What do you do about English spelling?

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

I'm always bothered (well slightly, not too much) that we don't do an English spelling program. First, it does not fit in our schedule, second the kids don't seem to need it!

 

They will stumble over some common English words, but when I picked Spelling Power,the kids did well on the placement test. But what bothers me the most is that the more advanced words are exactly like French! So if you know French, you can skip spelling? That's not true, there are plenty of difficult words that don't come from French.

 

So now I'm thinking that maybe Spelling Power isn't appropriate for us, since we're French speakers. I'm looking for a resource that would have the non-French words, relatively common English words, like 'twine', or the past form of verbs ("wrought' comes to mind, my kids would write 'rot' )

 

Any suggestion? Oh, and Canadian spelling is much preferred!

[Laura Corin]

Calvin (natural speller) is just working through lists of commonly-misspelled words. The one he uses are present is from Schott's Miscellany, but there are a lot online.

 

Laura

[Sahamamama]

http://www.amazon.com/ABCs-All-Their-Tricks/dp/0880621494

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

I don't think it will. My kids don't know phonics at all, and neither do I. When you can read one language that uses the Roman alphabet it takes about two days to transfer to another language. I was never taught phonics in school, and my kids have never needed it! I gave my son one of the Magic TreeHouse book and an audio tape of the same book. We listened to it while looking at the words, and voilà, he was a fluent English reader.

 

This is so true that local English schools have the kids in French immersion in grades 1 to 3, then never teach them phonics ;-) By grade 4, the kids read in two languages as easily as those educated in just one!

 

I'm finding more and more that bilingual kids don't have the same English spelling problems as the 'rest of the kids'. At least French speaking kids don't. I'd love to find a ressource meant for those kids, but I'm coming up empty handed.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Calvin (natural speller) is just working through lists of commonly-misspelled words. The one he uses are present is from Schott's Miscellany, but there are a lot online.

 

Laura

 

Hi Laura

 

I'm looking at this list here http://www.esldesk.com/vocabulary/misspelled-words (first list that Google returned)

So many of these words simply follow French spelling rules, and are no problem for French kids. Or they have a small variation, like a 'y' at the end instead of 'ie'.

 

A word like "perseverance " is exactly like its French version, and French pronunciation will give you the spelling.

 

There are a few words that are relevant though, "wholly" is in the list, for example.

[Renai]

I'm finding more and more that bilingual kids don't have the same English spelling problems as the 'rest of the kids'. At least French speaking kids don't. I'd love to find a ressource meant for those kids, but I'm coming up empty handed.

 

I would have to say that depends on the kid. As you know, my dd was raised completely bilingual in Spanish in English, with me teaching her Spanish reading first. Her English spelling is atrocious, and Spanish saves her since it is so much more phonetic (she still gets some wrong though). But, she has dyslexia, so we use a very specific English program that gives her rules (she was asking for rules anyway). I'm creating my own program for her Spanish.

 

Since your children seem to be natural spellers of English, do what the rest of native English parents do- practically nothing :D. Keep them in good English literature and maybe just work on those commonly misspelled words. I guess I'm in the camp that says, "If it ain't broke, there's nothing to fix!"

 

I was a voracious reader and natural speller myself, so didn't need a spelling program either. It is completely foreign to me to have this child that can't spell :tongue_smilie:. But, some kids just don't need to do spelling. So, don't worry about it :D.

[Nan in Mass]

Neither of which might be helpful... but...

 

You could search the internet for lists of English "sight words". These are words that don't follow simple phonics rules so children learn to read them by memorizing what they look like (sight) rather than sounding them out. In the end, of course, all good readers recognize all the words by sight, but most early English readers sound words out, hence the lists.

 

(What they really probably need is to memorize and apply spelling rules, but I doubt this would be a practical approach. That would tell them when to use c or k or ck or cc or q when they hear a q sound.)

 

My other idea is to look on the Singapore math site at their spelling book. It is meant for bilingual children who are stronger in a language other than English.

 

-Nan

[Ester Maria]

I'm finding more and more that bilingual kids don't have the same English spelling problems as the 'rest of the kids'. At least French speaking kids don't. I'd love to find a ressource meant for those kids, but I'm coming up empty handed.

My daughters spell English better than me. :D They're raised completely bilingually (Italian/English) with moderate exposure to the third language (Hebrew), and they never had struggles with spelling either language.

I also noticed that bilingual kids seem to, past the initial stagnation, actually function better with both languages, but it may as well be only my observation.

 

Ontopic, I never taught phonics, it just wasn't needed. They learned to read Italian first, and then just got used to English along the way. We did formally go through the commonly misspelled words, though, as a part of our language studies, but really, nothing more than that. And they're fine.

[Renai]

I also noticed that bilingual kids seem to, past the initial stagnation, actually function better with both languages, but it may as well be only my observation.

 

This is not just your observation, but supported by many studies on children in schools with dual language programs. Not only do they do better in both languages, by around the 6th or 7th grade, they do better than their monolingual peers in many areas, not just language arts.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Ah, here's an example of my problem today. DD9 placed in 4th grade, almost 5th grade according to Spelling Power. Yet today, she mispelled 'poket' (pocket)

She's missing out on easy (relatively) spelling words, but she gets the complex ones.

[Nan in Mass]

Cleo, I still think that if whenever she spells a word wrong, you explain the English spelling rule, she might slowly improve. It would be easier than trying to figure out which weird English words she can't spell. The rule for c/k/cc/ck is pretty easy, once you understand it. Default - use c. But c is pronounced s in front of i, e, or y, so in front of those vowels you have to use a k. And a single consonant between two vowels makes the first vowel long (rather than short as in p-o-cket), so to make a vowel short, you have to double the consonant, using cc or ck (depending on the second vowel). And lastly, one syllable English words don't end in a single c or k (except really weird ones like yak), so if the word is one syllable and ends in a c sound, you use ck. She's probably smart enough that once the pattern is pointed out to her, she will improve. She probably won't improve instantly (because one doesn't usually think much about spelling as one is writing), but she will gradually improve. Mine have, anyway. Mine learned to read with phonics (two elaborate school phonics, one very brief phonics with me), could within a few days of exposure read French and Latin with no problem (and no phonics), and STILL couldn't spell well in English. Spelling rules, not phonics, helped mine learn to spell. They still aren't great, but they are a good deal better than they were. Bad spelling runs in our family.

-Nan

Edited October 16, 2009 by Nan in Mass

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Thanks Nan for the rule. I didn't even know it myself. I'm a natural speller, I guess. I was never exposed to English phonics and neither have my kids. I guess I have to introduce the concept of long and short vowels. That concept doesn't exist in French. We have open and close vowels, but it's pretty different, I assume.

 

Any recommendation for a book that would really deal with rules? Spelling Power has disappointed me in that way. I couldn't even understand the rules they were stating!

[Nan in Mass]

Cleo, I think what you want is this: http://www.dyslexia.org/spelling_rules.shtml

Remember when I was asking for French spelling rules? I was looking for the French equivalent of this.

Definately teach short and long vowels (it is covered nicely on this site). A large part of the spelling rules for English have to do with keeping the vowels long or short. If only we had accents!!!! Grrrrrrr. Anyway, this should work nicely. It is short so you can print it out. If you need something more complete, check out the Singapore spelling book or the ABC and all their tricks (or whatever it is called) one. This isn't the same as phonics. I totally agree that you don't need phonics at this stage. What you need is general rules and good enough pronounciation that you can hear what you need to spell.

HTH

-Nan

[Mabelen]

I think I should just stop reading these boards, you guys are messing me up big time! :-)

 

You know, I was raised monolingual in Spain so I obviously learned to read in Spanish first, and of course we did it by learning our letters and syllable combinations, ba, be, bi, bo, bu... etc. This makes perfect sense in Spanish because it is highly phonetic, more so even than French. The rules are simple and there are very few exceptions.

 

Now, I am raising my two children bilingually, but once they reached school age their English became stronger than their Spanish. I didn't have to worry about reading with my oldest because she did learn by herself, first in English then in Spanish *or so I think, maybe she was reading in Spanish at the same time but I can't be sure she wasn't just memorizing the books we had, all I know is when we went to Spain at just turned 4 she could read with ease all the book titles at the book store, so that's when I learned she was already reading in Spanish*.

 

My youngest, who is now 5 1/2 is reading cvc words with ease, she knows common consonant blends like sh, ch etc. and she is tackling multisyllable words with help. She is in public school Kindergarten and I don't like some of the strategies they are using, such as relying on picture clues to guess at the right word... So I decided I need to teach her myself to combat those nasty little habits. I have been searching the boards trying to find the right way to teach her. She seems to enjoy writing more than reading, so I considered AAS. I also got Reading Reflex from the library and I really like this approach, so I am also considering Abecedarian because it's ready to go and I know I need that or else nothing will get done! But now you guys are making me rethink all of this... Should I drop my English phonics plans? Should I get her reading in Spanish? Will this be enough to combat the public school influence? Will this be effective for a kid who is not a balanced bilingual, whose English is stronger than her Spanish? Agghh, what to do? Will you pretty please help me?

[Matryoshka]

also got Reading Reflex from the library and I really like this approach, so I am also considering Abecedarian because it's ready to go and I know I need that or else nothing will get done! Should I drop my English phonics plans? Should I get her reading in Spanish? Will this be enough to combat the public school influence? Will this be effective for a kid who is not a balanced bilingual, whose English is stronger than her Spanish? Agghh, what to do? Will you pretty please help me?

 

I used Reading Reflex to teach all of my kids to read. The method and terminology taught in there is perfect for multilingual teaching. When we got to German, I'd just say, the German sound picture for /sh/ is "sch". Or the German sound picture for /oi/ is "eu".

 

Spanish though is even easier - heck there are no multi-letter phonemes at all (being that ch, ll and rr are considered letters in their own right). The vowels all have just one sound, and when there are two vowels, you blend. You can sound everything out perfectly phonetically! I just told the kids what sound each Spanish letter represented, and then they blended. Perfect every time.

 

I would very much recommend Reading Reflex. I think it might be a good idea to learn English decoding first, as it's a lot harder. Once my kids understood phonetic decoding in English, showing them how to read Spanish took almost no time at all. In fact, only about as long as it took to tell them what letter went with what sound (your dd will already know the sounds from speaking - you'd just have to show her the correspondence). Going from Spanish to English reading would be a bit harder because English makes so much less sense! :tongue_smilie:

[Renai]

That concept doesn't exist in French. We have open and close vowels, but it's pretty different, I assume.

 

 

The open and closed vowels is related to long and short in English (I'm learning this in All About Spelling, which your children definitely do not need!). If it is a closed vowel, it is usually short. An open vowel is usually long.

 

And Nan mentioned something that is so true that I hadn't thought of: phonics and spelling rules have different purposes. She stated she used phonics for reading and rules for spelling. I've done phonics with my daughter, but she's been able to decode just about *anything,* even though I haven't taught her the extent of phonics rules. I gave her a rapid-reading test and she was decoding words up to an 8th grade level :blink: [insert shock here] before she became frustrated. I told her she was doing fine, but she was tired and stopped. But her spelling is bad, so I got a rules-based (what she asked for) spelling program (but also multisensory since she also has dyslexia-it showed in both languages).

 

I knew there was a reason I wasn't focusing on phonics this year, sheesh. Sometimes I fall into doing the right thing, and figure out it's right later.

[Renai]

Cleo, I still think that if whenever she spells a word wrong, you explain the English spelling rule, she might slowly improve. It would be easier than trying to figure out which weird English words she can't spell.

:iagree:

 

The rule for c/k/cc/ck is pretty easy, once you understand it. Default - use c. But c is pronounced s in front of i, e, or y, so in front of those vowels you have to use a k. And a single consonant between two vowels makes the first vowel long (rather than short as in p-o-cket), so to make a vowel short, you have to double the consonant, using cc or ck (depending on the second vowel). And lastly, one syllable English words don't end in a single c or k (except really weird ones like yak), so if the word is one syllable and ends in a c sound, you use ck.

-Nan

 

I wanted to mention this rule, but then got stuck on an exception: soccer. Where the heck does that fit? And it's important everywhere in the world except the US :lol:. just kidding

 

Cleo, I think what you want is this: http://www.dyslexia.org/spelling_rules.shtml

 

Nice, brief summary. But, where does soccer fit?! :tongue_smilie:

 

This isn't the same as phonics. I totally agree that you don't need phonics at this stage. What you need is general rules and good enough pronounciation that you can hear what you need to spell.

HTH

-Nan

 

:iagree:

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

And it's important everywhere in the world except the US :lol:. just kidding

 

Well, not really. Everywhere else in the world, it's called football.

Edited October 17, 2009 by CleoQc

[Renai]

Well, not really. Everywhere else in the world, it's called football.

 

Ha! I was on chat the other day (Mexico vs Trinidad y Tobago for World Cup eliminations), and I had to correct someone else about that too :tongue_smilie:.

[Mabelen]

I used Reading Reflex to teach all of my kids to read. The method and terminology taught in there is perfect for multilingual teaching. When we got to German, I'd just say, the German sound picture for /sh/ is "sch". Or the German sound picture for /oi/ is "eu".

 

Spanish though is even easier - heck there are no multi-letter phonemes at all (being that ch, ll and rr are considered letters in their own right). The vowels all have just one sound, and when there are two vowels, you blend. You can sound everything out perfectly phonetically! I just told the kids what sound each Spanish letter represented, and then they blended. Perfect every time.

 

I would very much recommend Reading Reflex. I think it might be a good idea to learn English decoding first, as it's a lot harder. Once my kids understood phonetic decoding in English, showing them how to read Spanish took almost no time at all. In fact, only about as long as it took to tell them what letter went with what sound (your dd will already know the sounds from speaking - you'd just have to show her the correspondence). Going from Spanish to English reading would be a bit harder because English makes so much less sense! :tongue_smilie:

 

I think I will do that. First English, then Spanish... I need to assess my daughter for placement and get started asap. Thank you for your opinion.

[C_l_e_0..Q_c]

Going from Spanish to English reading would be a bit harder because English makes so much less sense! :tongue_smilie:

 

That's where my observations tell me this is wrong. I know a family that did just that. Got the kids in school in Spanish immersion (in California). They learned to read in Spanish. English took no time at all, and neither did French.

 

The local English schools here have mostly French immersion. Most English kids learn to read French first, even if they don't speak the language yet! Then the school switches all the kids to English in grade 3 or 4, depending on the school, and voilà, they read English with ease.

 

For my own son, it took one Magic Tree House on tape and book, and we sat down on the couch, decoding English while the tape was playing. That means I was pointing the words being said. No explanation whatsoever. And after the book, he picked up the following one and read it. It took all of 20 minutes for him to read English.

 

Something similar happened to my daughter, but she was playing on Webkinz. My son pointed out a few words, over the course of several days, just a few minutes per day. And she was done. She could read English books after that.

[Renai]

That's where my observations tell me this is wrong. I know a family that did just that. Got the kids in school in Spanish immersion (in California). They learned to read in Spanish. English took no time at all, and neither did French.

 

:iagree:There are many studies that back up your observations. I haven't seen a limit on which language children start with. (barring learning disabilities) Reading abilities readily transfer from one language to another (I feel like a broken record).

 

Last year, I had started tutoring a Spanish-speaking (public-schooled) 2nd grade child in English. She was already at a high level of reading in her first language (reading chapter books at the beginning of the year). She picked up English and English reading like wildfire! Unfortunately, her mother didn't want her to continue.

 

Most of the students I tutor come from Spanish-speaking backgrounds. The only problems I've seen really are spelling (similar to what you're experiencing with your children), and comprehension related to a vocabulary gap. Their reading is fine. Like I mentioned before, my daughter did an assessment a couple of weeks ago and was able to decode words up to 8th grade level before getting really frustrated, without knowing half the phonics rules. Her problem is spelling, but is related to her dyslexia.

[Mabelen]

I think in my particular case it makes more sense at this point to proceed with phonics instruction in English. She is already in an English medium classroom where she is being taught to read with a balanced literacy approach. I think furthering her English reading skills with phonics instruction at this point will help her realize that she does not need to depend on looking at the picture or at the initial and final letters only to read a word! If she was being homeschooled or if she was in a Spanish immersion classroom then Spanish first would probably be the way to go though!

[Renai]

I think in my particular case it makes more sense at this point to proceed with phonics instruction in English. She is already in an English medium classroom where she is being taught to read with a balanced literacy approach. I think furthering her English reading skills with phonics instruction at this point will help her realize that she does not need to depend on looking at the picture or at the initial and final letters only to read a word! If she was being homeschooled or if she was in a Spanish immersion classroom then Spanish first would probably be the way to go though!

 

I'm currently student teaching in a first English classroom that uses the balanced literacy approach. Yes, please, teach your child phonics :001_huh:. I'm do what I'm doing because I'm in another teacher's classroom and I have to :glare:. I can't stand it! I throw in phonics mini lessons every time I have the opportunity. I hate to see children with no concept of print pretending to read by guessing, looking at pictures, and forgetting there's letters in between the initial and final letters (the lowest level 1st graders are like that). So I get you. But, that's neither here nor there (I can go on and on on... :tongue_smilie:). The point though, is to become fluent in one language and move to the next. Since your daughter is already in English, it does make a heap of sense to continue it and add on Spanish. The switch to Spanish will be easy. Some children are even taught more than one simultaneously, but I have no info about that.

 

Everyone's situation is different. In general, reading ability will transfer readily from one language to another. Just learn to read well in that first language first (I can tell stories all night about the children I tutor, but I'll spare you :lol:).

[Sara R]

balanced literacy approach

 

I've been helping in 1st grade dd's classroom, so I've found out first hand what "balanced literacy" means. I got trained as a tutor for this program. The phonics component of the program never even taught that silent e makes the sound long (sam/same, cap/cape). That's so basic! They could learn to read better by just watching Electric Company reruns rather than go to reading tutoring.