If you have decided to NOT get the H1N1 vax

[Tree House Academy]

What have the doctors said? Did they say it is from the vaccine, or is it more likely they were alredy getting sick and happened to get the vaccine at the same time? Did these girls attend ps? They may have already been coming down with it. Was it the shot or the mist? Are they sick with H1N1 or something else?

 

So many people have taken the H1N1 vaccine, and I still haven't heard anything negative, but it's possible these are the first. It does seem unlikely that you would know both of the first cases, so it could just be a coincidence.

 

I just don't know. One little girl is the cousin of an online friend. The other girl is the daughter of a friend of an online friend. So, no, I don't "know" these kids. I know "of" these kids. The friend and cousin are keeping us updated. I don't know if they are ps kids or not. Each got the shot version and immediately went downhill. They thought one of the little girls might have leukemia and that the shot made it show up, but the blood tests were okay. She is still very sick, though.

 

The other little girl was given the shot on Monday, Tuesday went to the hospital with breathing issues, and is now in a bigger hospital on a ventilator.

 

There have actually been several documented cases in the clinical trials of issues with the shot - but all were reported in other countries.

[FriedClams]

It's too new.

Production was rushed.

I don't feel it was adequately tested.

I don't want my family to be guinea pigs.

We don't get regular flu shots.

 

:iagree:

[nukeswife]

I haven't read all the posts but for us, we get our kids all the other typical vaccines (hib, dtap, polio, etc) but have never done flu shots except dh. He's required to get one (it's a Navy thing) and even though I have asthma and am considered someone that is in the "high risk" category I've never gotten any flu shot ever offered. After all these years (12.5 since meeting dh) the only one that has ever gotten the flu is dh.

 

As for the H1N1 shot, it's too new and I don't want to take chances with something that was quickly pushed through for approval and distribution. The PS here keeps hounding me about getting one for dd, because she goes there for speech therapy, but the way I see it she's only there 30 minutes once a week so I'm not going to do it. They asked what I would do if it was required and I said I'd pull her out and find private therapy even if it costs a fortune.

[Seeker]

We don't do vacs, but even if we did, I would not in favor of my child being one of the beta testers for a brand new one. Basically, they cannot really know the long term effects on the general public until it is released and used on the general public for several years. By the time that happens, this flu will be one of the countless others we call "common."

[hornblower]

 

I need some positives and I am sure you are tired of repeating the same things over and over and over as well.

 

OK, here's a positive - As we understand it now, the virus generally presents as mild to moderate. Currently, the overwhelmingly vast, VAST, VAST majority of people who get this virus recover just fine on their own.

 

It's true.

 

 

What I've read & replied to is misinformation about how it's the same flu as always, and paradoxically, it's a much different shot than always. I will correct that. I'm not interested in pushing a vaccine on people. I'm interested in correcting errors of fact.

 

After that there is reasoned decision making & opinion. I think the challenge of this is to accept grey. It's not black & white. It's grey. We don't know. As a pandemic evolves, we keep learning, flu surprises scientists all the time, and all the good scientists repeat ad nauseam "the more we learn about flu, the more we discover we don't know".

 

There are tons of people who do not have access to the vaccine and who will never get to make that choice. I don't think that's a good thing.

 

I think for the individual, the flu is a low risk. Your children statistically have a much greater chance of dying in a car accident since MVA's are the leading cause of death for youth. You could obsess about car accidents each time you need to drive or you could assess the risks, consider the reasoned advice of public health and safety officials and live your life.

 

You've posted before how much this stresses you and that this is a medical problem for you. I'm sorry for that. I hope you can find some way of simply ignoring this subject, esp if you are in circumstances where you don't seem to have options. There are times when "head in sand" is the best approach you can take.

 

best wishes -

[Tree House Academy]

OK, here's a positive - As we understand it now, the virus generally presents as mild to moderate. Currently, the overwhelmingly vast, VAST, VAST majority of people who get this virus recover just fine on their own.

 

It's true.

 

 

What I've read & replied to is misinformation about how it's the same flu as always, and paradoxically, it's a much different shot than always. I will correct that. I'm not interested in pushing a vaccine on people. I'm interested in correcting errors of fact.

 

After that there is reasoned decision making & opinion. I think the challenge of this is to accept grey. It's not black & white. It's grey. We don't know. As a pandemic evolves, we keep learning, flu surprises scientists all the time, and all the good scientists repeat ad nauseam "the more we learn about flu, the more we discover we don't know".

 

There are tons of people who do not have access to the vaccine and who will never get to make that choice. I don't think that's a good thing.

 

I think for the individual, the flu is a low risk. Your children statistically have a much greater chance of dying in a car accident since MVA's are the leading cause of death for youth. You could obsess about car accidents each time you need to drive or you could assess the risks, consider the reasoned advice of public health and safety officials and live your life.

 

You've posted before how much this stresses you and that this is a medical problem for you. I'm sorry for that. I hope you can find some way of simply ignoring this subject, esp if you are in circumstances where you don't seem to have options. There are times when "head in sand" is the best approach you can take.

 

best wishes -

 

Thank you. I mistook your posts, then, and I do apologize. You are right...this is a very personal battle for me (deciding what to do and trying to deal with it while having such bad health anxiety). I appreciate your insight on the situation - even if I probably shouldn't read about it. LOL

[lynn]

I am just answering op question for myself and what I know. I dont' have data, articles etc for this comes from my fil who has been a DR for over 50 years. He keeps up his lisence and takes all the classes and has any new info and studies out there. He keeps up with all current studies and finds and willing researches any info I need on new vaccines that come out. I forget his exact wording against swine flu vaccine but it's bad stuff. The vaccine is causing more problems than it is suppose to prevent. I believe he said something about more people die from the regular flu each year than from swine flu.

 

Even if I did not have my fil and his opinions I still would not be in line for any flu shot. My peditrician recommended dh, myself and the boys get the flu shot the year baby girl was born and dh got shingles and the kids were in and out of the drs office several times w/in a couple of months. Was it just a bad illness season could be but could it have been related to the flu shot, we felt it was. It's a personal choice to get it or not, our choice is not.

Edited October 30, 2009 by lynn

[Tree House Academy]

I'll pray for these little girls... please keep us updated.

 

What gets me angry is that most never hear about the issues in the clinical trials. Do you happen to have a link? What were the issues?

 

If you go to the flu trackers site and search around, you can find some of the articles in the media - like I said, most were over seas. Some of them were "unconfirmed" - of course, I am not sure how one would confirm this. For me, a man dying 12 hours after getting a vaccine points closely to the vaccine. KWIM? However, as hornblower and Perry have both pointed out, not all the vaccines are the same. In the US, we don't have the adjuvants, and so on...so you have to take reports from other countries with a grain of salt as to what will happen here.

[hornblower]

has access to info only doctors can get.

 

Ummmm? What would that be exactly? This secret info? 'cause I don't know of any such thing.

 

JAMA? Lancet? A host of other journals?

MMWR?

 

The data doctors are working with is all public. It's all available.

 

:confused:

 

There's some stuff on bioterrorism and homeland security things which are not widely avail. But they're not widely avail to regular drs either.......

[wulfbourne]

Ummmm? What would that be exactly? This secret info? 'cause I don't know of any such thing.

 

JAMA? Lancet? A host of other journals?

MMWR?

 

The data doctors are working with is all public. It's all available.

 

:confused:

 

There's some stuff on bioterrorism and homeland security things which are not widely avail. But they're not widely avail to regular drs either.......

 

I was assuming she meant journals that doctors frequently read, which means they have easier access.

 

I've found several studies and articles online that I couldn't read without paying 30+ dollars for, and I was never THAT interested.

 

Also, if they're involved in an ongoing study, couldn't that doctor have access to the work before its published? Not sure, just a theory.

[Dawn in OH]

Thimerasol has been removed from all other vaccines (I think it's all), but they got special permission to add it back it in for this one. With a child on the autism spectrum, I'm not willing to risk it.

 

Actually, there is still Thimerosal in many vaccines. Many versions of the Hep B vaccines have it, DTaP, several of the Flu vaccines, at least two of the Hep A vaccines, and I'm sure there's more.

 

Apparently, not all vaccines for the same disease are created equal. You should always check with your Doctor prior to vaccination to find out which version (vaccine maker) is being used to check for all allergens. Many of the vaccines I just looked at had gelatin, eggs, lactose, or latex, all of which are common allergens for many people. While one company's version may be safe for you or your child, another is not.

[Tree House Academy]

I read an article today that said the US had ordered vaccines from all 5 of the vaccine makers. I had mistakenly thought this was NOT the case.

 

The United States has ordered up to 250 million doses of H1N1swine flu vaccine from five companies -- MedImmune, a unit of AstraZeneca, Sanofi-Aventis, Australia's CSL, GlaxoSmithKline and Novartis.

 

Except for MedImmune, all had problems making vaccine at first and are still struggling to make the virus grow in eggs, the first step to manufacturing influenza vaccine.

 

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE59J58H20091028?pageNumber=2&virtualBrandChannel=0

[lynn]

Ummmm? What would that be exactly? This secret info? 'cause I don't know of any such thing.

 

JAMA? Lancet? A host of other journals?

MMWR?

 

The data doctors are working with is all public. It's all available.

 

:confused:

 

There's some stuff on bioterrorism and homeland security things which are not widely avail. But they're not widely avail to regular drs either.......

 

Nothing secret about it. Changed the wording, I did not intend for it to be misleading. Sorry if it was.

[momtothreeboys]

I'm finding it quite interesting that several doctors are not recommending the h1n1 vax. I know our ped is not giving the vax to his two high risk kids and when I called to ask about my high risk child he told me not to. But I also delay and selectively vax with the other vaccines. Our ped does delay vaxes on his own kids. He is not the only local ped to be saying this. My friends who have different peds then mine are reporting the same info from their peds. What is making some of the ped doctors not give this vaccine to their own kids? It makes me wonder what info they have that is not going out to the general public. Granted the odds of them having info we don't is slim but I find it very interesting that in a group of 25 local peds, in my area and not all in the same practice, 21 of them are not recommending the h1n1 vax.

[hornblower]

The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends it.

http://www.aap.org/advocacy/releases/may09swinefluqanda.htm#2

 

"

Certain high-risk groups of people should be first in line to get the H1N1 (swine flu) vaccine. That includes all children ages 6 months through 24 years of age, caretakers of children younger than 6 months, pregnant women, health care workers and emergency services personnel, and adults ages 25 to 64 with chronic medical conditions that increase their risk of flu complications. "

 

[Dawn in OH]

The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends it.

http://www.aap.org/advocacy/releases/may09swinefluqanda.htm#2

 

"

Certain high-risk groups of people should be first in line to get the H1N1 (swine flu) vaccine. That includes all children ages 6 months through 24 years of age, caretakers of children younger than 6 months, pregnant women, health care workers and emergency services personnel, and adults ages 25 to 64 with chronic medical conditions that increase their risk of flu complications. "

 

 

 

From the looks of these package inserts, the vaccine makers themselves don't exactly agree with The American Academy of Pediatrics.

 

Pharmacutical Company: Novartis Vaccines and Diagnostics Limited

8.1 Pregnancy

Pregnancy Category C: Animal reproduction studies have not been conducted with Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine or FLUVIRIN. It is also not known whether Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine or FLUVIRIN can cause fetal harm when administered to a pregnant woman or can affect reproduction capacity. Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine should be given to a pregnant woman only if clearly needed.

8.3 Nursing Mothers

It is not known whether FLUVIRIN or Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine is excreted in human milk. Because many drugs are excreted in human milk, caution should be exercised when Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine is administered to a nursing woman.

8.4

Pediatric Use

Safety and effectiveness in pediatric subjects below the age of 4 years have not been established.

 

 

Pharmacutical Company: Sanofi Pasteur, Inc.

8.1. Pregnancy

Pregnancy Category C: Animal reproduction studies have not been conducted with Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine or Fluzone vaccine. It is also not known whether these vaccines can cause fetal harm when administered to a pregnant woman or can affect reproduction capacity. Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine should be given to a pregnant woman only if clearly needed.

8.3.

Nursing Mothers

It is not known whether Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine or Fluzone vaccine is excreted in human milk. Because many drugs are excreted in human milk, caution should be exercised when this vaccine is administered to a nursing woman.

8.4.

Pediatric Use

Safety and effectiveness in pediatric subjects below the age of 6 months have not been established. The immune response and safety of Fluzone vaccine was evaluated in 31 children between the ages of 6-26 months.

Pharmacutical Company: GlaxoSmithKline Biologicals, License #1617

8.1 Pregnancy

Pregnancy Category B

Reproduction studies have been performed in female rats at a dose approximately 56 times the human dose (on a mg/kg basis) and have revealed no evidence of impaired fertility or harm to the fetus due to FLUARIX. There are, however, no adequate and well-controlled studies in pregnant women. Because animal reproduction studies are not always predictive of human response, FLUARIX should be given to a pregnant woman only if clearly needed.

In a reproduction toxicity study, the effect of FLUARIX on embryo-fetal and pre-weaning development was evaluated in pregnant rats. Animals were administered FLUARIX by intramuscular injection once prior to gestation, and during the period of organogenesis (gestation days 6, 8, 11, and 15), 0.1 mL/rat/occasion (approximately 56-fold excess relative to the projected human dose on a body weight basis). No adverse effects on mating, female fertility, pregnancy, parturition, lactation parameters, and embryo-fetal or pre-weaning development were observed. There were no vaccine-related fetal malformations or other evidence of teratogenesis.

8.3 Nursing Mothers

It is not known whether FLUARIX is excreted in human milk. Because many drugs are excreted in human milk, caution should be exercised when FLUARIX is administered to a nursing woman.

8.4 Pediatric Use

The immune response of FLUARIX has been evaluated in children 6 months to <5 years of age. In a randomized, controlled study, serum hemagglutination-inhibition (HI) antibody titers were lower in children 6 months to <3 years of age compared to a US-licensed vaccine. Immune responses in children 3 years to <5 years of age receiving FLUARIX or a US-licensed vaccine have been evaluated [see Clinical Studies (14.2)]. Safety has been evaluated in children 6 months to <18 years of age. The frequencies of solicited adverse events for children 3 years to <5 years of age and for children 5 years to <18 years of age were similar for FLUARIX and the comparator vaccine.

 

 

 

I could copy and paste all of them here, but they all say the same thing: There have not been adequate tests done on pregnant women or children (unless you consider 31 children adequate testing). They also DO NOT recommend giving their own product to pregnant women.

 

 

 

You can find all the package inserts here.

[ereks mom]

It's too new.

Production was rushed.

I don't feel it was adequately tested.

I don't want my family to be guinea pigs.

We don't get regular flu shots.

 

:iagree:

[christielee7278]

They also DO NOT recommend giving their own product to pregnant women.

 

That is scary considering our county says pregnant women should have the vaccine.

 

I found it odd tonight as I watched the news that while our county health dept says pregnant women and children under 5 are most high risk, a county next to us say they are only offering the vax to children 5-18 because they are most high risk.

 

This is probably the biggest reason why we are shying away from the vax right now. Nobody seems to know for sure...at least around here.

[ekarl2]

From the looks of these package inserts, the vaccine makers themselves don't exactly agree with The American Academy of Pediatrics.

 

Pharmacutical Company: Novartis Vaccines and Diagnostics Limited

8.1 Pregnancy

Pregnancy Category C: Animal reproduction studies have not been conducted with Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine or FLUVIRIN. It is also not known whether Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine or FLUVIRIN can cause fetal harm when administered to a pregnant woman or can affect reproduction capacity. Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine should be given to a pregnant woman only if clearly needed.

8.3 Nursing Mothers

It is not known whether FLUVIRIN or Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine is excreted in human milk. Because many drugs are excreted in human milk, caution should be exercised when Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine is administered to a nursing woman.

8.4

Pediatric Use

Safety and effectiveness in pediatric subjects below the age of 4 years have not been established.

 

 

Pharmacutical Company: Sanofi Pasteur, Inc.

8.1. Pregnancy

Pregnancy Category C: Animal reproduction studies have not been conducted with Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine or Fluzone vaccine. It is also not known whether these vaccines can cause fetal harm when administered to a pregnant woman or can affect reproduction capacity. Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine should be given to a pregnant woman only if clearly needed.

8.3.

Nursing Mothers

It is not known whether Influenza A (H1N1) 2009 Monovalent Vaccine or Fluzone vaccine is excreted in human milk. Because many drugs are excreted in human milk, caution should be exercised when this vaccine is administered to a nursing woman.

8.4.

Pediatric Use

Safety and effectiveness in pediatric subjects below the age of 6 months have not been established. The immune response and safety of Fluzone vaccine was evaluated in 31 children between the ages of 6-26 months.

Pharmacutical Company: GlaxoSmithKline Biologicals, License #1617

8.1 Pregnancy

Pregnancy Category B

Reproduction studies have been performed in female rats at a dose approximately 56 times the human dose (on a mg/kg basis) and have revealed no evidence of impaired fertility or harm to the fetus due to FLUARIX. There are, however, no adequate and well-controlled studies in pregnant women. Because animal reproduction studies are not always predictive of human response, FLUARIX should be given to a pregnant woman only if clearly needed.

In a reproduction toxicity study, the effect of FLUARIX on embryo-fetal and pre-weaning development was evaluated in pregnant rats. Animals were administered FLUARIX by intramuscular injection once prior to gestation, and during the period of organogenesis (gestation days 6, 8, 11, and 15), 0.1 mL/rat/occasion (approximately 56-fold excess relative to the projected human dose on a body weight basis). No adverse effects on mating, female fertility, pregnancy, parturition, lactation parameters, and embryo-fetal or pre-weaning development were observed. There were no vaccine-related fetal malformations or other evidence of teratogenesis.

8.3 Nursing Mothers

It is not known whether FLUARIX is excreted in human milk. Because many drugs are excreted in human milk, caution should be exercised when FLUARIX is administered to a nursing woman.

8.4 Pediatric Use

The immune response of FLUARIX has been evaluated in children 6 months to <5 years of age. In a randomized, controlled study, serum hemagglutination-inhibition (HI) antibody titers were lower in children 6 months to <3 years of age compared to a US-licensed vaccine. Immune responses in children 3 years to <5 years of age receiving FLUARIX or a US-licensed vaccine have been evaluated [see Clinical Studies (14.2)]. Safety has been evaluated in children 6 months to <18 years of age. The frequencies of solicited adverse events for children 3 years to <5 years of age and for children 5 years to <18 years of age were similar for FLUARIX and the comparator vaccine.

 

 

 

I could copy and paste all of them here, but they all say the same thing: There have not been adequate tests done on pregnant women or children (unless you consider 31 children adequate testing). They also DO NOT recommend giving their own product to pregnant women.

 

 

 

You can find all the package inserts here.

 

 

Wow. WOW. Wow.

 

Do any of you wonder WHO these 31 kids are? Would YOU sign your child up to have a new, untested vaccine tried on them????

[Blessedfamily]

From the looks of these package inserts, the vaccine makers themselves don't exactly agree with The American Academy of Pediatrics.

 

Pharmacutical Company: Novartis Vaccines and Diagnostics Limited

......

Pediatric Use

Safety and effectiveness in pediatric subjects below the age of 4 years have not been established.

 

 

.........

 

 

8.4.Pediatric Use Safety and effectiveness in pediatric subjects below the age of 6 months have not been established. The immune response and safety of Fluzone vaccine was evaluated in 31 children between the ages of 6-26 months.

 

 

The immune response of FLUARIX has been evaluated in children 6 months to <5 years of age. In a randomized, controlled study, serum hemagglutination-inhibition (HI) antibody titers were lower in children 6 months to <3 years of age compared to a US-licensed vaccine. Immune responses in children 3 years to <5 years of age receiving FLUARIX or a US-licensed vaccine have been evaluated [see Clinical Studies (14.2)]. Safety has been evaluated in children 6 months to <18 years of age. The frequencies of solicited adverse events for children 3 years to <5 years of age and for children 5 years to <18 years of age were similar for FLUARIX and the comparator vaccine.[/color]

 

 

 

.......

 

Oh, dear! And one company tested it one 31 kids? I hope they did more than that.

 

No thank you.

[Tree House Academy]

Wow. WOW. Wow.

 

Do any of you wonder WHO these 31 kids are? Would YOU sign your child up to have a new, untested vaccine tried on them????

 

I saw a news story a few weeks ago. One mom who lost and infant to the flu in 2004 or so signed up all 5 of her other children for the trials. I would have to think fear drove her to do it. I can't even imagine.