want to say that "you are wrong". I don't even want to say that a person who has such a bumper sticker is "wrong". I just want to say that I think there's so much more that we need to consider. Life cannot be boiled down into such little quips as that - and only that.

 

I just want to say that I believe that God has told us many, many times, in a myriad of ways that we hold within our very grasp the keys to the Kingdom of Heaven and that we can even experience Heaven on earth if we will only turn the key and open the door. I happen to think that the key is LOVE. And if we can only learn how to wield it properly, the world can be different than it is today, even before the second coming of the Kingdom here on earth.

 

I think that there are living saints who learn how to wield the key and life for all those touched by them is different because of it. Many of these we never even learn about as a public. I think that we have examples of those who live their lives for God who do become well known, such as a Mother Teresa, who do champion the perfection of LOVE (agape love -real, true, pure love - not our regular sorts of earthly love) and make a difference for the world to see, if only it can learn HOW to see. And I believe that entire governments *can* practice LOVE - it's NOT totally impractical, as it would seem.

 

We're currently reading about the resolution courts set up in South Africa, after Apartheid ended. I can't believe I didn't know about this! Can you imagine what would have happened if courts had been set up like this at the end of WWI? Everyone come in and admit your liability/culpability, insofar as you will (and if you won't/can't, that's okay, too) and we'll forgive you. WE'LL FORGIVE YOU. Period. The end. It's over. You ask for forgiveness and it's given - and your sin is put as far away as East is from West. Do you see the import of that????? How powerful is that????? That is LOVE. REAL LOVE. We just can't do that as humans, generally, can we? We always want justice, instead (me, too - that's me).......

 

How do we learn to act and react to everyone, everyday, every place with LOVE instead of our more typical righteous indignation? If we could only do that, there would be no need for such bumper stickers..... That's what I was trying to say last night.....

 

Regena

[pixelroper]

Wonder where the world would be if William Wilberforce felt like you and many other pro-life folks do. One of the tenants of the Christian faith in my view is to change society. Wilberforce took his entire life to change English society in a peaceful manner for the good against overwhelming odds. He cared that the immoral was legal and did something about it.:blink:

 

I respect your view but I think it is a wrong one and I think future generations will see it as a wrong one.

 

I do agree that the foundational issues must also be address :iagree: However as with slavery when folks make their living off of immoral activity fixing foundational issues will not be enough.:001_huh:

 

 

the slavery comparison is an excellent point to bring up- many Christians owned slaves and believed it was wrong, but, they felt it would be worse for the slaves to give them their freedom, dangerous even- in fact some plantations lost money by taking such good care of their slaves, no profit at all- a huge bloody war was fought over this- I see it as an example of what has been going on in this post; where a Christian might stand in relation to their societies legal position on an issue vs. personal choices. I'm not saying abortion and slavery are the same thing, just the conflict of views swirling around them.

[mcconnellboys]

Well, I'd undo that, but I'm evidently currently banned from giving you rep, LOL.... I happen to think you have been the catalyst for a wonderful Easter conversation. THANKS!

 

Regena

[mcconnellboys]

Yes, I didn't mean that there are no guidelines for Christians, sorry it came out that way. I just meant that there's not a hard and fast list of "do all these" and you're Christian, but if you omit any or do anything from this other list, then you're not and have no hope of ever being......

 

Regena

[nancypants]

 

God has very simply told us "Thou shalt not kill". He does not qualify it in any way (does He?)

 

I'm doing my best to stay out of this argument and just peruse it... but I must disagree here from a scriptural standpoint. Exodus 20:13 reads, "You shall not murder," in almost every translation.

 

In other scriptures we can see that God believes in justice for murderers:

 

Gen. 9

" 5 And for your lifeblood I will surely demand an accounting. I will demand an accounting from every animal. And from each man, too, I will demand an accounting for the life of his fellow man.

 

6 "Whoever sheds the blood of man,

by man shall his blood be shed;

for in the image of God

has God made man. "

 

 

Eccles. 3

" 3 a time to kill and a time to heal,

a time to tear down and a time to build,"

 

"8 a time to love and a time to hate,

a time for war and a time for peace."

 

That God hates it when the innocent are punished and the guilty let off the hook.

and Proverbs

" 15 Acquitting the guilty and condemning the innocent—

the LORD detests them both."

 

And that he imbues us with life and "an inmost being" while we are in yet in the secret place,

 

Psalm 139:13 "For you created my inmost being;

you knit me together in my mother's womb."

 

Through other passages we can quite easily gather that our "inmost being" is our spirit,

 

"27 The lamp of the LORD searches the spirit of a man [a] ;

it searches out his inmost being." "16 my inmost being will rejoice

when your lips speak what is right." " 1 Praise the LORD, O my soul;

all my inmost being, praise his holy name."

 

 

So #1 God places a spiritual value upon unborn babies, #2 He approves of justice for murderers and #3 that "all killing is not created equal" and that sometimes it is not only prohibited but actually called for.

 

I am using as little of my own words as possible here.

 

Respectfully submitted,

[nancypants]

I had a wonderful, eloquent amazing reply all typed up and my computer kicked me off....so here's a short version of what I was going to say earlier.

 

My entire problem with bumper stickers like this is that there is no way to target who reads this. If a fellow Christian reads this and agrees with you, great. If someone says they are a Christian and disagrees with you, all that happens is that someone gets angry. If a non-Christian reads it, they think "How ignorant." But most importantly to me is the person who is considering an abortion, or who has had an abortion that reads that and thinks, "There's no place for me in Christianity."

 

Like someone said earlier, a person who has had an abortion isn't automatically ****ed to the hot place. I know people who have had abortions, suffered through the consequences and have gone on to be great Christians. I know a friend who will have nothing to do with Christianity because of the condemnation she felt for something she did when she was 16. Is that what Jesus wanted? She can't see Jesus for the Christians. Things like that defeat every bit of evangelism and light shining in this world with one stupid bumper sticker.

 

I believe abortion is wrong. I believe someone, no matter what they think might be ok for another person, if they truly KNOW God, will realize that the inconvenience of an unwanted child, or the result of someones r*pe, or inc*st, can be overcome without taking the life of an innocent child. A teen girl who is in one of those horrible situations may have a hard time because they think the world revolves around them, but, hold on a minute....It doesn't. Perception is NOT reality. The reality is that the abortion would more than likely add to the problems already caused by the circumstances they are in. The people I know who have had abortions are still, more than a decade later, dealing with unbelievable guilt and sorrow over their choices. Even those who aren't Christians.

 

But if they have an abortion for any reason, it doesn't mean they can never experience salvation. The person who tells them they can't is in just as scary a place, IMHO!

 

So, no, I would never have a bumper sticker like that on my car.

 

However, I did see one last night that I would LOVE to find....

 

 

WWBD

 

What would Bubba Do?? :lol: (It's a southern thang!!!!)

 

I love what you have said here.

[Peek a Boo]

I'm doing my best to stay out of this argument and just peruse it... but I must disagree here from a scriptural standpoint.

***

So #1 God places a spiritual value upon unborn babies, #2 He approves of justice for murderers and #3 that "all killing is not created equal" and that sometimes it is not only prohibited but actually called for.

 

I am using as little of my own words as possible here.

 

actually, nan, I believe scripture reveals a lot more than that :-)

 

but I already discussed it here:

 

http://www.welltrainedmind.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8073

[debbiec]

I think the owner thought that true faith is defined by the issue ~ therefore, yes, directing it to nominal Christians (in the owner's view)?

[Antonia]

She can't see Jesus for the Christians.

 

This is an excellent post (and I am pro-choice). I love the above quote!

[jail warden]

We've had quite the busy day, so I'm only finally getting back to you!

So do you believe scripture speaks to the killing of innocent life or not? Does the Bible not clearly define how to deal w/ killing another human for convenience sake?

 

I can't recall exactly what it says, but yes it does speak against killing innocent life and God especially had a heart for the little children who are innocent as mentioned in my previous post.

 

?

If the sentiment is true, how would you reword it??

 

If the sentiment is true, how does that make it a sledgehammer and not light?

 

Why do you think it was poor taste if it was a true sentiment?

 

Do you think a bumper sticker would be what makes one lose their faith? How do you reckon a true statement w/ being what turns one against the faith?

 

What if the sticker drew someone TO Christ? would you then reconsider it's effectiveness? Is there a priority for reaching someone new w/ truth vs risking losing one w/ truth?

 

I don't know exactly how to reword this phrase because it's a bit negative where it starts. I like to phrase things in positives, such as "Life is a Miracle". I personally think the negative wording makes it a sledgehammer.

 

In respect to it being a sledgehammer or being light, I know that when I am told that something I'm doing it wrong, the tone and countenance of the person make a world of a difference. If they come to me in a loving tone that tells me they want what's best for ME and not their aggenda filled, then I'm reseptive to what they have to say.

 

In my own life, how I come across is a HUGE problem for me. God has only been showing me in the last two years, through many hardships of my own, that no one is perfect and I need to give grace to others and myself. I am not saying there are never times for tough love, but I believe God will direct me in those because they would be major issues, to those closest to me. Most other people have no clue and just need to see how and what someone else believes and why.

 

I want to be the one that people see and long to have a closer relationship with God because of what joy He can bring in our lives. In the process they will begin to see why I believe what I do and I can challenge their thinking then. I'm so far from being this person because I do have a harsh tongue more times than not, but it's my goal!

[jail warden]

Okay I obviously can't do more than one quote in a box! Not sure what I did wrong! :willy_nilly:Alright I get to use this little buy finally!:lol:

[...................]

I am just popping in to say I am impressed with the respect and clarity with which you have expressed yourselves.

 

And:

 

Peek a Boo is some kind of clone of mine. Everything she said I echo 100%.

 

And- my husband and I have had long discussions that abortion is like the new slavery. But worse, of course, since the baby's death is involved. What we need now is a William Wilberforce for abortion.

 

And lastly, though I am a Christian, and though I believe Christians can't be pro-abortion or pro-choice, I still wouldn't put that sticker on my car, but I would not necessarily disrespect or be upset at someone else sticking it on their car. Mostly, I just don't get why someone tries to sum up a major belief on a sticker.

 

Okay. :auto:

[Peek a Boo]

I don't know exactly how to reword this phrase because it's a bit negative where it starts. I like to phrase things in positives, such as "Life is a Miracle". I personally think the negative wording makes it a sledgehammer.

 

I've been thinking about this part all day, lol.

 

It occurred to me that my initial problem was that I see it as Christians *shouldn't* be pro-abortion.

 

We are to be imitators of Christ.

We are to model Christ.

Scriptures show Christ and God as most definitely pro-life.

 

especially when it comes to how we -as christians, in this day and age- are to view the purposeful taking of a human life for convenience sake.

 

So I would simply reword the bumper sticker as--

God is Pro Life.

or

Christ is Pro life.

 

the reason that the original sticker becomes an untrue --and thus offensive-- statement is that Christians are NOT God. While we are certainly called to model Him, we are also fallen sinners.

 

Do we continue in sin so that grace may abound?

of course not.

 

So since christians can sin and still be Christians [that's, uh, kinda the whole point, lol], that negates the sentiment on the sticker :)

[nancypants]

deleted because I may have misunderstood you Peek... too tired to read that whole overworked old thread to check though so I'm just deleting and going to bed! LOL

[Peek a Boo]

darn! i missed it before you deleted it!

 

that's ok nan :-)

I promise I won't bite you too hard when we start questioning and examining each other ;)

 

But I'll bet you didn't misunderstand me-- we just think differently on the issue, hee hee. we could go back to discussing oinos, lol!

 

or maybe just drinking it.....

[3littlekeets]

To the person who pointed out the difference b/w political and moral or religious views, thank you!

 

Morally, I am very anti-abortion.

 

Politically, I am pro-choice.

 

My DD, now 6, has a diagnosis of Trisomy 21 (Down syndrome). Many of the very people who argue "pro-life" are quick to terminate a child with a prenatally diagnosed disability. Just read "termination due to prenatal diagnosis" boards. People "give their child back to God," and "spare" the child from a life of teasing. BLECH!!! They are sparing themselves from a little extra parenting, imho.

 

My DD is in Kindy, we afterschool not homeschool. She knows her prayers in Latin, nontheless :-).

 

But, I am prochoice. In California they have been trying to pass "mandatory" prenatal testing for years now. Why? To help determine disabilities for all in utero. Ultimately, I believe if we grant the govt control over who cannot terminate, the will gain power to determine who MUST terminate, as well. And, if you look at the trends in the AMA prenatal testing "recommendations" and in insurance trends, you'll see I'm not just nutty.

 

So, I abhor termination for any reason -- the most for a child who isn't "good enough." My DD is more than I could have ever dreamed ;-). But, I'm also prochoice -- the choice to not test and to not terminate.

 

Peace!

http:http://www.missmagic.blogspot.com

[Peek a Boo]

Ultimately, I believe if we grant the govt control over who cannot terminate, they will gain power to determine who MUST terminate, as well. And, if you look at the trends in the AMA prenatal testing "recommendations" and in insurance trends, you'll see I'm not just nutty.

 

Hm. I hadn't really thought of that.

but my ultimate line of reasoning is that it's a one way street: Life, all the way. They recommend it now because it's legal. And popular.

 

I don't think they should have the power to determine who must terminate anymore than they have the power to decide who CAN be slaves. We haven't really had a problem w/ gvt outlawing slavery but then putting SOME people into slavery. So historically, i don't think that moving in direction A [outlawing abortion] will mean that direction B [mandating abortions] will happen too.

[Peek a Boo]

Anyway, why do we keep refering to abortion and slavery in the same sentences? Those two are not of the same ilk?

 

Because they both deny another human the right to live freely.

And they were both upheld as "legal" by the Supreme Court.

 

from the secular side, i view abortion as a basic human rights issue.

 

edited to clarify:

 

 

Because they both deny another human the right to live freely strictly for another's convenience.

[Melinda in VT]

To the person who pointed out the difference b/w political and moral or religious views, thank you!

 

Morally, I am very anti-abortion.

 

Politically, I am pro-choice.

 

My DD, now 6, has a diagnosis of Trisomy 21 (Down syndrome). Many of the very people who argue "pro-life" are quick to terminate a child with a prenatally diagnosed disability. Just read "termination due to prenatal diagnosis" boards. People "give their child back to God," and "spare" the child from a life of teasing. BLECH!!! They are sparing themselves from a little extra parenting, imho.

 

My DD is in Kindy, we afterschool not homeschool. She knows her prayers in Latin, nontheless :-).

 

But, I am prochoice. In California they have been trying to pass "mandatory" prenatal testing for years now. Why? To help determine disabilities for all in utero. Ultimately, I believe if we grant the govt control over who cannot terminate, the will gain power to determine who MUST terminate, as well. And, if you look at the trends in the AMA prenatal testing "recommendations" and in insurance trends, you'll see I'm not just nutty.

 

So, I abhor termination for any reason -- the most for a child who isn't "good enough." My DD is more than I could have ever dreamed ;-). But, I'm also prochoice -- the choice to not test and to not terminate.

 

Peace!

http:http://www.missmagic.blogspot.com

 

I've spent some time on those boards as well. And I have certainly read some posts that caused me to cringe or angered me. But I have read other posts that made me cry with sorrow for parents who found themselves in a horrible, horrible situation and who were trying to do what is best for their child.

 

Is it really more kind to allow a child whose organs are growing outside his body to develop as long as possible before he dies? Wouldn't the child actually suffer less if he were aborted at an earlier stage of development? If you are carrying a child with a fatal diagnosis, is allowing the pregnancy to continue and watching the child die shortly after birth the only morally acceptable choice? Or might the correct choice vary from family to family?

 

I don't know the answers to those questions. Further tests showed that the fatal diagnosis we feared was not true in our case. But the time we spent walking in that shadow has given me a new sympathy for those whose fears were confirmed by the medical tests. And I know that had that been our road to walk, I would have wanted the decision to be made by my husband and I, seeking to know God's will for us, and not by the government.

[RebeccaC]

But, I am prochoice. In California they have been trying to pass "mandatory" prenatal testing for years now. Why? To help determine disabilities for all in utero. Ultimately, I believe if we grant the govt control over who cannot terminate, the will gain power to determine who MUST terminate, as well. And, if you look at the trends in the AMA prenatal testing "recommendations" and in insurance trends, you'll see I'm not just nutty.

 

http:http://www.missmagic.blogspot.com

 

 

This will be a moot point if the ballot in Co is pass calssifying the unborn as a person at conception. If that happens every unborn child will have the protection of the US Constitution and the right to life, liberty....... and specifically the [14th] Amendment. Which requires the states to provide equal protection under the law to all persons, not only to citizens, within their jurisdictions. Which brings us back to the parallel with slavery because the 14th Amendment was put in place to protect and secure the rights former slaves. It is not about who cannot terminate but about the rights of those being terminated. Give the unborn the status of person hood and they cannot be executed because of a disability any more than your dd or my niece with autism or my sons with LKS can be executed now outside of the uterus.

[mcconnellboys]

Oh, I hope we are not arguing - I didn't think we were! I know there are a lot of side threads to this that I haven't read, but I thought we were just talking about our differing perceptions of the message on this bumper sticker and why we feel as we do.

 

I think I said in the message that you're referring to that I was going to use the words 'kill' and 'murder' interchangably. I wasn't trying to make a distinction between those two words, as I see them used interchangably throughout the Bible.

 

I understand that God believes in justice for murderers. I believe He provided a very thorough plan for His people in Numbers chapter 35 regarding how they were to handle purposeful vs. accidental commission of murder. However, in doing so, it does seem to me that He recognized all those things as murder, whether intentional or not. Which is the point I was trying to make in one of my posts (don't recall if that would have been the one you read this statement from).

 

And I don't think I made any statements at all about whether or not unborn babies would be considered people too. I absolutely believe that they are people too. I applauded that Pres. Bush refused to allow human embryo research (and you see how fast scientists were able to come up with a solution to that problem when confronted with a flat-out refusal, too, in spite of all their complaints about how it would set them back). I was trying to make the point that all other forms of murder, whether intentional or not, are also just as heinous as abortion. They are still murder. Murder is murder. Sin is sin. So I didn't see why a bumper sticker should single out and focus on only one form of murder.

 

Many innocents die each day worldwide due to starvation and warfare. If we have contributed to the chaos where they live, or have refused to provide aid where we can, then I'm not sure that we can turn our heads and pretend that we're not all guilty of murder of innocents. I'm not sure that the Bible singles out unborn babies and asks us to specially protect them over and above all other innocents in the world.

 

So I absolutely agree with you that God places value on every single soul in the Universe, no matter what earthly state it might be in at the time, but I guess I would disagree that any one soul merits more love or consideration from Him than any other, as I believe He loves us all equally.

 

I absolutely agree that God approves of justice for murder and we see some of His provisions for that in the Bible, but I disagree that we humans are capable of arbitrarily deciding what that justice will be and how it will be meted out without God's direct guidance. And I certainly don't think that a quip on a bumper sticker could be considered meting out of appropriate justice, for all the reasons several of us espoused yesterday, such as driving away potential future Christians, who might then think there is no hope for them, etc.

 

And yes, I know that God does call for killing throughout the Bible for various reasons. I can only say that I am not capable of understanding His ways (as He tells me I am not), and that I would find this acceptable only if He were absolutely definitely directing us in it. I don't think that He's intervening in our judicial process to insure that only the guilty are punished and/or that punishments are fair and equal. For instance, I don't think the current state of our law regarding pedophiles is stringent enough at all.

 

So I can agree that not all murder is completely equal (as in purposeful vs. accidental; not one innocent over another), and I can agree that it's not always prohibited but sometimes even called for, but that would be God's call, alone, not ours.

 

Regena

[Lorna in the boonies]

If you are carrying a child with a fatal diagnosis, is allowing the pregnancy to continue and watching the child die shortly after birth the only morally acceptable choice? Or might the correct choice vary from family to family?

 

My child had a fatal diagnosis (anencephaly) and I was encouraged (very, very strongly encouraged) to abort.

 

We carried our daughter to term, and it was the wisest move we have ever made.

 

While I don't condemn others who choose differently, I feel like I would have cheated myself out of the one experience which has probably taught me more about mothering than the 15 years I've spent mothering my healthy children.

 

My daughter lived and died peacefully. We met her, we held her, we spent her entire life loving her, and she died in her father's arms while he sang "Jesus Loves Me" to her.

 

Do I think it was the only morally acceptable choice? In the case of anencephaly, no. I think I could have chosen to abort and it wouldn't have been "wrong" of me to do so (and I say this only because I researched anencephaly extensively at the time -- I do not necessarily feel this way about any other birth defect).

 

Except for this one point: how could we abort her and then tell our children that we serve a miracle-working, healing God? How could we look at them with a straight face and tell them that, when we had robbed Him of that opportunity with our daughter?

 

It was not an easily-reached decision. Nobody knows exactly how they will react until they are in that situation.

 

You can't get much more pro-life than my dh and I are. I agree with just about everything Peek a Boo has had to say. It was still a hard call.

 

I'm glad we chose to carry her to term. It was an amazingly beautiful, yet amazingly painful, experience. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy, but I also wouldn't trade the world for it, either. I would do it again if I had to, and the second time around, I wouldn't even have to think about it.

 

But the first time, it wasn't an easy decision.

[Melinda in VT]

My child had a fatal diagnosis (anencephaly) and I was encouraged (very, very strongly encouraged) to abort.

 

We carried our daughter to term, and it was the wisest move we have ever made.

 

While I don't condemn others who choose differently, I feel like I would have cheated myself out of the one experience which has probably taught me more about mothering than the 15 years I've spent mothering my healthy children.

 

My daughter lived and died peacefully. We met her, we held her, we spent her entire life loving her, and she died in her father's arms while he sang "Jesus Loves Me" to her.

 

Do I think it was the only morally acceptable choice? In the case of anencephaly, no. I think I could have chosen to abort and it wouldn't have been "wrong" of me to do so (and I say this only because I researched anencephaly extensively at the time -- I do not necessarily feel this way about any other birth defect).

 

Except for this one point: how could we abort her and then tell our children that we serve a miracle-working, healing God? How could we look at them with a straight face and tell them that, when we had robbed Him of that opportunity with our daughter?

 

It was not an easily-reached decision. Nobody knows exactly how they will react until they are in that situation.

 

My husband is an Assemblies of God pastor. You can't get much more pro-life than we are. I agree with just about everything Peek a Boo has had to say.

 

I'm glad we chose to carry her to term. It was an amazingly beautiful, yet amazingly painful, experience. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy, but I also wouldn't trade the world it, either. I would do it again if I had to, and the second time around, I wouldn't even have to think about it.

 

But the first time, it wasn't an easy decision.

 

Lorna, thank you for sharing your experience with your daughter. I don't think it came through in my original post, but I would never criticize anyone who chose to carry a child with a fatal diagnosis to term. And I understand what you mean about leaving time for God to work a miracle.

 

Blessings to you and yours.

[RebeccaC]

Is it really more kind to allow a child whose organs are growing outside his body to develop as long as possible before he dies? Wouldn't the child actually suffer less if he were aborted at an earlier stage of development?

 

Respectfully the problem with this line of reasoning in my opinion is proving that the child suffers less when put to death quickly than it does in a slow progression. Typically abortion is through methods that cause a lot of pain in the living so why would they not cause pain to the unborn. Especially in light of ultrasounds and other imagining methods that show babies at very early stages in the womb recoiling, as those not in the womb do, to pain.

 

If you are carrying a child with a fatal diagnosis, is allowing the pregnancy to continue and watching the child die shortly after birth the only morally acceptable choice?

 

So is it the child's pain being relieved or the pain of the parents? What of the born child with cancer do we have the right to put that child out of his or her pain sooner rather than let it drag on? They would after all suffer less if we just put them to sleep. It would be easier on the whole family in many ways would it not. If you follow the logic out to what you are suggesting this is where it most likely goes in my opinion.

 

Death is hard whether it is quick of slow. Disabilities are hard to process whether seen or unseen. It is just my opinion but this logic is more about relieving the pain of the those not about to die than it is about relieving the pain of those dying. Do we have the right to say to the dying that you can not have x amount of time because it hurts us too much to watch you live out the x amount of time? The only difference in my view of the child in the womb and the child out is one is seen and the other is not.

 

Just for the record I have children who have LKSv which left untreated can present as autism. I know the pain of watching a child suffer who can not speak or communicate and who feels immense pain due to processing sensory input. All of the above is my opinion and my view of where the logic posted may take us.

[Melinda in VT]

Respectfully the problem with this line of reasoning in my opinion is proving that the child suffers less when put to death quickly than it does in a slow progression. Typically abortion is through methods that cause a lot of pain in the living so why would they not cause pain to the unborn. Especially in light of ultrasounds and other imagining methods that show babies at very early stages in the womb recoiling, as those not in the womb do, to pain.

 

I agree there are problems. I have done some reading about fetuses' perception of pain, and I know there are some disagreements and controversies. I wish there were a more humane way to abort fetuses for medical reasons, but then that might encourage more abortions for frivolous reasons, and I don't want that.

 

So is it the child's pain being relieved or the pain of the parents? What of the born child with cancer do we have the right to put that child out of his or her pain sooner rather than let it drag on? They would after all suffer less if we just put them to sleep. It would be easier on the whole family in many ways would it not. If you follow the logic out to what you are suggesting this is where it most likely goes.

 

Yes, I understand the larger issues. On the one hand, I am not necessarily against euthanasia if it is the will of the patient. On the other hand, I cringe at the idea of people being pressured into it.

 

Death is hard whether it is quick of slow. Disabilities are hard to process whether seen or unseen. It is just my opinion but this logic is more about relieving the pain of the those not about to die than it is about relieving the pain of those dying. Do we have the right to say to the dying that you can not have x amount of time because it hurts us too much to watch you live out the x amount of time? The only difference in my view of the child in the womb and the child out is one is seen and the other is not.

 

Just for the record I have children who have LKSv which left untreated can present as autism. I know the pain of watching a child suffer who can not speak or communicate and who feels immense pain due to processing sensory input. All of the above is my opinion and my view of where such logic takes us.

 

Again, good points, and indicative of why I feel conflicted.

 

I am sorry for the pain you and your children have suffered.

[RebeccaC]

Again, good points, and indicative of why I feel conflicted.

 

 

 

:iagree: I too feel conflict about this when it come to a child that might not be viable. It has to be very very hard and that is probably an understatement.

 

We were blessed in that our son responded to medical treatment and he has no memory of the pain he felt. Watching children suffer is hard no matter where they are and my heart does go out to those who have to make hard choices I just don't think we know enough to justify all the choices we make. One choice the docs gave us for our son was to sign him over to the state and I was told by a doc that it would be good to forget I had ever had him. What the docs who told us to get rid of our son did not know was that there was a new medical treatment that would cure him. I know that some birth defects can not be cured at this time but we just do not know enough about what a preborn child feels or does not feel to make a choice about ending suffering in my opinion.

[nancypants]

Oh, I hope we are not arguing - I didn't think we were!

 

Sorry if I miscommunicated my meaning. I don't use "argument" as a negative connotation. I grew up in a house that sometimes argued for leisure so I didn't mean it in a bad way! :D Just meant that I wasn't going to enter the actual bumper sticker debate/conversation/argument/what have you. :tongue_smilie:

[mcconnellboys]

Oh, good! My family still argues regularly, LOL, but most others don't call debate or good conversation "argument" anymore, so I'm never quite sure......

 

Regena

[Lorna in the boonies]

Lorna, thank you for sharing your experience with your daughter. I don't think it came through in my original post, but I would never criticize anyone who chose to carry a child with a fatal diagnosis to term. And I understand what you mean about leaving time for God to work a miracle.

 

Blessings to you and yours.

 

 

Oh, Melinda, I didn't take it as a criticism! I apologize if it came across that way! I was just on my way out the door, so I was kind of in a hurry as I was writing it -- in addition to my usual "can't think straight, much less type straight, with 57 people yammering at me all at once, so will you people please be quiet for 10 seconds?' state of being. But I knew I was going to have to be gone for most of the day, and I knew I wanted to go ahead and respond to that. I just didn't have the time to read through it like I normally like to do in order to make sure that what it sounds like I'm saying, is really what I mean to be saying. (That doesn't make much sense, but I know what I mean!)

 

In any case, I didn't take it as a criticism. I was just trying to show that, even as a very pro-life person, there was a lot of considering to be done once I was in that position myself. It's not as cut and dry as someone might think it's going to be until one ends up there. That was the point I was attempting to make.:001_smile:

[Peek a Boo]

I was just trying to show that, even as a very pro-life person, there was a lot of considering to be done once I was in that position myself. It's not as cut and dry as someone might think it's going to be until one ends up there. That was the point I was attempting to make.:001_smile:

 

I do agree that the feelings involved are never as cut n dried as we'd like for them to be, but the difference between life and death IS clear.

Once a child is aborted there's no going back.

There are no "what if's".

There are no second chances.

Any choices after that have been removed forever.

 

That's why I am still very pro-life, NOT dependent on how one feels.

 

i don't believe one's right to exist should be dependent on the emotional decisions of another.

[RebeccaC]

I do agree that the feelings involved are never as cut n dried as we'd like for them to be, but the difference between life and death IS clear.

Once a child is aborted there's no going back.

There are no "what if's".

There are no second chances.

Any choices after that have been removed forever.

 

That's why I am still very pro-life, NOT dependent on how one feels.

 

i don't believe one's right to exist should be dependent on the emotional decisions of another.

 

 

I agree with you on this Peek.

 

 

I am just adding this because sometimes I struggle with the blood that may or may not be on my hands from the Gulf War. I can not imagine the guilt that would surface, no matter how justified, when making the decision to kill ones own baby. My heart breaks for the women who were sold the idea that abortion is a quick fix for r*pe, inc*st, non viable and disabled babies. Not only do they have the r*pe, inc*st,....... to grieve and work through but added on to that is the grief and guilt of knowing that they killed their baby and the what ifs that will follow them all their lives. Abortion does not make problems go away it just adds another layer of something that needs to worked through and causes suffering for both mom and baby. I believe that there is nothing that God will not forgive and my heart goes out to all the folks who have been hurt by abortion.

[hana]

Yipes---I'm not even going there about the issues at hand. But, I do think it seems pretty un-Christian to proclaim who else can be a Christian.

[Donna T.]

Well, I have read all the previous posts and thought long and hard about this. First of all, I would not put a bumper sticker like that on my car. Just not my style. Do I find it offensive? No. I try super hard not to go around getting offended.

 

I only want to comment on the who is a Christian question. A Christian is someone who is being conformed into the image of Christ. We are being conformed. We aren't zapped into conformity. We are born again at a point in time. We are dead in our sins (because we have all inherited Adam's sinful nature) but when we receive the Lord Jesus Christ (that simply means accepting that He is God of very God, the son of the Father, the sacrificial Lamb that was slain to pay atonement for our sin, the fulfillment of the Law and all Prophecy), we are born again. We were dead. Then, we are alive. The old man, Adam, is dead. Our new selves are alive in Christ because His Life is given to us. A free gift. But, we are not fully conformed at that point. We have to willingly be conformed as we submit to His Holy Will and His Holy Word. Salvation is an act of God. Conformity is a matter of continued obedience to His Spirit through His Word.

 

So, do I believe a Christian can believe (passionately) in the rightness of the freedom to choose an abortion? Yes. Absolutely. A Christian can even HAVE an abortion themselves. But, as that Christian continues to submit to Her Savior and continues to allow Him (you have to allow Him) to effect her mind and her emotions, all of her, He will conform her into His image. And, certainly, He loves Life. He came that we might have Life. He did not come to bring death or a love of death or even a respect of death. He came to give us New Life. His Word forbids murder and He tells us that He is active in our lives even while we are in our mother's wombs. Jeremiah and Paul both testify to this fact. And, He loves little children. That is so clear in Scripture. It is not even something I will debate.

 

Romans 8:28 - For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 

(Please note here that I am not preaching Calvinism. The predestination here mentioned is not to salvation but to conformity).

 

Conformity is a sure thing! It is His promise to us. He will comform a Christian to His image.

 

Romans 12:1-2 - I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

 

There are going to be divisions among us. Not because this is God's perfect will for us, but because we are all at different places on our path to conformity. But, we can know His perfect will and we will know it more completely as we allow Him to renew our mind.

 

There are issues that I once thought very passionately about that I now think the total opposite about! I was a Christian then. I am a Christian now. I am learning and growing and being conformed. It saddens me that not everyone will bow the knee to Jesus willingly. If you do not willingly bow your knee to Him, you will die. I am sorry if that is divisive talk. It is divisive, but it comes forth because of genuine, deep love. In the end, anyone who does not bow the knee to him will perish. It won't matter what you believe about abortion. Your thoughts about abortion won't matter at all. What matters is if you are willingly to bow your knee to Christ and to allow Him to comform you to His image - and, that will involve Him changing your opinions about things.

 

OK - I know many of you will cry "foul". I've gone too far. I've been divisive. I'm sorry, this is Biblical Christianity. This is stating the truth of God's Word - your opinions do not matter. But, are you being conformed? Are you willing to allow Him to change your opinions?

 

That is what determines whether or not a person is a Christian. It's foolish to look at us and let that determine for you what Christ is like, because we are all in process.

 

Deuteronomy 30:15 - "See, I have set before them this day life and good, and death and evil".

 

Deuteronomy 30: 19 - "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live".

[j.griff]

Wow, I have way more "issues" than I previously thought. I am a total non-conformist, LOL. ;)

[Donna T.]

Wow, I have way more "issues" than I previously thought. I am a total non-conformist, LOL. ;)

 

 

:lol: That is very funny! Believe it or not, I am a non-conformist, too. Actually, I often feel like God has brought me into His Kingdom while I'm all the while.................

 

:banghead:

 

banging my head against a wall!

 

It doesn't come naturally to anyone. None of us naturally want to die to ourselves; which is what He requires of us. We die so He can live through us. We crucify our flesh. But, that doesn't mean it's easy. And, to make matters even harder, other Christians expect us to be conformed to THEIR image! That is totally unBiblical.

[j.griff]

yeh, it's hard. I just try to love everyone, pretend everyone is Jesus, and think about how I'd treat him. Key word is try, LOL. And what's amazing to me, is that Christians are my least favorite group of people :( Lots of them seem to think it's their job to sculpt me into a Jesus statue.

[Janet in WA]

 

I just try to love everyone, pretend everyone is Jesus, and think about how I'd treat him.

EXACTLY! And at one point, Jesus' mother was an unmarried teenaged girl who found herself pregnant in a culture where that was actually punishable by stoning. I wish that every pregnant woman considering an abortion would pretend that her baby is Jesus and think about how she'd treat him.

[StaceyinLA]

the last few days, but I have to throw my 2 cents in anytime abortion is in the topic.

 

I have to say that I do not agree with the statement on the sticker, because NO one has the right to judge who is or isn't a Christian.

 

HOWEVER, I don't really see how Christianity and being pro-choice can line up either. Abortion stops a beating heart - PERIOD! I just don't see that as being in line with a true Christian's beliefs. However, I don't feel I can judge their Christianity based on any one thing, no matter how gruesome I find it to be.

 

As far as being pro-life, I guess I can't call myself that based on someone's post I read above.

 

I am ANTI-abortion, 100%, without any doubt. I am pro-death penalty and I am supportive of wars when necessary. I abhor the killing of innocent people, but I do NOT remotely equate the death penalty with the killing of innocent people and I believe it is a just punishment for certain crimes. To me, there is no comparison in this and abortion.

 

I believe that a baby is entitled to a safe, loving environment in which to grow to be prepared for this world. I do NOT believe that the womb should become a battle ground where innocent lives are lost through the most brutal of tortures. I do NOT support a woman's right to CHOOSE to kill her unborn baby anymore than I support her having a CHOICE to murder her 2 week old.

 

The brutal truth of abortion and the disregard for human life has, IMO, contributed to the total disregard of life we see daily in our society. It is sickening to me and it is THE #1 reason I will support a political candidate. If they will not stand up for the most innocent of all humans in what should be the safest place of all, they are useless to me as a leader.

[Donna T.]

I want to share one more thing. Didn't intend to revisit this but it seems the Lord Jesus Christ wanted to show me something today. I work at a shelter. Today, a lady entered our shelter with three young children. She is a single mom. She has one child who is of a different race than her. This is not something that I ever discuss with our clients. It's not something that I ask about. But, she brought it up and she said, "I want to show you my beautiful son." She went on to tell me (again, I wasn't asking about this... it just came up) that she was violently raped by three men (one event) who were of a different race than her. She has no idea which one of them fathered her son and she has never seen any of them again. It was what we call a "stranger rape". Anyways, as she told me about this, tears began to pour down her face. Literally. Tears were flowing and she said, "You know, it was awful. It was really awful but God gave me a gift that day. God gave me my beautiful son." And, she went on to tell me about how this son adores her and how she has a special closeness with him that reminds her every day that God cares for her and He is always going to take care of her.

 

Ladies, it's like the Lord just smiled on me today. My heart is so full of His Mercy towards us. Christians, we have to make this issue about PEOPLE. It's about real live people. It's not about opinions and statistics. It's not about legality or morality. It's about people made in His image... fallen but fully capable of redemption. Let us really purpose in our hearts to love one another and to love those who don't understand our Lord.

 

 

Many blessings to all!