If you had to give something up.....Latin????

[homeschoolally]

I'm 1000% sold on Classical Education and the benefits of Latin. I agree that it builds logical thinking in a way no other language can, that it prepares one to learn all the romance languages more easily, helps with English Grammar, helps with vocab on the SAT, gives one greater accessibility to the original classics...and so on. I am a HUGE believer in a Latin Centered Curriculum--in theory.

 

In our case, we've been working on it for 3 years (a lighter load for Elementary School) and we're digging DEEP (much deeper than I'd like) into English Grammar so that we'll be prepared for moving into 4 years of more rigorous Latin in middle school and first 2 years of HS. The following 2 years were left to learn Spanish.

 

I'm coming to terms with the fact that for our oldest, we are going to have to scale down/refocus our priorities due to a puzzling combination of learning disabilities and giftedness. Reading the previous thread about the Science/Math focused homeschool really sharpened my perspective on this. We've almost given up science completely, due to the demands of keeping up with the memory work, 3 R's and Latin. So my son's passion, Science--has been completely squeezed out of the picture to keep up with my idea of a good classical education.

 

At some point, is it reasonable to determine that the time invested in Latin might be better spent for a particular child on another subject? In our case, slow processing speed and ADD issues are so severe that we just can't fit it all in. It is made even more confusing by the fact that he is a really bright child who is academically capable of so much more than he can actually produce.

 

I never thought I'd consider cutting out Latin, but for some differently-abled children--is it better to teach to their strengths? He's actually pretty good with Latin, and doesn't mind doing it--but there just aren't enough hours in the day or years left in our nest.

 

Thanks in advance for any feedback--I'm wondering if other people have had to make this decision. I don't want to feel like I'm 'selling out' Classical Education---but if Latin doesn't go, what else can?

 

Thank you, thank you, thank you for sharing your thoughts!:)

[SonshineLearner]

How old is he? :-)

[homeschoolally]

thanks for your input!

[Carol in Cal.]

...it probably makes him feel competent. So I would not recommend dropping it completely, but I would say that you should consider slowing down markedly at this point, and adding a lot of science. If that is really his gift, and if he has other issues, he is going to be handicapped in high school and beyond if he doesn't start learning the concepts and vocabulary now. It sounds like he needs to lay more of a foundation than some others do to be able to progress, and I think it's great that you're realizing this now and going after it.

 

Yes, ideally we would all do everything, but that is not our world.

[SonshineLearner]

Off the top of my head..... is the grammar needed for Latin, not lightening his "grammar" load? Where is he in Latin? For me, I consider it "Logic" of a sort, too. And, of course, I suppose it's "Where is he in Latin?"

Also, is he in 7th this year?

 

Carrie:-)

[Amy loves Bud]

I agree with Carol. The great thing about Latin is there are typically no requirements to get to a certain level by a certain age like there are with, say, math.

 

Slow it down. Work on it two days a week and add in the science. Continuing in a subject he is good at will yield many benefits. It doesn't have to be all or nothing!

[Ester Maria]

I agree that it builds logical thinking in a way no other language can,

I don't intend to go off-topic here, but I cannot resist from commenting this. That is SO wrong.

There is nothing - NOTHING - inherent in Latin as a language which would make it a better choice for analytical study than any other language.

It's the APPROACH that makes the studying more analytical (since it's a "dead" language, naturally), and NOT the language itself. As much as I love Latin, it is NOT some kind of magical language which will sharp your mind or anything like that.

 

At some point, is it reasonable to determine that the time invested in Latin might be better spent for a particular child on another subject?

Absolutely.

 

The problem is "only" in whether you consider your child's education something which consists of many little units which are being "invested", and thus measure the need for them by a practical "utility" or the current fits and talents your child has... or you think it is a little more than that and you need bits of everything to create a good quality, big picture before your child can make an intelligent decision of what he wants to do in life. ;)

 

"Closing" opportunities for your child, because he prefers some things over the others, is something I would never do. I have two gifted daughters, both gifted in completely different ways - the older one is more of a "linguistic" type, does well with humanities and languages, while the younger one is a very "scientific" one and is completely into sciences and math. They both study SAME subjects. What I allow to vary is the FOCUS. I do allow them some choice in how intensively they want to study certain areas, but I am NOT indulging them and cutting off entire areas I consider important for them because they'd prefer to do without them.

 

So I say, don't cut off what you think is important. Just give it less attention. In case of languages, I really wouldn't suggest studying them with less frequency, since the golden rules is "little but often, and not a lot but occasionally", but rather cut on the intensity and duration of those sessions. And like somebody brought up already, Latin is really one of those areas you don't need to hurry with, so it's even easier.

 

I never thought I'd consider cutting out Latin, but for some differently-abled children--is it better to teach to their strengths?

In my opinion, and my opinion only: ABSOLUTELY NO.

I am VERY against indulging children, their current fits, or taking into account too much their talents. Of course that I will not dwell over things my children dislike on purpose, however, I do think a well-rounded education is something they need, and whether they like it or not, they will have to cope with some things that interest them less.

 

Also, note the thing that children's interests CHANGE over time. Another reason not to indulge them too much - what if one day they will WANT to have learned some things as children, to have better background in something?

 

Only my two cents though. I realize mine is probably not a mainstream view on these boards.

[buddhabelly]

Hello,

 

My ds is 10 years old. He just started Latin Prep this year after completing Latin for Children A, B & C. My two cents is that you should drop grammar. All the decent Latin programs (including the two mentioned above) teach grammar very clearly. Much grammar is impossible to teach in the English language, anyway. For example, in Latin one learns to put nouns of possession in the genitive case. (John's book - put John in the genitive.) That kind of grammar is actually easier to learn in Latin or Spanish (Spanish would be "el libro de Juan"). When diagramming a sentence that begins "John's book....fell off the table," American kids might assume that John is the subject of the sentence. Nope, it's "book", with "John's" being an adjective that points out "which one."

 

Do you have the book Latin-Centered Curriculum? Their suggested schedules for 6th graders (is your son in 6th grade?) do include science. If you chose something less time-consuming than Classical Writing for your language arts, I would think you would have time for science. Also, you mentioned the three R's. Well, one of those (that actually does begin with R, snort!) is reading. Your son could spend time reading science books, such as Hakim's wonderful series on the history of science. Then for writing, he could choose a scientist or a topic to write a few paragraphs about. My son wrote a paper on Tesla recently.

 

I do think that Latin develops the brain wonderfully. It makes mine tingle.

 

Julie

 

I'm 1000% sold on Classical Education and the benefits of Latin. I agree that it builds logical thinking in a way no other language can, that it prepares one to learn all the romance languages more easily, helps with English Grammar, helps with vocab on the SAT, gives one greater accessibility to the original classics...and so on. I am a HUGE believer in a Latin Centered Curriculum--in theory.

 

In our case, we've been working on it for 3 years (a lighter load for Elementary School) and we're digging DEEP (much deeper than I'd like) into English Grammar so that we'll be prepared for moving into 4 years of more rigorous Latin in middle school and first 2 years of HS. The following 2 years were left to learn Spanish.

 

I'm coming to terms with the fact that for our oldest, we are going to have to scale down/refocus our priorities due to a puzzling combination of learning disabilities and giftedness. Reading the previous thread about the Science/Math focused homeschool really sharpened my perspective on this. We've almost given up science completely, due to the demands of keeping up with the memory work, 3 R's and Latin. So my son's passion, Science--has been completely squeezed out of the picture to keep up with my idea of a good classical education.

 

At some point, is it reasonable to determine that the time invested in Latin might be better spent for a particular child on another subject? In our case, slow processing speed and ADD issues are so severe that we just can't fit it all in. It is made even more confusing by the fact that he is a really bright child who is academically capable of so much more than he can actually produce.

 

I never thought I'd consider cutting out Latin, but for some differently-abled children--is it better to teach to their strengths? He's actually pretty good with Latin, and doesn't mind doing it--but there just aren't enough hours in the day or years left in our nest.

 

Thanks in advance for any feedback--I'm wondering if other people have had to make this decision. I don't want to feel like I'm 'selling out' Classical Education---but if Latin doesn't go, what else can?

 

Thank you, thank you, thank you for sharing your thoughts!:)

Edited October 10, 2009 by buddhabelly
grade-level assumption

[homeschoolally]

everyone for your thoughts!

Will answer the specific ?'s tonight-walking out the door now.

I really appreciate the help!

[chanda7]

Can you give some more detailed information about what your schedule looks like, your subjects and how much time spent on each? Maybe we can find somewhere to cut corners? ;)

[EKS]

We gave up Latin this year with my older son. I gave him half a credit on his transcript for "Introduction to Latin" and we moved on to Spanish. I am planning to do two years of Spanish over four years, which will leave one year if he wants credit for a third year.

 

My son is also 2E and I need to be sure to focus our/his energy where it really matters.

[MOM24WONDERS]

Ok, I'm gonna play the lone ranger here ;) I say toss it if it isn't working. I've been homeschooling a LONG time and it took me a good while to get to that point - but I'm SO there. My oldest is not a literature-based/classical/whatever kind of kid. I've tried to force that mold on him for a long time and it NEVER worked. He likes and learns best from textbooks. It's his bent and I'm tired of trying to bend him elsewhere, so to speak.

 

I would never let my kids give up one of the core subjects (math, english, etc), but Latin? Yeah. We'd move on. I just don't see it as being that important - especially if it's not benefiting the child. Now, whether it is beneficial or not is up to you and your son - only you know that.

 

Personally, there is a freedom like no other when you can just accept your kids for who they are. For me, it meant giving up MY way and letting him be the way God made him. Not as easy as it sounds! However, our lives have been so much easier and filled with joy since we did. I won't ever go back!

 

Another thing that helps? Stop listening to others tell you what is best for your child. They can't possibly know! Only you, your husband, and your child know what is best - and that may or may not include Latin :) Everyone has their ideas about what is the best education - and if it works for their family, I say GREAT! But that has absolutely no bearing on my family and what works for us.

 

Take for example, Apologia Sciences - my son did Bio with it last year and did wonderful - fastforward to Chemistry this year and Physical Science for my oldest dd and it was a nightmare. It was not a good fit for either of them. When I started asking around, I was told that I should press on, don't give up, Apologia is so superior, blah, blah, blah. Dh and I just went to our knees in prayer - we had thought that Apologia was the answer for us - it's the best, right? I had spent so much time listening to what others told me was best that I had forgotten to listen to what God said - and to see my children's bent. I just turned it over to God and He released me from feeling inferior because we chose something else.

 

The bottom line is this - DO WHAT WORKS FOR YOUR CHILD. It really doesn't matter what anyone else says or thinks. If in doing best for your child, you want to toss Latin - I say do it, quickly :) It's really not THAT important.

[BabyBre]

No, not Latin. Ds16 was home for only four years (5th-8th grade), and Latin was by far the most beneficial thing we did.

 

It's hard to squeeze it into afterschooling, but my dc are still young (2nd & 3rd grades), so I'm going to figure out more time for Latin next year. This year, we're just still taking it very slow - only 15-30 minutes per week.

 

I would never cut it out. Almost every week, my dc come home from ps relating some story of how they knew something that no one else in their classes knew because we learned it in Latin. It gives them an edge.

[homeschoolally]

Off the top of my head..... is the grammar needed for Latin, not lightening his "grammar" load? Where is he in Latin? For me, I consider it "Logic" of a sort, too. And, of course, I suppose it's "Where is he in Latin?"

Also, is he in 7th this year?

 

Carrie:-)

 

This is the first time I've replied with 'quotes' so I hope I got it right!

We are still in the grammar phase of latin--just memorizing declensions, some sections of the Vulgate, vocab etc. We've also dabbled in "Latin's not so Tough" but haven't been very committed to it. He is in 6th grade this year.

 

The current time drainer is the Essentials Grammar program we use through Classical Conversations. I'm only making him work so hard in it because he will be expected to do Latin Grammar in the same fashion from 7th-10th grade. It is far more in depth than he will need to do well on the SAT, (I'm often using that as a measure these days to evaluate our curriculum choices) I find myself thinking, 'Why are we spending all this time memorizing a dozen types of pronouns?' or 'Who really needs to know THIS much about verbs?' Apparently it is 'essential' to doing Latin their way in the years to come. So thats how it would lighten our load now--by relaxing about this English Grammar program and mastering about 75% of it--which is definitely enough to cover all our bases outside of the Latin world.

 

I'm hearing from other families that the middle school Latin he will be doing takes their kids a half hour to 45 min a day . That would translate into well over an hour for my son because of his learning disability. I guess I should have been more specific that I'm also thinking about the long term time savings we'd get from dropping Latin--although we could breathe easier if we could lay off some of the English Grammar now.

 

Thanks again for all the replies--I'm talking to my husband about it now--and hearing this input was very helpful. I agree that maybe I don't need to drop Latin totally, but just let him get what he can out of it without making a huge time investment in it and stressing out over it!

Edited October 12, 2009 by homeschoolally
added He is in 6th grade this year

[homeschoolally]

No, not Latin. Ds16 was home for only four years (5th-8th grade), and Latin was by far the most beneficial thing we did.

 

It's hard to squeeze it into afterschooling, but my dc are still young (2nd & 3rd grades), so I'm going to figure out more time for Latin next year. This year, we're just still taking it very slow - only 15-30 minutes per week.

 

I would never cut it out. Almost every week, my dc come home from ps relating some story of how they knew something that no one else in their classes knew because we learned it in Latin. It gives them an edge.

 

Thanks so much for sharing this. Do you mind sharing how much Latin they mastered to get to this point--I guess I'm wondering how much curriculum you got through and which one. I'm considering just stretching it out over a longer time period and relaxing a bit about absolute perfection in it.

 

Thanks again!

[homeschoolally]

Ok, I'm gonna play the lone ranger here ;) I say toss it if it isn't working. I've been homeschooling a LONG time and it took me a good while to get to that point - but I'm SO there. My oldest is not a literature-based/classical/whatever kind of kid. I've tried to force that mold on him for a long time and it NEVER worked. He likes and learns best from textbooks. It's his bent and I'm tired of trying to bend him elsewhere, so to speak.

 

I would never let my kids give up one of the core subjects (math, english, etc), but Latin? Yeah. We'd move on. I just don't see it as being that important - especially if it's not benefiting the child. Now, whether it is beneficial or not is up to you and your son - only you know that.

 

Personally, there is a freedom like no other when you can just accept your kids for who they are. For me, it meant giving up MY way and letting him be the way God made him. Not as easy as it sounds! However, our lives have been so much easier and filled with joy since we did. I won't ever go back!

 

Another thing that helps? Stop listening to others tell you what is best for your child. They can't possibly know! Only you, your husband, and your child know what is best - and that may or may not include Latin :) Everyone has their ideas about what is the best education - and if it works for their family, I say GREAT! But that has absolutely no bearing on my family and what works for us.

 

Take for example, Apologia Sciences - my son did Bio with it last year and did wonderful - fastforward to Chemistry this year and Physical Science for my oldest dd and it was a nightmare. It was not a good fit for either of them. When I started asking around, I was told that I should press on, don't give up, Apologia is so superior, blah, blah, blah. Dh and I just went to our knees in prayer - we had thought that Apologia was the answer for us - it's the best, right? I had spent so much time listening to what others told me was best that I had forgotten to listen to what God said - and to see my children's bent. I just turned it over to God and He released me from feeling inferior because we chose something else.

 

The bottom line is this - DO WHAT WORKS FOR YOUR CHILD. It really doesn't matter what anyone else says or thinks. If in doing best for your child, you want to toss Latin - I say do it, quickly :) It's really not THAT important.

:) Thank you so much for taking the time to share this. I'm finding that I need to take that attitude in much more than Latin these days. Theres a lot of reevaluation going on in our homeschool and your words are very encouraging. Thank you!!!!!!!!!

[MOM24WONDERS]

:) Thank you so much for taking the time to share this. I'm finding that I need to take that attitude in much more than Latin these days. Theres a lot of reevaluation going on in our homeschool and your words are very encouraging. Thank you!!!!!!!!!

 

 

You are so very welcome :) I'm glad that someone took the time to share this with me on a particularly weary day. It has changed our lives. Now when someone says, "Oh, you're using THAT?" or "You gave up on xyz?" , I just smile and move on. I simply have no time for others negativity...haha

 

It really does change things when you can just stop caring what everyone else thinks, LOL :lol:

[homeschoolally]

We gave up Latin this year with my older son. I gave him half a credit on his transcript for "Introduction to Latin" and we moved on to Spanish. I am planning to do two years of Spanish over four years, which will leave one year if he wants credit for a third year.

 

My son is also 2E and I need to be sure to focus our/his energy where it really matters.

 

I agree that those of us with 2Exeptional kids need to focus our energies much differently than the average homeschooler. LOTS more difficult decisions to make IMO. Much higher stakes if we choose the wrong path. I wish there was a classical 2E support group or book or something! I've found classical ed plays to my son's strengths in many ways, but I'm realizing I need to be more flexible about it following it to the letter than I would be if my son was 'typical'--or whatever I'd call it. I continually find myself trying to balance challenging him academically, which I know Classical Ed does--and being careful not to push him too hard with deadlines and long assignments--which are inevitable in any rigorous homeschool program.

Thanks for sharing this!!

[homeschoolally]

...it probably makes him feel competent. QUOTE]

That is a great point I hadn't considered at all. Thanks for your input!

[katilac]

Yes, if he's actually pretty good at it, I'd be very inclined to keep it.

 

As far as science being a passion of his, Latin will support that interest (vocabulary, attention to detail), and, at this point in his schooling, it's something he can pursue on his own, rather than during 'official' school time. Edited to make it clear that science can be pursued on his own. I'd certainly buy him tons of science books, dvds and kits! That way, he still has the opportunity to dig into his interests, but it's in a low-pressure way. Formal science seems like it would be fairly difficult if he's struggling in the reading/writing areas, especially as he's moving into the logic stage.

 

I agree with the Latin Centered Curriculum on that - - just b/c something is not done within the formal school curriculum, doesn't mean it isn't done or that the child isn't exposed to it. Actually, I see a more informal, student-driven science to be potentially an ideal fit for a smart, ADD 12 yr old.

 

Can you possibly have an extremely focused, teacher intensive morning that focuses on the 3 r's and Latin? And independent study in the afternoon? Look for the point of diminishing return - - is he getting 80% of his work done in the first two hours? Don't keep working for another five hours to get that next 20%; it's not, imo, worth it, and you want him to get in the habit of focused work.

[midwestbelle]

The current time drainer is the Essentials Grammar program we use through Classical Conversations. I'm only making him work so hard in it because he will be expected to do Latin Grammar in the same fashion from 7th-10th grade. It is far more in depth than he will need to do well on the SAT, (I'm often using that as a measure these days to evaluate our curriculum choices) I find myself thinking, 'Why are we spending all this time memorizing a dozen types of pronouns?' or 'Who really needs to know THIS much about verbs?' Apparently it is 'essential' to doing Latin their way in the years to come. So thats how it would lighten our load now--by relaxing about this English Grammar program and mastering about 75% of it--which is definitely enough to cover all our bases outside of the Latin world.

 

I'm hearing from other families that the middle school Latin he will be doing takes their kids a half hour to 45 min a day . That would translate into well over an hour for my son because of his learning disability. I guess I should have been more specific that I'm also thinking about the long term time savings we'd get from dropping Latin--although we could breathe easier if we could lay off some of the English Grammar now.

 

 

 

I'm doing Essentials with my 4th grade girls now and it is very intense and a lot of work. Have you talked with your Essentials tutor or program director about this? The tutor gives assignments each week but it is totally up to you, the mother and teacher, on how much to cover at home. I would back down on the mastery charts and memory work and maybe do the task sheets orally or on the white board with you depending on what difficulities your DS is having. You can skip task 5 and 6 completely. How many weeks are you into the program? I think it was really designed to be mastered over a 3 year period and anything you get in one year is still a lot of grammar.

 

I assume you were referring to the Challenge program for grade 7 and up. They use Latin's Not So Tough books 3 and 4 in challenge A and do not assume any previous exosure to Latin except the Foundations memory work - so if you dropped Latin at home and just worked on the declensions each week I think you would be OK.

[homeschoolally]

I'm doing Essentials with my 4th grade girls now and it is very intense and a lot of work. Have you talked with your Essentials tutor or program director about this? The tutor gives assignments each week but it is totally up to you, the mother and teacher, on how much to cover at home. I would back down on the mastery charts and memory work and maybe do the task sheets orally or on the white board with you depending on what difficulities your DS is having. You can skip task 5 and 6 completely. How many weeks are you into the program? I think it was really designed to be mastered over a 3 year period and anything you get in one year is still a lot of grammar.

 

I assume you were referring to the Challenge program for grade 7 and up. They use Latin's Not So Tough books 3 and 4 in challenge A and do not assume any previous exosure to Latin except the Foundations memory work - so if you dropped Latin at home and just worked on the declensions each week I think you would be OK.

 

I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one who thinks Essentials is tough! we're so bogged down with it because I didn't spread it out over 3 years like you're supposed to. I didn't think my son was capable of handling it previously, so now we have to tackle it all in one year. He needs all the help he can get, and I want him to have all the same tools under his belt that the other kids do--so we're trying to cram it all down in one big gulp. I really regret not giving it at least 2 years! We are in week 7 now.

Good point about their expectations about previous Latin exposure--we've got the declensions down pat and I heard that was the biggest help for Challenge A. Have you heard anything about how necessary all this deep English Grammar is for Challenge Latin? All I hear in our group is that it is "Essential!" Also, are you hearing that kids spend 30-45 minutes a day in Challenge Latin at your group? Just curious.

I'd love to know if there are some things we could back off on--

Thanks for answering!

[Terabith]

Do you have to do the CC Challenge program? That just really doesn't sound like the best choice for a 2E kid.

 

I think, if he's good at Latin, it's silly to drop it, but I would definitely cut down on the English grammar at this point. You don't have to master it all. Do what YOU think is useful and good, and forget the rest. Do some Latin, but don't feel obligated to do it to a certain level. But, you know, if he wasn't good at Latin, I don't think you are obligated to include it. Your kid is your kid, and you work with what is good for him.

 

But, you need to find a way to include science, if that's his passion. Or even if it's not his passion. Science is an important part of education, one that I think many classical approaches do not take seriously enough. It makes no sense to drag a kid through the extremely tough demands of Classical Conversations while totally eliminating the areas of his passion.

[tex-mex]

Haven't read all the replies... but we dropped latin. Son has working memory issues and memorizing is really hard for him. It was torture. I love Latin! But just isn't son's cup of tea. We do lots of math and science, btw.

[homeschoolally]

for all the input.

=)

I relaxed today and only worried about half of the mind-boggling types of conjunctions in our grammar lesson today!

 

Appreciate everyone's time.