4H or Boy Scouts

[tdeveson]

This year I'd like ds to join an organization similar to 4H or Boy Scouts if we can find a good group near us.

 

I'm sort of torn trying to figure out which way to go. Ds is fine with either one.

 

I like the discipline and record of the Boy Scouts. I have major issues with their views on gays and lesbians. And since we're not believers, their reliance in God is a bit off-putting.

 

I love the idea of joining a 4H club, but we're not farmers. We live somewhere between the suburbs and the farms. My friends just call it BFE when I ask them to come over. ;) We do plant our own vegetable garden every year and each year it grows. We'll also can and freeze some of our harvest. Ditto the religion stuff above.

 

Which do you prefer? What do you look for in an organization? We did Cub Scouts years ago and it was lame, but we're ready to try a group again.

 

I'd be grateful for any advise or insights.

[vettechmomof2]

You do not need to farm to join 4-H at all. They have Speech, computer science, veterinary science, shooting sports, animals of varying types while owning or just learning about that type of animal, trees, hiking,swimming, health.

All sorts of fun things.

 

I will no try to sway you towards a particular group because a lot of it also depends on the individual leader for either 4-H or Scouts on how a group is run.

 

We are members of 2 different 4-H groups and they are both run very differently.

[In The Great White North]

It really depends on the group and leaders. Try them both and see who fits your family best.

[fshinkevich]

4-H in our area has a TON of different programs that have nothing to do with farming, and you can sign up for more than one activity if you have the time, so I would check it out.

 

I agree with you about Boy Scouts, I refuse to give them a single dime or second of my time.

 

I have heard of a group similar to Boy Scouts, but without the religious aspect and discrimination. Unfortunately I cannot remember the name (there is not a group in my area) but maybe someone here knows what I'm talking about?

[Audrey]

This year I'd like ds to join an organization similar to 4H or Boy Scouts if we can find a good group near us.

 

I'm sort of torn trying to figure out which way to go. Ds is fine with either one.

 

I like the discipline and record of the Boy Scouts. I have major issues with their views on gays and lesbians. And since we're not believers, their reliance in God is a bit off-putting.

 

I love the idea of joining a 4H club, but we're not farmers. We live somewhere between the suburbs and the farms. My friends just call it BFE when I ask them to come over. ;) We do plant our own vegetable garden every year and each year it grows. We'll also can and freeze some of our harvest. Ditto the religion stuff above.

 

Which do you prefer? What do you look for in an organization? We did Cub Scouts years ago and it was lame, but we're ready to try a group again.

 

I'd be grateful for any advise or insights.

 

 

4-H isn't all farmers raising cows and sheep, ya know. :D Actually, that's only one small choice in 4-H. There are numerous projects to choose from in the club -- everything from cooking and sewing to woodworking and small engine repair. There are projects on health and wellbeing, photography, crafts, outdoor/survival skills, gardening, small animals (which includes pets), etc.

 

You should ask the club what they do. Some clubs do focus specifically on livestock. Usually you can tell because they are called the "TownName Beef Club" or something like that. Most clubs that have "combined" in their name offer any of the projects to the kids rather than focusing solely on a certain kind of livestock. The combined clubs are great because you pick a different project each year, so it's not the same old same old every year.

 

My son belongs to 2 clubs. The SmallTown Combined Club where he is doing the beginner level woodworking project this year, and the AnotherSmallTown Beef Club for which he is raising another calf.

 

FWIW, 4-H (in Canada at least) accepts all persons aged 8-19. Period. They do not discriminate. Period. But then again, it is against our Charter of Rights to discriminate on race, gender, religion or orientation. So YMMV down south.

Edited October 17, 2009 by Audrey

[Audrey]

I have heard of a group similar to Boy Scouts, but without the religious aspect and discrimination. Unfortunately I cannot remember the name (there is not a group in my area) but maybe someone here knows what I'm talking about?

 

 

Do you mean Spiral Scouts?

[elegantlion]

We've done scouting before and this year ds joined 4H. We don't farm either but was encouraged to try by another homeschooling friend. I really didn't realize there was so many projects besides agriculture related ones. They've only had two meetings our group is made up exclusively of homeschoolers.

 

I like that the students run the meeting, there are many projects to pick from. I also like that it isn't just boys and that our group has children from 9 through high school. My son is doing shooting sports this year. I'm excited to see where this year will head.

 

I believe you can only sign up one time a year and I know the deadline here is November 1. I could be wrong, someone please correct me if I am.

 

 

(Sorry for the random ramblings. I'm on benadryl and not forming complete thoughts in my head)

[Tangerine]

Do you mean Spiral Scouts?

 

That's my guess too.

 

I've looked into them, but since they're obviously less prominent, the closest group was just too far for us.

[Cera]

I refuse to support by scouts because of their policies. I would try out the local 4H groups to see how religiously oriented they are (this would be the make or break for our family).

 

Is he interested in Aviation? I have always heard good things about civil air patrol.

[scrapbabe]

My son participates in both. I like scouts for the outdoor-sy stuff - like camping, etc. I am not a big camper, so I like that he's getting the experience through scouts. But he is doing a Tech Team through 4-h and he loves it! It's stuff they won't really cover in scouts (robotics, computers, making/editing movies, etc.) Could you not do both?

 

Smiles,

Shalynn

[OHGrandma]

GS10 also does both. Our 4H club is primarily livestock, and he takes cattle along with a non-livestock project. In our area most of the 4H livestock clubs are inactive after the fair until about March. There are deadlines for different projects at different times. 4H does not have 'Duty to God' as one of their foundation beliefs, but our club does have a quick prayer before carry-in meals. Other than that, it's non-religious.

Our Cub Scout pack is active year 'round. We like to do the camping and stuff. Our scout pack has some kids with atheist/agnostic parents. There is no discrimination on allowing these boys to join. But because "Duty to God" is a part of scouts, they are expected to be respectful our our beliefs, too.

Some projects can be done for both 4H & Scouts. Shooting sports are big around here in both 4H & Scouts.

[Janet in WA]

 

And since we're not believers, their reliance in God is a bit off-putting.

The BSA does not just have a reliance on God, it requires that its members believe in God/a supreme being, and that the member practice that faith (in whatever is the member's custom). If your son has no such belief at all, the BSA probably won't be a good fit.

[Blessedwithboys]

My boys are already very active in the outdoors. So, I haven't done scouts. But, the younger boys are involved with a local 4-H club. In our club the boys are active with photography, wood working, speech, baking, and county round up competitions. No farming here.

[katemary63]

As others have said, agriculture is only a small part of what is available through 4-H. Our tiny town has a tech club that went to state and then nationals ( in Hawaii!) in robotics. You can do a project on ANY thing you want. We LOVE 4-H.

[tdeveson]

The BSA does not just have a reliance on God, it requires that its members believe in God/a supreme being, and that the member practice that faith (in whatever is the member's custom). If your son has no such belief at all, the BSA probably won't be a good fit.

 

That's what I'm thinking. It really is a religious organization flying under the radar as a "general" organization. Their policy on sexual orientation is particularly disturbing to us, so dh and I would have a very difficult time supporting them. More importantly, we're afraid their philosophy would somehow rub off on our son who knows better, but is young and prone to peer pressure. In general, I find it a very unhealthy atmosphere for a young man. Dh and I have spoken about it since last night, and we're pretty convinced that the Boy Scouts would not be a good fit.

 

Someone mentioned the Spiral Scouts. I also heard of Earth Scouts, but neither one of these organizations have taken off in the deep south (as if!). I am soooooooooo in the wrong geographic location!:tongue_smilie:

[tdeveson]

 

Yes, a belief in God must be espoused by the Scout.

In the words of Lord Baden-Powell:

"No man can be really good, if he doesn't believe in God and he doesn't follow His laws. This is why all Scouts must have a religion".

(Scouting for Boys, 1908)

 

Thank you, Margaret in Co., for the quote. Now that I read it I realize how truly misguided they are. Imagine thinking that you must have religion to be a good person. :lol:

 

That's too hilarious after witnessing "man of god" after "man of god" get caught in affairs with hookers, other men, and children. Then all they have to do is pray over it, and Voila! the Governor is rehabilitated.

 

It looks like 4-H for us. Their website isn't helpful. When I search for a group, it gives exactly two entries in Florida and both are universities hundreds of miles away from us. Does anyone know of a better way to find local groups? Maybe I missed something at their website.

[Tangerine]

Thank you, Margaret in Co., for the quote. Now that I read it I realize how truly misguided they are. Imagine thinking that you must have religion to be a good person. :lol:

 

That's too hilarious after witnessing "man of god" after "man of god" get caught in affairs with hookers, other men, and children. Then all they have to do is pray over it, and Voila! the Governor is rehabilitated.

 

It looks like 4-H for us. Their website isn't helpful. When I search for a group, it gives exactly two entries in Florida and both are universities hundreds of miles away from us. Does anyone know of a better way to find local groups? Maybe I missed something at their website.

 

I thought that quote was a bit backhanded myself. Blech.

 

I've always found 4-H info through university extension offices. My kids are still too young to participate, but when I was looking for local chapters, I had to email the office to find them. The websites weren't a wealth of information.

[tdeveson]

I thought that quote was a bit backhanded myself. Blech.

 

I've always found 4-H info through university extension offices. My kids are still too young to participate, but when I was looking for local chapters, I had to email the office to find them. The websites weren't a wealth of information.

 

That's what I just did. I went to the extension website just now and found some email addresses. There is a pdf with the names of our local clubs, but without any contact information. There seems to be one 4H club really near us and it says "homeschoolers" on it! I'm excited. Unfortunately the pdf says they are not taking new members. Who knows how old that pdf is -- maybe they have room for us. I've emailed the person whose email is published in the extension office.

 

I'm excited!

[tdeveson]

Our state 4-H has its own web site, ca4h.org. Based on that, you might try for fl4h.org.

 

Good idea! But no, there's no website there. Thank you for all the good information. I'll also look into starting our own club if I can't find a good fit here. I know other families that would/might be interested.

[tdeveson]

This looks promising. Our local website talks about over 50 project books. If I can't find a local group, I can still use one of the project books this year with ds some other kids.

 

Unfortunately, this website is clunky. It teases you with a bunch of great photos of the books, but none of them are hot and there's no link to a list. :tongue_smilie: Does anyone know if there is a list out there somewhere of the "over 50 project books?"

 

Also, how long does a project book take? Does one do only one project book per year, or do different kids work out of different books? Has anyone done this?

[tdeveson]

Thanks, Margaret. Your comments were helpful. :001_smile: I didn't mean to give the impression that I wanted to shoot the messenger because I didn't like the message.

[Guest Lambsedivy]

There's also Campfire, as a scouting alternative. We participate as a family, and it's worked out very well for us. There are emblems to earn, individual and group activities, campouts, etc.

 

http://www.campfireusa.org/

 

It used to be Campfire girls, but is now Co-ed.

[Janet in WA]

In general, I find it a very unhealthy atmosphere for a young man.

 

We've found it to be quite the opposite.

 

But I gave you the above information because I wanted you to be clear about the BSA's stance on belief in God, which didn't seem to be something with which your family would be comfortable.

[Audrey]

That's what I just did. I went to the extension website just now and found some email addresses. There is a pdf with the names of our local clubs, but without any contact information. There seems to be one 4H club really near us and it says "homeschoolers" on it! I'm excited. Unfortunately the pdf says they are not taking new members. Who knows how old that pdf is -- maybe they have room for us. I've emailed the person whose email is published in the extension office.

 

I'm excited!

 

 

In Florida, check your COUNTY extension office. They are usually the organizing office for the local 4-H groups. New groups pop up now and again.

[Audrey]

This looks promising. Our local website talks about over 50 project books. If I can't find a local group, I can still use one of the project books this year with ds some other kids.

 

Unfortunately, this website is clunky. It teases you with a bunch of great photos of the books, but none of them are hot and there's no link to a list. :tongue_smilie: Does anyone know if there is a list out there somewhere of the "over 50 project books?"

 

Also, how long does a project book take? Does one do only one project book per year, or do different kids work out of different books? Has anyone done this?

 

 

Most kids do just one project book a year. Some are very involved and do take that long. Some are much less involved and in that case someone who is ambitious might do 2 projects in a year.

[Peek a Boo]

This looks promising. Our local website talks about over 50 project books. If I can't find a local group, I can still use one of the project books this year with ds some other kids.

 

Unfortunately, this website is clunky. It teases you with a bunch of great photos of the books, but none of them are hot and there's no link to a list. :tongue_smilie: Does anyone know if there is a list out there somewhere of the "over 50 project books?"

 

Also, how long does a project book take? Does one do only one project book per year, or do different kids work out of different books? Has anyone done this?

 

 

yeah, 4-H is almost too open-ended, but that makes it a perfect fit for almost anyone ;)

 

You do not need an official project book to get started in 4-H.

You don't even need to use "state -specific" stuff for project guidelines. I use other state's stuff all the time.

 

Decide what you want to do first: what do your kids like? legos? dogs? science? history?

THAT topic will be your project.

 

Now you need to determine 6 project experiences that will run the gamut of learning, leadership, and community service.

 

The best source [that i've found] for determining what types of learning experiences you can plan can be found here:

 

http://texas4-h.tamu.edu/publications/

 

Scroll down to "Annual Membership and Publications" and open the 2009-2010 Texas 4-H Clover.

 

The Texas Clover is a one-stop glossary outlining what is offered in TX. The first few pages give a huge list of types of experiences and how to categorize them. That will be applicable to almost ANY type of 4-H project anywhere. Pay attention especially to pages 4 and 5 [numbered on the pdf]. There's a LOT you can do!!!!!!

 

Just let us know what kinds of stuff y'all already like to do, and we'll walk you through setting it up as a 4-H project :)

 

and the best part?? 4-H works great with scouting organizations, and since, yeah, BSA is NOT the organization that would serve your needs, i'm sure you can find or start a local scout club. For us, doing a merit badge doubles as a 4-H project, kinda like dual credit classes. ;)

 

4-H also offers competition and scholarship opportunities that homeschoolers often lack.

 

some 4-H projects we've done:

 

3-D art [lego structures, history dioramas]

Reptiles

Public Speaking

Citizenship in the Community

Hiking/Camping

Food and Nutrition

Personal Fitness

Aviation

First Aid

 

no farming or livestock yet, but I'm looking at the Jr. Master Gardener thing pretty closely......

 

Have fun!!

[jayfromcleveland]

"Eagle scout" is a resume builder for a young man and scholarship money is available for college. I'm not aware of any such distinction in other youth programs.

 

I like the discipline and record of the Boy Scouts. I have major issues with their views on gays and lesbians. And since we're not believers, their reliance in God is a bit off-putting.

 

 

The BSA is not a "religious organization flying under the radar." It is not affiliated with any denomination, and is not exclusively Christian. There are Christian, Jewish, Moslem and even Hindu scouts, including specific-religious-focus troops chartered under different churches, synagogues, whatever. However, the BSA emphasizes "duty to God" and went to the Supreme Court to resist atheists seeking to undermine that aspect.

 

As for gays, the issue is freedom of association, as guaranteed by the First Amendment. As a private organization, the BSA has the right to establish any leadership standards of their own choosing. If that troubles you, you will be glad to know that, since winning their Supreme Court decision, the BSA has been punished greatly by denial of funds from many sources such as United Way.

 

The background is that in the 70s and 80s, the BSA had a serious problem with pedophiles infiltrating the ranks of scout leaders. After many lawsuits, hyper-strict youth protection policies were instituted, including FBI background checks. Though the BSA has not officially said as much, I believe the organization is wary of having open homosexuals as adult leaders for this reason. Sorry, but most heterosexual men regard man-boy same-sex attraction to be under the GLBT umbrella. At the very least, it would likely be hard for a gay-led scout troop to recruit among straight fathers of sons. Given the time and commitment level required, most scout leaders are dads with sons in the troop. I personally would be very suspicious of the motives of any single non-parent male willing to make that sort of investment in order to get close to other people's boys.

 

At any rate, the scout adult leader application does not include a question inquiring about sexual orientation, effectively giving the BSA a "don't ask, don't tell" policy. The only way orientation would even become an issue would be if an open homosexual wished to parade his lifestyle before the troop, which even some "progressive" parents might deem inappropriate. The BSA generally promotes character development and does not teach about sexuality one way or other, except perhaps in a health context. As such, the BSA does not actively promote heterosexuality per se, so any demonstations of other orientations would be similarly inappropriate.

 

My two cents, take it or leave it.

[mommyrooch]

We're very involved with both. Our 4-H groups are not terribly active until the push from May to July. Then, back down to about once a month. There are any number of possible projects.

 

Our Scouts are ALWAYS going and doing. Lots of weekends, lots of camping, weekly meetings. btw--the techie stuff is available in Scouts, too. With 121 merit badges, with another 4 added after the first of the year, there is something for every interest!

 

Yes, a belief in God must be espoused by the Scout.

In the words of Lord Baden-Powell:

"No man can be really good, if he doesn't believe in God and he doesn't follow His laws. This is why all Scouts must have a religion".

(Scouting for Boys, 1908)

 

 

From Boy Scouts of America:

Scout Oath On my honor I will do my best

To do my duty to God and my country

and to obey the Scout Law;

To help other people at all times;

To keep myself physically strong,

mentally awake, and morally straight.

 

Scout Law A Scout is:

Trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, Reverent.

 

That Oath and Law are why we like Scouts. My ds just passed his Eagle Board of Review.

 

:iagree: My husband is an Eagle Scout and we hope that our son will achieve that as well.

 

I can see how others are put off by it though. That is their right. Just as going to a particular church or not going at all is their right.

 

Boy Scouts is definitely a Christian organization. If you are a Christian then it is likely that it would be a good fit. If your not then it wouldn't be. It's as simple as that.

[mommyrooch]

No, BSA is not specifically Christian. Near my brother is a Muslim troop and also a Jewish troop. Even out in the boonies in our council we have Jewish and Muslim Scouts and our troop had a Buddhist Scout for awhile. Some troops are chartered by churches/temples/mosques and it is up to the chartering organization to decide if you must be a member to be part of the Scout troop. Our LDS troop in town will allow non-LDS as members but you join knowing that the Mormon religion will be a big part of their troop. We are chartered by the Elks and meet at the Catholic church--and we belong to the Lutheran church! All that is required is a belief in God.

 

Thanks for clarifying this. Since we have always been involved in a Christian group and since the BS oath implies not only a belief in God but also a duty to God I have always associated BS as a Christian organization. As I stated, my husband is an Eagle Scout and his group growing up was also Christian so we both have always associated BS with Christianity.