Please help with curriculum ideas for nonmotivated student

[Kelly in IL]

Hi

I have tried finding threads about this but haven't had a lot of luck. My dd is going to be starting HS next year, but she is not a motivated student and staunchly says she won't go to college. I still have to sit with her through every subject because she will not do work independently, and have tried just about everything, from workbooks to textbooks to Sonlight to computer programs without any real success (she "hates" them all!) I want to give her the best education I can, but am overwhelmed at trying to decided what to try for particularly social studies/science for HS. Thanks for any and all help!

Kelly

[jld]

You're lucky to live in IL, Kelly. The law is pretty loose there, so you have all the freedom you need to do whatever you and dd want.

 

I highly recommend you unschool her. Just let her follow her interests and watch her take off. Stop sitting with her and making her follow a typical high school program. She may decide she wants that later, and she will appreciate your help in setting up that type of program. But it has to be when she wants it, and when she's ready for it.

 

Just enjoy her. Encourage her interests and enjoy your relationship with her. You're saving yourself all kinds of social, moral, and financial hassles by homeschooling her, so don't worry so much about the academics. Not every kid is super academically inclined.

 

You're lucky to have her. I have just one daughter and longed for more. Every time after her a boy came along!:)

 

Best of luck!

[Julie in MN]

Hi

I have tried finding threads about this but haven't had a lot of luck. My dd is going to be starting HS next year, but she is not a motivated student and staunchly says she won't go to college. I still have to sit with her through every subject because she will not do work independently, and have tried just about everything, from workbooks to textbooks to Sonlight to computer programs without any real success (she "hates" them all!) I want to give her the best education I can, but am overwhelmed at trying to decided what to try for particularly social studies/science for HS. Thanks for any and all help!

Kelly

 

I didn't think most kids liked school. Well, none of my 3 would admit it, anyways. And yet, I felt they must be educated... So here are some ground rules at my house:

 

1. School hours are fixed every day. Nothing but educational activities is done during those hours, so that battle is just fought once and then we can put it behind us. I know some folks are very flexible with hours, but it's never worked at our house.

 

2. My children are not allowed to tell me what they don't like. It's of no value. And I'm human and can only take so much. They may tell me what they *would* like and I will take that into consideration. Although, when I've heard enough about it then, well, I've heard enough about it! I as the parent have the responsibility for doing the very best I can for my children, and they are not expected to know what is best until they are adults.

 

3. Whether my children go to college or not is interesting but is not critical in their education. I have standards for graduating from "my" school, and those must be met before I will issue a diploma. I make decisions about those standards according to both my own values and according to what I know the words represent -- for instance, the word "algebra" means certain things to almost everyone, so I must be honest when using that word on a transcript from my school. The words "personal finances" do not have a specific meaning to everyone, but if they are on a high school transcript, they would imply a high school course (which varies widely but isn't 3rd grade).

 

4. Sitting with my children while they school is not something I am against. If my kids were in public school, they would get to sit next to someone. They would get to ask questions of the teacher as well as classmates. They would get to watch how others did an assignment before they had the courage to begin. I hope to encourage independence, but if my kids aren't there yet, that isn't a battle I'm going to risk all for. If I had lots of littles, I might need to, but then my kids would see that need.

 

5. Curriculum changing can be helpful as you work through your dd's schooling, but if it's draining you, then I would just stick with whatever seems to be working best and focus on other things besides curriculum. Digging into writing and math skills, exploring your faith, and building a strong relationship through life's difficulties are foundational. One gal I know was homeschooled with very little higher academics, and yet she jumped into college with both feet and got good grades; the only drawback was a couple of no-credit classes to catch up, but the community college did not charge her much. She knew how to work and how to pay attention and those took her further than her missing science labs. You can have standards that your dd do "something," but that something can vary a lot.

 

6. Allow your dd to change. There is a huge difference between a junior hi kid and a high school young woman. Don't peg her right yet.

 

7. Science curriculum would kind of depend on where she's been so far. But 9th grade options can include 8th grade types of programs, such as Apologia Physical Science. Some other things out there include -

- Friendly Chemistry

- Experiences in Biology or Chemistry (labs)

- Hewitt Conceptual Physics

- I've read several threads where students watched The Teaching Company videos & adding some labs etc.

- Co-ops or other local classes

- Computer sciences

- Possibly Ellen McHenry's books, one book per semester

- Possibly RS4K Chemistry 2

Edited November 10, 2009 by Julie in MN

[Joanne]

I have a question for you. :)

 

Do you want advice on how to homeschool her in a traditional way, with logical consequences, discipline and curriculum?

 

Or........

 

Do you want advice on how to respond to her and create an atmosphere where she'd be more likely to want to learn?

 

I actually don't have a preference on your answer, but I would offer different feedback based on your preference.

[Faithr]

I completely agree with jld. Teens are on the cusp of adulthood. If you give them freedom and the responsibility, they'll rise to the occasion. That long lost ambition that got buried by boredom in learning will revive. They'll discover what it is they want to do in life and then they'll pursue it. Tell her she has to keep busy and well rounded but that she gets to choose. She can take classes, pursue hobbies, read, volunteer, intern, get a job, whatever speaks to her and of course is within your ability to reasonably provide. She can't just sit around and twiddle her thumbs because that's irresponsible but let her plan her life at this point. Lots of teens go through a real slump between 13 and 15 or 16 but then, given the freedom they take hold of their lives and start to think ahead. If you want some guidance in letting your teen blossom on her own volition, you might look into Clonlara. They can hold your hand while you go through this process.

[Grace is Sufficient]

We were lucky enough to have a homeschool co-op near us that is much easier academically than I have always required of my 10th grade, very unmotivated daughter.

 

So it has two benefits: first, the extra motivation of her work being done/seen in front of other teachers/students; and second, she knows that it's less work than I would give her.

 

It's not the education I wanted to give her, but it will have to be good enough, I guess. I think it's still better than she'd get in our local public school.

 

Blessings

[JennW in SoCal]

What I did with my stubborn and unmotivated student was to allow him to delve into his interests. Starting at age 13 he did lots of theater work -- his passion both on stage and behind the scenes. It was something he could be successful at, and it was a hook on which to hang other subjects. He read plays, biographies of playwrights and producers. He adapted scenes from novels into scripts, complete with set designs and lighting cues. For science he did a project on theater special effects and for history he looked at Hollywood's response to WWII. As he matured he finally realized that college was going to be an inevitable part of his career plan, and he was motivated to do more formal academics.

 

I was lucky to have a kid with strong passions -- it didn't seem like luck at the time because it felt more like a frustrating block to the academics I had planned. But it was much easier to find a way to motivate and engage him than it would be to engage a teen who doesn't really have any strong interests or passions. I also had him take home ec and learn other life skills along the way, figuring he needed to be prepared for anything that might happen once he graduated.

 

It is a cross between unschooling and college prep. School happens, preparation for life has to happen. But school doesn't have to be curriculum driven and look like what kids do in a brick and mortar school.

[Sara R]

can't remember the poster's name...

 

With her unmotivated student, she had him do American School for a basic high school education. This only took the student 2-3 hours per day. Then he worked a manual labor or fast food kind of job for a while each day, where he worked with others who had also been unmotivated students, and now regretted it because of the limited options they had as adults. After a year or so of this, the student got the message and became more motivated.

[Nan in Mass]

I don't expect mine to be enthusiastic about academics. Naturally, they would rather be doing their own projects or taking it easy. I try to pick efficient textbooks for the things they especially don't like.

 

We have school hours so we all know when the academics will be done and we can go do our own projects. This allows me to define the basics and cover them in whatever way is easiest for me. (If I were more energetic and less selfish, I would do it the unschooling way, but that is a LOT of work, as far as I can see, on the parents' part, at least in the beginning.)

 

I expect them to be fairly cheerful and cooperative, but not enthusiastic or particularly self-motivated or work independently. The independent part used to bother me, especially about math, until I remembered that I had been taught everything in high school and college. My father even did my math homework with me ever night for a few years there. And we were give time in class to work on our homework, which we did in groups together, and time at the beginning of each class to compare our answers and see how to do the ones we couldn't get. The teacher only went over the ones that nobody got.

 

I ask my children frequently if they are learning and if the way we are doing things is ok, and try to change things if they aren't. They have lots of say in which literature we use and what their history spine will be. They choose projects and extra reading for science. If they don't have any ideas, I pick some things for them to choose between. They know that they can't say, "I don't want to do math." They are allowed to say that they think they'd get the problems better if I did some of them for them, or that they'd understand the example problems better if they read them to themselves, or that they think they'd understand the French better if they could try to answer the questions to themselves orally at first, then read the answers, and then go back and answer the questions. Occasionally, we switch books entirely. I can usually see that coming, but sometimes I've switched at their insistance, or I wanted to switch but they didn't so we stayed put. It is their education and they know what is working and what isn't. I listen to them.

 

If it is a subject in which they are particularly interested, I try hard to find a more unschooly a way for them to do. We have timeslots for our subjects because I am miserable at figuring out how long anything will take and assigning a reasonable amount of work. (Everything seems to take us forever, so even someone else's carefully tested schedule is unlikely to work for us.) I often just schedule the time slot and let the child find a way to fill it. Sometimes, it is something the child is doing on their own (like peacewalking) which needs some background or preparation work which is too academic for the child to want to do out of school hours. In those cases, I give them school time to do part of it, and let them do the rest out of school. I let them skip our regularly scheduled school to learn things. I ask them every year if there is something they particularly want to learn this year. The trick here is that I give them time during the school hours to do it. We have had the same school hours for years, so this carries weight. They aren't choosing between learning something and playing; they are choosing between learning something they want to know, and learning something I choose for them. I have enthusiastic, cooperative children but I don't expect them to choose academics over playing. Their play sometimes involves learning something and often involves things they've learned in school, but it is seldom something that could be considered academic. If we were unschooling, the line would be much blurrier, but mine don't have much play time as it is, so they generally use it as down time.

 

I think TWTM lends itself to this sort of learning very well, this sort of half unschoooling/half schooling. You learn the academic skills efficiently in a formal, more school-like way. And you learn the content in a looser, more unschooling, more flexible way, giving the child lots of choice about the content. It emphasizes living books and learning to learn and aquiring the academic skills needed to efficiently teach oneself.

 

Your child is at a difficult age. Parental (and societal) expectations go up as high school approaches. You tend to look at your child and despair because they are to very far from being able to live on their own and go to college or work. They even seem far from being able to do high school work because when we think of high school, we tend to think of the end of high school. Try not to worry too much. Try to enjoy your child and find things you like to do together and things the child likes to do alone. Things will get better.

 

-Nan

[Tamarind]

for the beautiful advice!

[Susan C.]

What I did (am doing...)

 

I have one graduated, and one 10th grader. Every year, I made them come to the curriculum fair and help me pick their curriculum. I read catalogs, reviews of curriculums, and asked other homeschoolers for input about different curriculums and publishers so I had a base of knowledge to work from. I tried really hard to pick interesting books and to fit each kid's learning style. When they would pick a book at the fair, I made them sit down and read several pages (sometimes they liked the cool graphics and pictures of a text, but when they read it, it was dry). I would tell them you get to live with this for 180 days, you better like it!! We ended up working together and most of the time, got books that were a good fit. For history, they like whole books, it made it more interesting, and they liked anchoring the time periods to specific historical figures. For science, they like Apologia (they like the conversational style). For math, we keep coming back to BJU with the dvds because they like the step by step leading and review. When I went wrong, it was usually because we picked things that were too hard for them (which you can easily do when homeschooling).

[Faithr]

I handled high school a little bit like Susan C in that I tried to make it as collaborative as possible. My situation was this: my oldest dd was not into school at all. Or rather she was schizophrenic about it! She wanted to learn and to go to college but she had no motivation to get herself there. She was far too interested in her girlfriends and boys and neat stuff like theater and clothes and doing her hair than she was in learning Latin, reading the classics, etc. In 9th grade I tried to do WTM with her. It was terrible. I was completely burned out by the end. Our relationship was at a complete all time low and I felt like I was neglecting my younger kids because I was so frantic about doing high school with her.

 

So I gave up. I said we were unschooling and that it was up to her; I was going to go about raising the younger kids but I wasn't going to fight with my oldest anymore. It was amazing what this shift in attitude did! After a while (a couple of months during the summer) we were able to sit down and talk again. She said that she didn't believe in unschooling! She said: "Mom, you know my major fault is that I'm lazy! If I don't have a reason to get up in the morning, I won't do it." This was so very honest of her! Anyway, we determined that she and I would put together a high school program because she did want a college prep course. My job was to get her out of bed and remind her of her obligations because she knew she needed that motivation. Her job was to remember that she had asked me to nag her! And her job also was also to take high school seriously and do her best. She decided to forgo Latin and wait until her senior year to take Spanish at the Com. College. We got her a math tutor. She signed up for homeschool science classes. The rest of the stuff (history and lit) we culled together. For writing help we used http://www.writeguide.com She got to do lots of volunteer work at church which she loved. She also participated in several theater activities which made her happy. She got into college and just got her midterm grades. She got all B's and A's! She's having a blast and is really proud of her new found self-discipline.

 

My current 12th grader just kind of followed along with his older sister but then discovered music and he has taken off on his own trajectory. He's not really going to have a definitive ending of high school/beginning of college because he's decided to move right into the community college. He's taking one course this semester and three courses next semester. He'll probably go there for a year or two and then try to transfer to a conservatory.

 

My current 14 yo is going through a slump. He was always my most traditionally academically inclined who actually preferred a boxed curriculum approach because he likes things neat and tidy and to check off lists. He tends to that way of approaching things. However he's been doing a lot of growing in his 13th and 14th years and he's inclined to be most interested in eating, sleeping and playing videogames! Though he does like to read a lot as well. So we cobbled together a 9th grade curriculum and he's pluckily working through it though it really doesn't thrill him. So I can't say he is highly motivated. However, if he follows the pattern of his older siblings right around age 16 or 17 he'll suddenly realize that he needs to take his life seriously and decide who he wants to become as an adult!

 

So I do think with unmotivated students it really works to give them some freedom and also be patient! It might take a year or two before they wake up and realize this is their life to do with as they will. Most kids have aspirations to something! And given the room, they will pursue it. Some kids just aren't academically inclined and they really don't enjoy school at all. It is hard to get up and do something you don't enjoy day after day with no control over it. Also with freedom and patience from their parental units, I think teens need clear expectations (freedom is not an excuse for laziness) and to know that you are holding them responsible for their actions.

[Nan in Mass]

Remember people asked for honest posts about high school? This is a good, honest post. I hope it helps someone. Thank you Faithr.

[Kelly in IL]

It's so great to have so much support!

[Susan C.]

So I gave up. I said we were unschooling and that it was up to her; I was going to go about raising the younger kids but I wasn't going to fight with my oldest anymore. It was amazing what this shift in attitude did! After a while (a couple of months during the summer) we were able to sit down and talk again. She said that she didn't believe in unschooling! She said: "Mom, you know my major fault is that I'm lazy! If I don't have a reason to get up in the morning, I won't do it." This was so very honest of her! Anyway, we determined that she and I would put together a high school program because she did want a college prep course. My job was to get her out of bed and remind her of her obligations because she knew she needed that motivation. Her job was to remember that she had asked me to nag her! And her job also was also to take high school seriously and do her best. She decided to forgo Latin and wait until her senior year to take Spanish at the Com. College. We got her a math tutor. She signed up for homeschool science classes. The rest of the stuff (history and lit) we culled together. For writing help we used www.writeguide.com She got to do lots of volunteer work at church which she loved. She also participated in several theater activities which made her happy. She got into college and just got her midterm grades. She got all B's and A's! She's having a blast and is really proud of her new found self-discipline.

 

 

 

faithr,

I like this much better than continually threatening sending dd to school (I don't know if I can make myself do that..). Thanks for sharing!

[Storm Bay]

Curriculum ideas (as in your title) since you already have lots of sage advice.

 

Life of Fred really appeals to my nonmotivated dd who is going to college. I was surprised she liked it based on what she liked before. I find it helps to give her a choice of curricula I choose (I don't do this for every subject) so she had more than one Geometry book to choose from (but, in the interest of full disclosure, she has to supplement any book she chooses with another of my choice because a. she's mathy b. I think it's good for math in general and b. I'm rather draconian when it comes to understanding math).

 

Conceptual Chemistry & Conceptual Physics are great courses anyway, but they also may be more appealing to a nonmotivated student because there isn't much math with them. My dd is really enjoying Conceptual Chem this year, especially the lectures in Chemistry Alive! for the first 12 chapters. If you get the 3rd edition, Chem Alive! is included with the text. We're doing MicroChem labs with a few other teens which dd enjoys, as much for the social aspect as for the labs.

 

Dd likes SWB's writing style, so we're going to use her History of the Ancient World as her main history source next semester (spine, but since she likes math & science more than history, I'm not sure how many great books & original sources we'll read with that yet.)

 

That's another thing that I've found. Doing things semester style works better. Dd has to do more per subject per day, but she has fewer subjects to do at once.

 

This doesn't cover all subjects, but it's a start. I combine the "you have to do school because it's the law and certain subjects are required so do it or else" with the more creative, "learn your way, think things through and really understand it rather than simply produce semi-mindless output" approach. I choose my battles.

Edited November 20, 2009 by Karin

[Chris in VA]

Great advice on this thread, even if some of it is conflicting.

 

Just wanted to add for anyone with an unmotivated person in their life--make sure you stay on the lookout for depression. Irritable, sometimes angry, unmotivated, dissatisfied--depression can look an awful lot like "teenhood" and can be mistaken for it, so be aware.

[Kareni]

Here's one older thread that might be of value:

 

Asperger's/no motivation/high school credit

 

I've also tagged this thread and the one that I linked.

 

Regards,

Kareni

Edited November 24, 2009 by Kareni

[Storm Bay]

Great advice on this thread, even if some of it is conflicting.

 

Just wanted to add for anyone with an unmotivated person in their life--make sure you stay on the lookout for depression. Irritable, sometimes angry, unmotivated, dissatisfied--depression can look an awful lot like "teenhood" and can be mistaken for it, so be aware.

 

 

Good point; it's surprising how many teens are depressed. What I've found about conflicting advice is that different things work with different people :).

[Nan in Mass]

What is the difference between teen-ness and depression? I guess I assumed that the teen who wasn't depressed, the late bloomer or the single-minded one, was a rarity?

[Storm Bay]

What is the difference between teen-ness and depression? I guess I assumed that the teen who wasn't depressed, the late bloomer or the single-minded one, was a rarity?

 

 

I'm not the expert. However, my dd has lots and lots of moods, can be very insolent and rude but is not depressed and has a very good self esteem. She has few friends, but is happy with the ones she has, and is quite comfortable with who she is most of the time. I, on the other hand, could be insolent and rude, but had low self esteem and was depressed. She says ruder things to us than I said to my parents, but she's also much more open about her feelings than I was (not all the time about everything, of course, but about the ones that matter in this case.) Also, when she's not being moody, she still gives me hugs and asks to spend time alone with me, which I certainly didn't do with my parents at that age.

[Peela]

I havent read the other repsonses, but I strongly suggest you check out Connect The Thoughts for an extremely unmotivated child. The link is in my signature. It talks to the child in a very respectful way, and values their opinion, and it also develops the child's own voice....its not classical, but it does chronological history. My unmotivated child is thriving on his CTT subjects, and his writing has taken off because I am not allowed to criticise it. As I said...not classical, but if you are at your wits end, consider it.

[Peela]

I handled high school a little bit like Susan C in that I tried to make it as collaborative as possible. My situation was this: my oldest dd was not into school at all. Or rather she was schizophrenic about it! She wanted to learn and to go to college but she had no motivation to get herself there. She was far too interested in her girlfriends and boys and neat stuff like theater and clothes and doing her hair than she was in learning Latin, reading the classics, etc. In 9th grade I tried to do WTM with her. It was terrible. I was completely burned out by the end. Our relationship was at a complete all time low and I felt like I was neglecting my younger kids because I was so frantic about doing high school with her.

 

So I gave up. I said we were unschooling and that it was up to her; I was going to go about raising the younger kids but I wasn't going to fight with my oldest anymore. It was amazing what this shift in attitude did! After a while (a couple of months during the summer) we were able to sit down and talk again. She said that she didn't believe in unschooling! She said: "Mom, you know my major fault is that I'm lazy! If I don't have a reason to get up in the morning, I won't do it." This was so very honest of her! Anyway, we determined that she and I would put together a high school program because she did want a college prep course. My job was to get her out of bed and remind her of her obligations because she knew she needed that motivation. Her job was to remember that she had asked me to nag her! And her job also was also to take high school seriously and do her best. She decided to forgo Latin and wait until her senior year to take Spanish at the Com. College. We got her a math tutor. She signed up for homeschool science classes. The rest of the stuff (history and lit) we culled together. For writing help we used www.writeguide.com She got to do lots of volunteer work at church which she loved. She also participated in several theater activities which made her happy. She got into college and just got her midterm grades. She got all B's and A's! She's having a blast and is really proud of her new found self-discipline.

 

My current 12th grader just kind of followed along with his older sister but then discovered music and he has taken off on his own trajectory. He's not really going to have a definitive ending of high school/beginning of college because he's decided to move right into the community college. He's taking one course this semester and three courses next semester. He'll probably go there for a year or two and then try to transfer to a conservatory.

 

My current 14 yo is going through a slump. He was always my most traditionally academically inclined who actually preferred a boxed curriculum approach because he likes things neat and tidy and to check off lists. He tends to that way of approaching things. However he's been doing a lot of growing in his 13th and 14th years and he's inclined to be most interested in eating, sleeping and playing videogames! Though he does like to read a lot as well. So we cobbled together a 9th grade curriculum and he's pluckily working through it though it really doesn't thrill him. So I can't say he is highly motivated. However, if he follows the pattern of his older siblings right around age 16 or 17 he'll suddenly realize that he needs to take his life seriously and decide who he wants to become as an adult!

 

So I do think with unmotivated students it really works to give them some freedom and also be patient! It might take a year or two before they wake up and realize this is their life to do with as they will. Most kids have aspirations to something! And given the room, they will pursue it. Some kids just aren't academically inclined and they really don't enjoy school at all. It is hard to get up and do something you don't enjoy day after day with no control over it. Also with freedom and patience from their parental units, I think teens need clear expectations (freedom is not an excuse for laziness) and to know that you are holding them responsible for their actions.

 

Thanks faithr, your post helped me a lot too.

[Peela]

What is the difference between teen-ness and depression? I guess I assumed that the teen who wasn't depressed, the late bloomer or the single-minded one, was a rarity?

 

One of my teens has the most bubbly, refreshing personality. She is like sunshine. She isnt a late bloomer either, particularly. But she does seem to be a rarity!

My other isnt depressed, but man, is he moody!

[Storm Bay]

I havent read the other repsonses, but I strongly suggest you check out Connect The Thoughts for an extremely unmotivated child. The link is in my signature. It talks to the child in a very respectful way, and values their opinion, and it also develops the child's own voice....its not classical, but it does chronological history. My unmotivated child is thriving on his CTT subjects, and his writing has taken off because I am not allowed to criticise it. As I said...not classical, but if you are at your wits end, consider it.

 

 

The link in your signature line doesn't work, and it looks like you might have a type in it (connectthr... is that supposed to be connectthe...)

[Peela]

The link in your signature line doesn't work, and it looks like you might have a type in it (connectthr... is that supposed to be connectthe...)

 

 

 

Whooops, thanks for letting me know.

[Storm Bay]

Whooops, thanks for letting me know.

 

You're welcome! :)