Logical consequences, help me think (and quick!)

[Old Dominion Heather]

Ds 7 has been rotten to Ds 4 all day and things have gotten to the point that there will have to be consequences. I just am not sure what they should be.

 

Background: Ds 10 is having surgery on Friday and Ds 7 and Ds 4 will be staying with my mom. No discipline will happen at her house, so we need to get this done.

 

Ds 4 went to preschool today. When he got home at noon, he and Ds 7 got in a fight over whether Ds 4 could close the door. Ds7 was blocking the 4yo from shutting the front door because Ds7 "wanted it open." Discussion over bossiness ensued.

 

I send them upstairs to play legos. Ds 7 started a fight over whether 4yo could turn on the overhead light because ds7 "wanted it off." Ds 7 came and sat with me for a bit and came up with the plan of not bossing his brother anymore, so he got to go back and play again.

 

All three of the boys started playing cars and told ds4 that he could not park his car in the place where he had parked it. Crying ensues. Much, much talk of "how would you like it if I did that to you?"

 

Ds4 has been excited for WEEKS over getting to bring home the classroom stuffed frog. Today was the day and he was the FIRST in his class to get to bring home the stuffed frog. He has to write down what he and Freddy the frog do this weekend and take him back next week.

 

Ds7 takes the frog from his little brother without asking. When Ds4 tries to pull the frog back, his arm rips off. Ds4 comes to me in TEARS telling me that HE is sorry for pulling the arm off. When I asked him Ds7 admits that he was the one who was holding the frog refusing to give it back.

 

Now we have a disappointed 4yo with a ripped frog and a 7yo that needs some serious consequences. Not only did he do actual physical damage to the frog, but he ruined the whole "Freddy the Frog experience" for his brother.

 

I need some logical consequences and I have limited time in which to implement them. Here are some choices:

 

1. Ds7 has a church class tonight that he enjoys. DH and I teach it. We could make him sit out.

 

2. He has a co-op class in the morning... I could make him sit that out.

 

3. Something better that you guys can think of.

 

I have to leave these two boys with my mom tomorrow while my older son has surgery, so I really need this to get worked out asap. Thanks for reading all this.

[Impish]

He has to fix the frog (with assistance) and write a letter of apology to his younger brother's class. If Frog can't be fixed, then brother needs to pay for a replacement...if he has $ or allowance, use that...if not, he can clean his little brother's room, be assigned to little brother as a helper. Any arguing, etc subtracts from money earned (I'm thinking cleaning l brother's room is worth $3, etc)

 

I honestly think this needs to be something in service to his younger brother, since tormenting him in a myriad of ways is really what the issue was.

[Dayle in Guatemala]

In a similar situation with my dc, I had the offender serve the offended for a day. In other words, if ds4 needs help with something (making bed, putting away toys, bringing his plate to the sink, getting ready to go somewhere, etc.) ds7 will be the designated helper. If there are complaints or trouble, it continues the next day until he does it with a willing and good attitude.

 

It worked for me. It also helped my dc develop a heart to help each other. I made sure that I let them know when they did a good job. In other words, when they did something with a good attitude, I encouraged them by praising them (even while they were doing it as a consequence).

 

Anyway, just a suggestion. HTH

[freeindeed]

Agreeing with Impish and Dayle. When one of my children is treating another in the ways that you described, then the "offender" must be the servant of the one he/she's been tormenting for a day.

[eternalknot]

When I think of logical consequences, I think more along the lines of relevancy. So right away, I'd hesitate to use choices one or two (church and co-op). I think consequences should relate more to the actual conflict, which you stated to be: ripped frog, ruined experience for brother, and then just the whole daylong drama that's been going on at your house.

 

Gosh, if that were my house I'd institute mandatory fun time. Maybe not so much "fun" as "togetherness" time -- some activity or situation or assignment/chore that would require the two kids to work together for a shared common goal. And if this means skipping church or co-op, that's okay (if say, for instance, the activity would happen at the same time and the skipping church or co-op is an indirect consquence rather than the direct consequence).

 

The older child needs to find some way to make up for the ruined experience; it may require that he ask the younger WHAT specifically he can do to make it up to him. He also needs to make amends for the physical damage - both to his brother and to his brother's class. He'll need to brainstorm ways to do that, from acknowleding his role to replacing the object. I'd probably make him come with me to surgery to make sure this all got done, knowing it wouldn't happen at grandma's.

 

Tough day, huh? Hope the weekend goes better, from surgery to sibling relationships ...

[Sue G in PA]

I'm not good with consequences period. You know my track record...it's not stellar. So, take this for what it is worth...less than 2 cents :tongue_smilie: Could you have ds7 write a letter of apology to the classroom teacher apologizing for ripping the frog? Does he get allowance? If he does, you could take away the allowance until a replacement frog has been paid for. As for hurting 4yo feelings and ruining the experience...7yo should be required to make it up to 4yo somehow. Giving 4yo a favorite toy, "serving" 4yo for a day, etc. I don't know. Seems to me that taking away c0-op or church class isn't really related. Again, just my less than 2 cents. Sorry you are dealing with this. :grouphug:

[RegularMom]

I agree with helping fix the frog, and with writing a letter of apology to the class, explaining how the frog was injured.

 

As for service to his younger brother, I'd consider finding a way to serve both his little brother and the frog. Is there a way he could assist with the weekend caretaking of the frog? During the frog's convalescence?

[BMW]

agreeing with the other posts... and adding...

 

I'd have the brother come up with some very special moments for frog and brother. After repairs are done for the frog, have boy entertain brother and frog... play game with brother and frog (little brother's choice)... or you come up with some special activities that brother has to help with...

 

"Son, I need you to play leap from with little boy and stuffed frog right now"

 

"Son, can you set up little boy and frog a blanket and pillow area so that they can enjoy this video together."

 

I would come up with as many scenarios that have older brother making sure younger brother has a swell time with frog. And then if older brother wont cooperate, then he is crossing the line with you and you might then not allow an activity. But try to keep this a time of older repairing damage he has done with younger.

[Danestress]

we deal with these kinds of issues here too, but since my boys are twins, there isn't the power difference, and instead of seeing it as bossy and victimized, I tend to think if it as both people believing they are the most important person in the room.

 

DS7 wants the door open and DS4 wants it closed. Each wants his way, and neither will budge. I'm not sure how that's entirely DS7's fault. It sounds like DS4's unwillingness to say, "Oh, did you want that open?" also prevents a reasonable solution. Same with the overhead light. Same with the parking space. While it seems like DS 7 is purposely looking for things to use as power struggle fodder, DS4 really don't have to play that game. He could just leave the light off. Even the frog, really, was ripped because two people both insisted on having it. I would hold DS 7 responsible there since it was supposed to be DS 4's responsibility and he should have to surrender it. But he did have a better choice in tugging until it ripped.

 

I would talk to both boys about what happens when two people believe that they are both the most important person in the room so they should get their way. I would make each of them practice some role play in which they say, "Oh, did you want that? No problem. Here you go."

 

Obviously you have a problem with DS 7 being in a bossy stage. To me the best solution is to just identify that what is happening. Calling it by name really helps. "You are being bossy. You are not the boss. Because you selfishly insisted on your own way, I am going to step in and insist that Ds4 gets his way in this." But I don't do that often because I think it make the younger child turn to Mom to settle disputes. I was the younger child, and I was a master at playing victim, lol.

 

I also think that separating spatting children is really a very logical consequence. "I can't stand to listen to the arguing. Therefore, when you fuss and fight, I will put each of you on his own bed for 20 minutes." If DS 7 is being especially belligerently aggressive for picking fights, I would put him in his room by himself for a while - not for days, mind you. Even a half hour every time it happens will really shorten how often it happens.

Edited September 23, 2009 by Danestress

[eternalknot]

we deal with these kinds of issues here too, but since my boys are twins, there isn't the power difference, and instead of seeing it as bossy and victimized, I tend to think if it as both people believing they are the most important person in the room.

 

I would talk to both boys about what happens when two people believe that they are both the most important person in the room so they should get their way. I would make each of them practice some role play in which they say, "Oh, did you want that? No problem. Here you go."

 

 

 

This speaks to me, and offers me perspective on my own kids' relationship struggles. Thanks for posting; something for me to chew on.

[SnowWhite]

ITA with Danestress. I have an 8yo and a nearly 5yo, and they compete CONSTANTLY over who will prevail in any situation. I use the "removal of each other's company" consequence with a twist... Often they are playing a video game and I will hear repeated protests from the older that the younger isn't cooperating or tears from the younger that the older is bullying (in the game's character). So my consequence would be that neither of them may play the game anymore. If it was a dire circumstance, they would both earn time resting on the bed to "calm down", away from one another.

 

Now the frog ripping *was* mostly the older boy's fault, though the younger should definitely not have continued pulling until it ripped. I agree that the older boy should pay to replace the frog and should earn the money dearly to do so (cleaning bathrooms or vacuuming floors comes to mind).

 

I think it is easy for us as mothers to often side with the younger children because it is the responsibility of the olders to be good examples and help the little ones... but we need to teach the younger children to be gracious as well.

[lionfamily1999]

He has to fix the frog (with assistance) and write a letter of apology to his younger brother's class. If Frog can't be fixed, then brother needs to pay for a replacement...if he has $ or allowance, use that...if not, he can clean his little brother's room, be assigned to little brother as a helper. Any arguing, etc subtracts from money earned (I'm thinking cleaning l brother's room is worth $3, etc)

 

I honestly think this needs to be something in service to his younger brother, since tormenting him in a myriad of ways is really what the issue was.

Definitely. We've had older ds be younger ds's "servant for the day." The sweetness of the littles (younger ds was very kind) is a lesson in and of itself.

[Old Dominion Heather]

Well, in the case with the door and the light, I think it was a case of lording power over his brother. The 7yo didn't want to move his foot so that the little guy could close the door. He wasn't looking out or anything, he just didn't want to move.

 

Same thing with the lights. They had gone upstairs to play, Ds7 goes around turning on some lights, Ds4 turns on the only one he can turn on (he is a young 4), and THAT light was the wrong one to turn on to keep his brother happy. It seems like today, it really hasn't mattered what Ds4 has done, it is the wrong thing and his brother has not talked to him about the situation, he has physically restrained the little brother.

 

I don't think Ds4 even knew that the frog COULD rip. We don't have many stuffed animals.

 

Oh and we just got back from dropping the older off at handbells. Ds7 ripped Ds4's crown of leaves that he made at pre-school. Accidentally, of course. :glare:

 

Ds4 is very capable at playing the martyr, too of course. Though in these cases, especially with the frog, he hasn't.

[Old Dominion Heather]

You guys have given me some excellent ideas. I really appreciate it!

 

I'll let you know what we end up doing. I think a letter to the teacher is definitely in order. We have fixed the frog. Ds4 was so distraught that I sewed it back on asap, so having Ds7 fix it is not an option.

 

You have to understand that Freddy is considered a member of the class. They have been talking this up for weeks, and he goes out to play with them on the playground, has lunch with them, listens to stories, and has his own suitcase. He is just as real to them as another kid. :001_huh: