Jewish faith question-Would someone be able to explain to me as simply as possible

[WishboneDawn]

That makes about as much sense as saying someone that practices Buddhism, Wicca, or is Muslim makes Christian traditions inauthentic. What another person's faith is does not invalidate someone else's in their heart, mind, soul.

 

But neither does what is in someone's heart, mind and soul justify every practice or claim in their religion.

 

Imagine a Muslim group performing Christian ceremonies like communion and baptism but claiming they were truly meant to celebrate Jesus as prophet and perhaps to emphasize in fact that he wasn't the son of God...And then calling themselves Christians to boot.

 

Might Christians not get justifiably insulted? That group would be using the name of Christianity and it's most sacred rituals to deny the core tenet of the Christian faith.

 

Judaism is not pre-Christianity or Christianity Lite. It has very different beliefs, often contradictory, that are expressed in it's rituals. Using those rituals in an essentially Christian faith turns what they've represented for thousands of years on it's head.

 

Keep in mind that this isn't happening in a vaccuum. There's a couple of thousand years of history where Jewish people have often been subject to Christian anti-semitism ranging from discrimination to violence. Christians have also spent two thousand years claiming the OT, an essentially Hebrew book, is theirs and should be interpreted through a Christian lens.

[Cammie]

Judaism is not pre-Christianity or Christianity Lite.

 

 

 

After just reading this entire thread - I think this is the clearest response regarding the offense taken by Jews to the MJ movement.

 

Thank you.

[Ibbygirl]

Would you stretch it to a "believer in the Christian faith"?

 

Bill

 

Yes I would, because that is what the term has come to mean and is understood to mean ie. a "Christian" is a follower of Christ and Christ's teachings, but I think the meaning "Christ-like" has more profound implications that should not be so easily swept aside. One of the radical differences between Judaism and Christianity is in the role of the Holy Spirit. Before Christ the "Spirit of the Lord" came "upon" the Jews as in the case of the Prophets or Samson for example. But Jesus was "indwelled" with the Spirit and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by Satan for example.

 

John the Baptist prophesied that the Messiah would baptise with "the Holy Spirit and with fire". The day of Pentecost Jesus' followers were baptized (indwelled) with the Holy Spirit and prophesied and spoke in foreign tongues etc. This is a major distinction between Judaism and Christianity. For the first time a follower could actually be indwelled by the very Spirit of God Himself the way that Christ was. A Christian could be "like Christ" because he/she had the same power available to them through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that Jesus did. John 14:12, 14:16-17

 

I think to say that "Christian" means merely a follower of Jesus or of His teachings seriously undermines the magnitude and of this teaching and the role of the Holy Spirit in the lives of "believers".

[WishboneDawn]

By the way, I don't need a definition of Jewish or Judaism. I AM Jewish. Sure, there is Jewish heritage, but Jews for Jesus or Messianic Jews are practicing the Christian RELIGION under the guise of Judaism. They say their version trumps Judaism. They aren't just hanging onto heritage.

Michelle T

 

Yup. I hang on to my heritage by listening to fiddle music and getting some clan tartan. I don't go around claiming I'm Scottish.

[Michelle T]

But neither does what is in someone's heart, mind and soul justify every practice or claim in their religion.

 

Imagine a Muslim group performing Christian ceremonies like communion and baptism but claiming they were truly meant to celebrate Jesus as prophet and perhaps to emphasize in fact that he wasn't the son of God...And then calling themselves Christians to boot.

 

Might Christians not get justifiably insulted? That group would be using the name of Christianity and it's most sacred rituals to deny the core tenet of the Christian faith.

 

Judaism is not pre-Christianity or Christianity Lite. It has very different beliefs, often contradictory, that are expressed in it's rituals. Using those rituals in an essentially Christian faith turns what they've represented for thousands of years on it's head.

 

Keep in mind that this isn't happening in a vaccuum. There's a couple of thousand years of history where Jewish people have often been subject to Christian anti-semitism ranging from discrimination to violence. Christians have also spent two thousand years claiming the OT, an essentially Hebrew book, is theirs and should be interpreted through a Christian lens.

 

 

 

You stated calmly what I was too angry to say. Christians always seem to think Judaism is just Christianity without Jesus. It's not. It's totally different. Celebrating a Jewish holiday doesn't make you Jewish. Being born Jewish, then converting to a different religion doesn't mean that you are still practicing Judaism. It means you are born Jewish, but are a different religion now.

Michelle T

[Aubrey]

You kind of dodged my questions.

 

Would you say Muslims are practicing a form of Christianity?

 

Bill

 

Me? No. But I didn't think we were putting the *faith* of the Jewish Christian/Christian Jew on trial. I thought we were defining terms.

 

If someone is practicing Judaism & believes in Jesus, what is the best term for that? Most Christians do not celebrate Passover or keep the Sabbath in the traditional sense. What should those who do, sincerely, call themselves?

[WishboneDawn]

You stated calmly what I was too angry to say. Christians always seem to think Judaism is just Christianity without Jesus. It's not. It's totally different. Celebrating a Jewish holiday doesn't make you Jewish. Being born Jewish, then converting to a different religion doesn't mean that you are still practicing Judaism. It means you are born Jewish, but are a different religion now.

Michelle T

 

Thank my EFM (Education for Ministry) course. We spend the first year reading the OT as the Hebrew Scriptures and learning about Judaism. It's made it quite clear that Judaism, Jesus and Christianity are some sort of divine fact family. :D

[Spy Car]

Yes I would, because that is what the term has come to mean and is understood to mean ie. a "Christian" is a follower of Christ and Christ's teachings, but I think the meaning "Christ-like" has more profound implications that should not be so easily swept aside. One of the radical differences between Judaism and Christianity is in the role of the Holy Spirit. Before Christ the "Spirit of the Lord" came "upon" the Jews as in the case of the Prophets or Samson for example. But Jesus was "indwelled" with the Spirit and was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by Satan for example.

 

John the Baptist prophesied that the Messiah would baptise with "the Holy Spirit and with fire". The day of Pentecost Jesus' followers were baptized (indwelled) with the Holy Spirit and prophesied and spoke in foreign tongues etc. This is a major distinction between Judaism and Christianity. For the first time a follower could actually be indwelled by the very Spirit of God Himself the way that Christ was. A Christian could be "like Christ" because he/she had the same power available to them through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that Jesus did. John 14:12, 14:16-17

 

I think to say that "Christian" means merely a follower of Jesus or of His teachings seriously undermines the magnitude and of this teaching and the role of the Holy Spirit in the lives of "believers".

 

I will try to be mindful of this, but I may use the term "Christian" for sake of expediency.

 

Bill

[Ibbygirl]

I will try to be mindful of this, but I may use the term "Christian" for sake of expediency.

 

Bill

 

 

As will I. ;)

[WishboneDawn]

Me? No. But I didn't think we were putting the *faith* of the Jewish Christian/Christian Jew on trial. I thought we were defining terms.

 

If someone is practicing Judaism & believes in Jesus, what is the best term for that? Most Christians do not celebrate Passover or keep the Sabbath in the traditional sense. What should those who do, sincerely, call themselves?

 

Jewish Christians? That makes some sort of sense. Jewish Christian and Christian Jew are NOT interchangeable terms. Even the suggestion that they are means denying the full meaning of what it is to be Jewish. That one is almost the other. A girlish boy is NOT the same thing as a boyish Girl and to say they are shows a misunderstanding of what at least one of the terms means.

 

Even then I'd wonder a bit at them. If they're celebrating those rituals devoid of the context of Jewish faith then either a) the ceremony is being changed to fit Christian faith and ends up denying it's original purpose and aim or b) it's being downgraded to a quaint tradition for the sake of heritage.

[WishboneDawn]

:iagree:

 

And to say someone has to give up their heritage because they accepted Christ is just terrible. You cannot take away someone's identity like that.

 

But that's the point. It isn't simply a matter of heritage. By repeating this heritage bit it comes off like people think those quaint ceremonies and nifty beanie hats and groovy chants are just heritage. Just something a person does to get in touch with their cultural roots but doesn't mean much beyond that.

 

Celebrate your Jewish heritage because it's a very rich one that doesn't depend soley on a religion but don't confuse religious ceremonies with cultural ones.

[Spy Car]

Me? No. But I didn't think we were putting the *faith* of the Jewish Christian/Christian Jew on trial. I thought we were defining terms.

 

No ones faith is on trial. And defining terms is exactly what I'm trying to do.

 

If someone is practicing Judaism & believes in Jesus, what is the best term for that?

 

I dunno. What would you call someone who is practicing Christianity, but believes Muhammad was the final prophet of God and the Qur'an was the only perfect testament of God and believes Jesus was not divine? I don't think it's possible to believe two mutually exclusive beliefs. But that's me.

 

An ethic Jew who believes in Christianity? A Jewish Christian? If a person called themselves a "Messianic Christian" is might be a little redundant, but who would object?

 

Bill

Edited October 1, 2009 by Spy Car

[Aubrey]

I dunno. What would you call someone who is practicing Christianity, but believes Muhammad was the final prophet of God and the Qur'an was the only perfect testament of God and believes Jesus was not divine? I don't think it's possible to believe two mutually exclusive beliefs. But that's me.

 

I agree. I don't think it's possible to believe 2 mutually exclusive things. I think most people would agree.

 

BUT this is exactly how religious wars have always been fought. One side says to the other: "Your faith is illogical/heretical/ridiculous." One side is offended by the other. Or both are mutually offended. Or they try to dictate what ea other can be.

 

As in, "Convert to Christianity or die." Or "You're not a true Christian/Jew/Muslim if you _____."

 

It's a matter of faith, imo. And there's really no accounting for (agreeing on?) that.

[Spy Car]

I agree. I don't think it's possible to believe 2 mutually exclusive things. I think most people would agree.

 

BUT this is exactly how religious wars have always been fought. One side says to the other: "Your faith is illogical/heretical/ridiculous." One side is offended by the other. Or both are mutually offended. Or they try to dictate what ea other can be.

 

As in, "Convert to Christianity or die." Or "You're not a true Christian/Jew/Muslim if you _____."

 

It's a matter of faith, imo. And there's really no accounting for (agreeing on?) that.

 

I can't disagree that there have been many wars and deaths over differences of faith. It is absolutely true.

 

Which only makes it more understandable that members of one faith might not be happy when practitioners of another faith claim the name of the first groups faith as their own. That makes sense, no?

 

Bill

[st_claire]

The thing that seems to be confusing people here is that being jewish isn't just a relgion, it's also a culture and an ethnicity. One may easily being jewish culteraly and/or ethnicly without being jewish religiously. For example humanist jews, atheist jews, etc.....

 

The thing to remember is that in times of suffering they will still be identified as a jew.

 

No Christians who practice jewish culture are not jewish imo. That's like saying if I practice kwanza I'm black.

[KingM]

I can't see why a Jew who became Christian would not also still be a Jew. After all, of the dozen or so Jews I know, almost all of them are atheists, yet they still consider themselves, and are considered by others, to be Jews.

 

Having said that, the reason why messianic Jews are so offensive to so many other Jews seems quite obvious to me. The Jews who are around today are those Jews who somehow managed to avoid the forcible conversions, the pogroms, and the Holocaust and still maintained their Jewish identity. To have a group say, "Look, we're not Christian, we're just Jews who worship Jesus!" must seem like a slap in the face to Jews who survived 2,000 years of oppression at the hands of people who claimed that their religion was false or incomplete in some way.

[WishboneDawn]

I understand your point. My husband calls himself a Christian. But if someone asks what he is he says he's a Christian German Jew. Why? Well what if he just said German Jew, then they would ask, "you are Jewish?" Then he has to say, "no I am a Christian, on and on" To cut to the chase, he says Christian German Jew. Does that make sense? If he wasn't German as well, he would just say Christian Jew.

 

I won't argue with what your husband does. I don't think it's the same as Messianic Judaism which is an organized Christian denomination.

 

Simple for him, BUT, there are Christian Jews that celebrate the Jewish feast/festivals. Back when Jesus was around, Jesus and His followers (that were Jewish) celebrated the Jewish feasts/festivals. This has continued until today. So aren't they Christian Jews too? By religion they are Christian, but they still do everything Jesus did as a Jew.

 

Does sprinkling water over a person's head or having a wafer and a sip of wine make you Christian? Is that all it takes?

 

It should be noted that is hasn't continued until this day. Jews and Christians split decisively in the first century AD. Messianic Judaism is a very modern movement with no historical roots in Judaism.

[OnTheBrink]

 

 

Saying Christianity is Judaism or "completed" Judaism or that those who worship Jesus as a God are practicing Judaism pretty well negates the Jewish faith as far as Jews see it.

 

Bill

 

Really? So, those who consider themselves as "completed Jews" are not allowing those who are regular Jews (for want of a better term) to practice their religion? They're obliterating the Jewish faith? So, basically, going by your logic, any religion other than Judaism is then negating and obliterating Judaism?

 

Hmm.

 

From Merriam Webster:

 

Main Entry: oblit·er·ate

Pronunciation: \ə-ˈbli-tə-ˌrāt, ō-\

Function: transitive verb

Inflected Form(s): oblit·er·at·ed; oblit·er·at·ing

Etymology: Latin oblitteratus, past participle of oblitterare, from ob- ob- + littera letter

Date: 1600

 

1 a : to remove utterly from recognition or memory b : to remove from existence : destroy utterly all trace, indication, or significance of c : to cause to disappear (as a bodily part or a scar) or collapse (as a duct conveying body fluid) : remove 4 <a blood vessel obliterated by inflammation>

2 : to make undecipherable or imperceptible by obscuring or wearing away

3 : cancel 4

 

— oblit·er·a·tion \-ˌbli-tə-ˈrā-shən\ noun

 

— oblit·er·a·tor \-ˈbli-tə-ˌrā-tər\ noun

 

Sorry, Bill. Messianic Jews are doing no such thing. Jews are practicing their religion without threat of obliteration from MJ's.

[Spy Car]

Really? So, those who consider themselves as "completed Jews" are not allowing those who are regular Jews (for want of a better term) to practice their religion? They're obliterating the Jewish faith? So, basically, going by your logic, any religion other than Judaism is then negating and obliterating Judaism?

 

 

No. I'm saying that if Muslims in a country where there was a tiny Christian population stated calling themselves "completed Christians" but practiced Islam while retaining some of the trappings and rituals of Christianity, and aimed their movement at converting Christians while declaring their faith was actually Christianity it might upset some people.

 

Bill

[OnTheBrink]

No. I'm saying that if Muslims in a country where there was a tiny Christian population stated calling themselves "completed Christians" but practiced Islam while retaining some of the trappings and rituals of Christianity, and aimed their movement at converting Christians while declaring their faith was actually Christianity it might upset some people.

 

Bill

 

It might. But that's a far, far cry from obliteration.

 

Personally, if I were one of those "incomplete" Christians in the predominantly Muslim country, I wouldn't really care what they called themselves. I'm strong enough in my faith that *I* would know what *I* am, and quite confident that God knows what they are, whether they're right, wrong or indifferent. I guess I just don't see the outrage.

[Earth Yarn]

That may have been true, until Jesus came. He and all of His Jewish followers were still Jews! People can be Jews by heritage, sorry. Look up the definition of a Jew... there are several. I already posted the link several pages back.

 

Main Entry: Jew

Pronunciation: \ˈjü\

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French ju, jeu, from Latin Judaeus, from Greek Ioudaios, from Hebrew Yĕhūdhī, from Yĕhūdhāh Judah, Jewish kingdom

Date: 13th century

1 a : a member of the tribe of Judah b : israelite

2 : a member of a nation existing in Palestine from the sixth century b.c. to the first century a.d.

3 : a person belonging to a continuation through descent or conversion of the ancient Jewish people

4 : one whose religion is Judaism

 

Merriam Webster Dictionay

 

Yes Jesus was a Jew and will always be a Jew his faith never changed. He was most likely a Rabbi actually. Christianity did not really begin until well after his death. However ethnically Jesus was Aramaic. He was an Aramaic Jew which defines his faith and ethnicity.

 

Judaism is no longer an ethnicity. Israeli is an ethnicity. You can have Israeli Christians which makes a heck of a lot more sense IMHO then Jewish Christians. I am Jewish but ethnically I am a mix of Irish, Swedish and German. When a person tells someone else they are Jewish that other person's brain does not go oh hey they are from Judah. But if one says they are Israeli then your brain does go oh hey they are from Israel. The actual likelyhood of a person in our time being able to trace themselves all the way back thousands of years to the tribe of Judah is highly unlikely. Jewish heritage is a term to define religious heritage not ethnicity.

 

To answer the question of afterlife. Judaism traditionally believes in an afterlife referred to as Olam ha*Ba. It is not mentioned in the Torah but many things are not mentioned in the Torah that are beliefs of Judaism. For one Jews believe that when the messiah comes the dead will rise beginning at the mount of olives and then spreading across the world until all of g-d's chosen have risen.

 

"So what is the afterlife exactly?

 

When a person dies and goes to heaven, the judgment is not arbitrary and externally imposed. Rather, the soul is shown two videotapes. The first video is called "This is Your Life!" Every decision and every thought, all the good deeds, and the embarrassing things a person did in private is all replayed without any embellishments. It's fully bared for all to see. That's why the next world is called Olam HaEmet - "the World of Truth," because

there we clearly recognize our personal strengths and shortcomings, and the true purpose of life. In short, Hell is not the Devil with a pitchfork stoking the fires.

 

The second video depicts how a person's life "could have been..." if the right choices had been made, if the opportunities were seized, if the potential was actualized. This video - the pain of squandered potential - is much more difficult to bear. But at the same time it purifies the soul as well. The pain creates regret which removes the barriers and enables the soul to completely connect to G-d.

 

Not all souls merit Gehenom. It is for people who have done good but need to be purified. A handful of people are too evil for Gehenom, and they are punished eternally."

 

If you study ancient Judaism and the mysticism you will reveal the "tree of life" Their are two halves of the "tree", negative and positive. Jews do not believe in "evil" They believe all will be forgiven and the soul will be purified by g-d. below the negative portion of the "tree" is the abyss. This notion is derived from ancient Sumerian belief. The abyss is a place devoid of time and matter where the souls that cannot be purified reside. This is "hell" to Jews. If you ask me it is way worse of a torment then fire and brimstone. The soul would be left in full awareness alone with nothing to interact with for all eternity. Jews believe in resurrection and reincarnation. Those who's souls are "clean" can come back to live in the flesh again by g-d.

 

These things are not mentioned in the Torah because the focus of the Torah is our life here now on earth.

 

 

 

If someone is practicing Judaism & believes in Jesus, what is the best term for that? Most Christians do not celebrate Passover or keep the Sabbath in the traditional sense. What should those who do, sincerely, call themselves?

 

If someone believes in Jesus the best term for them is christian period. You cannot be a Jew and believe in Jesus it simply does not work that way.

 

If you can trace yourself back to Israel though and are now Christian you would be an Israeli Christian which makes way more sense then a Christian Jew

Edited October 1, 2009 by Earth Yarn

[elizabeth]

hmm, elizabeth, this says traditional Judaism does believe in an afterlife and resurrection.

 

http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm

 

That is so but primarily reform Judaism holds differently. http://urj.org/ask/questions/afterlife/ You miss the point as well that there is no comparison regarding teleology with the two faiths thus, the end game is different. FWIW I know one Jewish person out of hundreds that holds to a belief in an afterlife and she is a Lubavitcher.

[Spy Car]

Judaism is no longer an ethnicity. Israeli is an ethnicity. You can have Israeli Christians which makes a heck of a lot more sense IMHO then Jewish Christians. I am Jewish but ethnically I am a mix of Irish, Swedish and German. When a person tells someone else they are Jewish that other person's brain does not go oh hey they are from Judah. But if one says they are Israeli then your brain does go oh hey they are from Israel. The actual likelyhood of a person in our time being able to trace themselves all the way back thousands of years to the tribe of Judah is highly unlikely. Jewish heritage is a term to define religious heritage not ethnicity.

 

 

You are Jewish, I'm not. Still your formulations don't gibe with what I know about Judaism.

 

"Judaism" was never an ethnicity, but a faith. While the term "Jew" has long extended to both members of the faith and members of the people (or nation) regardless of their "tribe". Not just those of the tribe of Judah. And would include converts.

 

An Israeli is a citizen of the modern nation-state of Israel and includes Jews, Christians, Muslims, Druze and others. Israeli is not synonymous with Jew and is not an ethnicity. A Jew living in the United State is not an Israeli unless they are a citizen of Israel.

 

And every Jew I know regards all Jews as part of the Jewish people even if they don't practice the faith.

 

Bill

Edited October 1, 2009 by Spy Car

[st_claire]

Judaism is no longer an ethnicity. Israeli is an ethnicity.

 

I disagree. Israeli is a nationality. Jews have 3 main ethnicities: ashkenazi, sephardic, and yemenite. Almost all non-converted jews are one of these ethnicities.

[Spy Car]

That is so but primarily reform Judaism holds differently. http://urj.org/ask/questions/afterlife/ You miss the point as well that there is no comparison regarding teleology with the two faiths thus, the end game is different. FWIW I know one Jewish person out of hundreds that holds to a belief in an afterlife and she is a Lubavitcher.

 

Yes. The Lubavitch (Chabad) do believe in an after-life where Reform Jews typically do not. It just goes to show there is diversity in Judaism, as with every faith.

 

Bill

[sheryl]

You can be a Jewish person and believe in Jesus. Yes, the Messiah.....Yeshua!

 

For anyone doubting that, please pm and we can talk.

 

Follower of YESHUA!

Sheryl

[Earth Yarn]

Ok my hubby put it a good way (he was a christian and now is an agnostic)

 

To believe in Jesus and believe he was/is the messiah one would have to give up the "old ways" to follow the new teachings of Jesus. He mentioned the giving up of the high priest and a torn fabric in the temple symbolizing this. If one gave up to "old ways" then one would no longer be Jewish. If one began to follow Jesus then one would become or convert to Christianity.

[st_claire]

You can be a Jewish person and believe in Jesus. Yes, the Messiah.....Yeshua!

 

For anyone doubting that, please pm and we can talk.

 

Follower of YESHUA!

Sheryl

 

 

Yes you can, but most jews will think you are going against God's will.

[st_claire]

Ok my hubby put it a good way (he was a christian and now is an agnostic)

 

To believe in Jesus and believe he was/is the messiah one would have to give up the "old ways" to follow the new teachings of Jesus. He mentioned the giving up of the high priest and a torn fabric in the temple symbolizing this. If one gave up to "old ways" then one would no longer be Jewish. If one began to follow Jesus then one would become or convert to Christianity.

 

 

Your hubby is wrong. You can give up anything and you are still jewish. If you are born a jew, you can never stop being a jew.

[sheryl]

Yes you can, but most jews will think you are going against God's will.

 

 

OK, I hear what you are saying. Yes, unfortunately most Jews do believe they are going against G-d's will. But that's because they have NEVER been taught nor entertained the idea of Jesus. Prayfully they will understand that His Son was born and died for a purpose, that their bloodline does not change...still Jewish born. The difference is they now believe in Jesus as Messiah and Savior......salvation. I have Jewish friends that are in my church.....they have told me they will always be Jewish...praise G-d, what a blessing to be in family of the "chosen ones".

 

I have other Jewish friends who go to a Messianic congregation. I celebrate with them from time to time as a Gentile. Because I attend this Messianic congregation does not mean I can convert to become a Jew. Why you may ask do some of us Gentiles go to a Messianic congregation? Well, you should hear Sam. Also, I am interested in learning more about Jesus from Jewish believers and trace my faith but to it's Jewish roots....in Jesus!

 

I would encourage each one to pick up the Bible and start reading what G-d says in His Word. Everything is about Jesus! And, redemption! I'm so incredibly thankful to Him!

[Carol in Cal.]

No. I'm saying that if Muslims in a country where there was a tiny Christian population stated calling themselves "completed Christians" but practiced Islam while retaining some of the trappings and rituals of Christianity, and aimed their movement at converting Christians while declaring their faith was actually Christianity it might upset some people.

 

Bill

 

However, it would genuinely reflect their belief, and I would rather that they said it than hiding it. I remember when those two Christian teenagers were kidnapped in Afghanistan and later rescued, one of the Taliban leaders called Christianity an obselete religion that had been superceded by Islam. Did I disagree? By all means. Did I hate hearing that? Why, yes. Did I think he should not have said it? No, I was glad to hear what he really thought. I thought he should not have believed that, but I also was glad to know his true beliefs because as annoying and insulting as they were, they were very informative.

[Spy Car]

However, it would genuinely reflect their belief, and I would rather that they said it than hiding it. I remember when those two Christian teenagers were kidnapped in Afghanistan and later rescued, one of the Taliban leaders called Christianity an obselete religion that had been superceded by Islam. Did I disagree? By all means. Did I hate hearing that? Why, yes. Did I think he should not have said it? No, I was glad to hear what he really thought. I thought he should not have believed that, but I also was glad to know his true beliefs because as annoying and insulting as they were, they were very informative.

 

No. Being called "Muslims" while holding those views (as difficult as they might be for a Christian to hear) would be an honest reflection of their faith (as they understood it). We could get "side-tracked" on a discussion of Muslim attitude towards "people of the book" but I don't want to go there.

 

But these Muslims, in your scenario, would be acting as Muslims (as they understood, or mis-understood Islam) and were not claiming to be "completed Christians".

 

I don't think many Muslims of good-will would approve of the Taliban, or kidnapping, but again that's outside this discussion.

 

It's bad enough to kidnap a person, but to kidnap their religion on top of it? What person would stand for it?

 

Bill

[Erica in PA]

Glad to try again. There are many, many Jews who are agnostics. Yes a Jew can self identify as Jewish based on culture not religious beliefs. why ?/Because Jewishness is much more than a religion one can take or leave as the mind ses fit. One can only be born a Jew by being born of a Jewish mother or converting. It is a substantive religion in which diet, ritual, everyday life is infused with Jewishness that is a state of "being " Jewish rather than other or gentile. Asking that question assumes that the end goal of Judaism is the same as that of Christianity. It is not there is no resurrection of the body, no need for belief in a God that provides salvation as for most if not all Jewish believers the end is just that . To ask the question is to reveal that there is not a basic understanding of the Jewsih faith, culture or worldview. The here and now is it for most Jews. No afterlife, certainly no resurrection of the body etc. This vast difference accounts in part for the fact that the Jewish people have separate cemeteries , burial rituals and the like. Thus to ask the question of what a Jew must believe in order to count as a Jewish person is to assume that the end goal of being a self identified Jew is the same as those who claim identification with the Christian community. I am sorry if I am unclear. It is not a good day for me to try to "speak" as I am on massive doses of steroids for an autoimmune issue. Please accept my apologies for what I am sure are garbled words.

 

Thank you for the clarification. I did not know that many Jews do not believe in an afterlife!! That was very interesting to find out! And I do understand what you're saying better now. The only thing I am still stuck on, is why *completely* secular Jews who do absolutely *nothing* in accordance with Jewish traditions or beliefs are perfectly okay, but those who believe that Jesus was the Messiah are an abomination. It seems to me that in the first case, the stance is that spiritual concerns don't matter, but in the second case they do.

[Carol in Cal.]

No. Being called "Muslims" while holding those views (as difficult as they might be for a Christian to hear) would be an honest reflection of their faith (as they understood it). We could get "side-tracked" on a discussion of Muslim attitude towards "people of the book" but I don't want to go there.

 

But these Muslims, in your scenario, would be acting as Muslims (as they understood, or mis-understood Islam) and were not claiming to be "completed Christians".

 

I don't think many Muslims of good-will would approve of the Taliban, or kidnapping, but again that's outside this discussion.

 

It's bad enough to kidnap a person, but to kidnap their religion on top of it? What person would stand for it?

 

Bill

 

 

I specifically said Taliban rather than Muslim in giving that quote. I don't believe, nor did I imply, that all Muslims approve of the Taliban or of kidnapping. I was just giving a context for where I heard that quote.

 

And actually, I do think that the analogy holds. "Supercede" implies that the faith was once correct and now has been fulfilled by the later faith. So 'completed Christian' in that scenerio would be a former Christian who converted to Islam. Same idea, really, just not quite the same phrasing.

[st_claire]

I would encourage each one to pick up the Bible and start reading what G-d says in His Word. Everything is about Jesus! And, redemption! I'm so incredibly thankful to Him!

 

Not in the old testament, which is the only one most jews believe in.

[Spy Car]

Thank you for the clarification. I did not know that many Jews do not believe in an afterlife!! That was very interesting to find out! And I do understand what you're saying better now. The only thing I am still stuck on, is why *completely* secular Jews who do absolutely *nothing* in accordance with Jewish traditions or beliefs are perfectly okay, but those who believe that Jesus was the Messiah are an abomination. It seems to me that in the first case, the stance is that spiritual concerns don't matter, but in the second case they do.

 

Who said *abomination*?

 

I don't think anyone said anything like that. I've said (repeatedly) that most Jews regard all Jews as part of the Jewish people whether they are secular, observant, or have converted to Christianity.

 

But if ethnic Jews are practicing Christianity (that is to say they believe in Jesus as their savior and a divine being) they are not viewed as following the religion of Judaism. They are following another faith. Just as (to repeat) an Italian can practice Islam, even if they were born Catholic. But they can't be Catholic and Muslim at the same instance.

 

This isn't difficult to follow, is it?

 

Bill

[st_claire]

Thank you for the clarification. I did not know that many Jews do not believe in an afterlife!! That was very interesting to find out! And I do understand what you're saying better now. The only thing I am still stuck on, is why *completely* secular Jews who do absolutely *nothing* in accordance with Jewish traditions or beliefs are perfectly okay, but those who believe that Jesus was the Messiah are an abomination. It seems to me that in the first case, the stance is that spiritual concerns don't matter, but in the second case they do.

 

 

The vast majority of jews do believe in an afterlife. The issue is if the person was born a jew or not.

[st_claire]

Who said *abomination*?

 

I don't think anyone said anything like that. I've said (repeatedly) that most Jews regard all Jews as part of the Jewish people whether they are secular, observant, or have converted to Christianity.

 

But if ethnic Jews are practicing Christianity (that is to say they believe in Jesus as their savior and a divine being) they are not viewed as following the religion of Judaism. They are following another faith. Just as (to repeat) an Italian can practice Islam, even if they were born Catholic. But they can't be Catholic and Muslim at the same instance.

 

This isn't difficult to follow, is it?

 

Bill

 

 

That's right. They are ethnically jewish, but not religiously jewish.

[Aubrey]

No. Being called "Muslims" while holding those views (as difficult as they might be for a Christian to hear) would be an honest reflection of their faith (as they understood it). We could get "side-tracked" on a discussion of Muslim attitude towards "people of the book" but I don't want to go there.

 

But these Muslims, in your scenario, would be acting as Muslims (as they understood, or mis-understood Islam) and were not claiming to be "completed Christians".

 

I don't think many Muslims of good-will would approve of the Taliban, or kidnapping, but again that's outside this discussion.

 

It's bad enough to kidnap a person, but to kidnap their religion on top of it? What person would stand for it?

 

Bill

 

Ok, Bill, I think I finally see what you mean. It's sort-of like identity theft. You see the label as an absolute lie, even if not always intentional.

 

Putting aside ethnicity for a moment--because I *think* that's a little bit separate from the religious side of the question--some people really do believe in the basic tenets of the Jewish faith & also the basic tenets of the Christian faith.

 

Are these people wrong? Well...*that* is a different question. Are they lying? Perhaps some people who call themselves Messianic Jews are really lying Christians. Maybe some of them are confused Christians. But the ones I have known really, truly believe *both* religions, & they are often rejected by both.

 

We know from this thread why Jews feel threatened by them. Christians, too, sometimes feel threatened by them, as if they are saying that one HAS to follow the Jewish laws to be "saved." In reality, what they believe (from what I understand) is a fine line between the 2. They believe that following Jewish laws & customs honors God. They believe that Jewish tradition & history reveal the Messiah.

 

I understand that most Jews don't believe this way. But if some people--both of Jewish heritage & non-Jewish heritage--DO--well...what do you do with that? How can they *believe* without offending?

 

Because...while we could pick a different name for this group of people & even possibly convince them to use it...I don't think that would take away the problem. I think the problem lies in the fact that for this group, 2 faiths are overlapping, & frankly, nobody's thrilled with that.

[st_claire]

Ok, Bill, I think I finally see what you mean. It's sort-of like identity theft. You see the label as an absolute lie, even if not always intentional.

 

Putting aside ethnicity for a moment--because I *think* that's a little bit separate from the religious side of the question--some people really do believe in the basic tenets of the Jewish faith & also the basic tenets of the Christian faith.

 

Are these people wrong? Well...*that* is a different question. Are they lying? Perhaps some people who call themselves Messianic Jews are really lying Christians. Maybe some of them are confused Christians. But the ones I have known really, truly believe *both* religions, & they are often rejected by both.

 

We know from this thread why Jews feel threatened by them. Christians, too, sometimes feel threatened by them, as if they are saying that one HAS to follow the Jewish laws to be "saved." In reality, what they believe (from what I understand) is a fine line between the 2. They believe that following Jewish laws & customs honors God. They believe that Jewish tradition & history reveal the Messiah.

 

I understand that most Jews don't believe this way. But if some people--both of Jewish heritage & non-Jewish heritage--DO--well...what do you do with that? How can they *believe* without offending?

 

Because...while we could pick a different name for this group of people & even possibly convince them to use it...I don't think that would take away the problem. I think the problem lies in the fact that for this group, 2 faiths are overlapping, & frankly, nobody's thrilled with that.

 

 

Maybe the real question is in times of suffering, would they still call themselves jews or would they claim to be christians?

[Aubrey]

Maybe the real question is in times of suffering, would they still call themselves jews or would they claim to be christians?

 

*That* is a very good & very fair question. But...I do think that it could be asked of each of us, whatever faith we practice.

[Spy Car]

I specifically said Taliban rather than Muslim in giving that quote. I don't believe, nor did I imply, that all Muslims approve of the Taliban or of kidnapping. I was just giving a context for where I heard that quote.

 

And actually, I do think that the analogy holds. "Supercede" implies that the faith was once correct and now has been fulfilled by the later faith. So 'completed Christian' in that scenerio would be a former Christian who converted to Islam. Same idea, really, just not quite the same phrasing.

 

I didn't (don't) mean to suggest you were implying all Muslims approve of the Taliban or kidnapping.

 

And I don't disagree that a Muslim might/does believe than Islam "supercedes" Christianity, just as Christians believe Christianity "supercedes" Judaism. Because that's what Muslims do believe. We have no argument. People of different faith disagree. No problem.

 

The only issue is "phrasing". If one is a Christian and converts to Islam then one is a Muslim. That person's family may (or may not) be "thrilled" about the faith-change, but it's clear one is leaving ones faith tradition and joining another. The new Muslim is not claiming to be a "completed Christian" or operating a "church" in that name.

 

Bill

[st_claire]

*That* is a very good & very fair question. But...I do think that it could be asked of each of us, whatever faith we practice.

 

But the jewish born don't have such an option. We can't pick and chose based on convinience. And I think that is what upsets most jews about gentiles calling themselves jews. They lack the understanding of the disadvantages and responsiblity of belonging to such a group.

[Carol in Cal.]

Who said *abomination*?

 

I don't think anyone said anything like that. I've said (repeatedly) that most Jews regard all Jews as part of the Jewish people whether they are secular, observant, or have converted to Christianity.

 

 

Bill

 

What I have seen is tolerance for ethnicly Jewish people embracing ANY faith EXCEPT Christianity.

 

My understanding is that the Right of Return is the same way--that all who have a Jewish ethnic background, regardless of current religious faith or practice, are entitled to citizenship in Israel EXCEPT those who are also Christian.

[st_claire]

What I have seen is tolerance for ethnicly Jewish people embracing ANY faith EXCEPT Christianity.

 

My understanding is that the Right of Return is the same way--that all who have a Jewish ethnic background, regardless of current religious faith or practice, are entitled to citizenship in Israel EXCEPT those who are also Christian.

 

 

That is incorrect.

[Carol in Cal.]

I

 

 

The new Muslim is not claiming to be a "completed Christian"

Bill

 

I think that the new Muslim is claiming precisely that.

[Aubrey]

But the jewish born don't have such an option. We can't pick and chose based on convinience. And I think that is what upsets most jews about gentiles calling themselves jews. They lack the understanding of the disadvantages and responsiblity of belonging to such a group.

 

Well...that moves back over into ethnicity instead of religion. Judaism has always had converts, & from what I understand, that's ok.

 

As far as ethnicity goes, the Jewish-born *have* had the option to claim Judaism or not sometimes. I've read stories of blonde-haired, blue-eyed Jews "hiding" their ethnicity to avoid the Nazis.

 

I assumed you were asking whether or not a person would be faithful to his (proclaimed) faith when that faith was under some kind of scrutiny. And I think in all religions, there will be some who follow what they believe to the death, while others will falter.

 

I'd guess that it would be hard to predict who'd fall where.

[Erica in PA]

But if ethnic Jews are practicing Christianity (that is to say they believe in Jesus as their savior and a divine being) they are not viewed as following the religion of Judaism. They are following another faith. Just as (to repeat) an Italian can practice Islam, even if they were born Catholic. But they can't be Catholic and Muslim at the same instance.

 

This isn't difficult to follow, is it?

 

Bill

 

Well, there must be something tricky about it, because I agree with what you've said here, and I still don't see that there is a problem with the term Messianic Jew, because they *are still Jews,* even if they believe in Jesus.

[Erica in PA]

That's right. They are ethnically jewish, but not religiously jewish.

 

I agree!!! Does anyone claim otherwise?

[Spy Car]

Ok, Bill, I think I finally see what you mean. It's sort-of like identity theft. You see the label as an absolute lie, even if not always intentional.

 

Please don't say that. I never said anyone was lying. I'm sure that Jews who embrace Jesus as their savior are entirely sincere in their faith.

 

They just aren't practicing Judaism, they've converted to a form of Christianity. Why not be proud of that?

 

Putting aside ethnicity for a moment--because I *think* that's a little bit separate from the religious side of the question--some people really do believe in the basic tenets of the Jewish faith & also the basic tenets of the Christian faith.

 

But Aubrey, there are elements of these two faiths that are mutually exclusive, in the same way one can't be a practicing Christian and a Muslim at the same time.

 

Are these people wrong? Well...*that* is a different question. Are they lying? Perhaps some people who call themselves Messianic Jews are really lying Christians. Maybe some of them are confused Christians. But the ones I have known really, truly believe *both* religions, & they are often rejected by both.

 

I never said anyone was "wrong" nor have I suggested anyone is lying. Please don't hang these ideas on my head, because I said nothing of the kind. OK?

 

Bill