Having a hard time with double digit division

[Oakblossoms]

My son is 12 years old. He is working through MUS Delta. Yes, you read that correctly. He fights and fights about Math. He did it when he was in public school.

 

He is on lesson 24 currently. He is having a horrible time.

 

I really don't know what to do with him. I cannot switch to something like TT because we have a MAC and cannot afford a new computer.

 

I'm at the end of rope. I'm very, very upset about it.

 

He doesn't want me to teach him. He doesn't want to listen. He throws a big hissy fit about it. I'm going to admit that I've let this go on for, too long. I've been trying to get some consistency over Math.

 

I'm really frustrated over it. Any suggestions or love you can send my way?

[Julie in Austin]

two words: short division

[Moni]

Does he know his math facts, all of them?

Have you 'tested' him on this to see whether he has forgotten some of them?

 

He doesn't want me to teach him. He doesn't want to listen. He throws a big hissy fit about it

 

Saxon Math is independent no teacher from Math 54 and up, nine books, no teacher.

There are only about 120 Saxon days in the books, and 180 school days.

If he is "behind" he can do math Mon-Fri for 9 months and finish a three books in 2 years. and he will likely catch up.

 

If you add Saxon only, on Saturdays and in half the summer, he will get ahead.

 

Don't give any Saxon weekly tests. Just the daily assignments.

 

So first see whether he knows his math facts

All of them , plus, minus, times, and divide

 

"Garlic Press" "basic facts package"

he'll need to complete every sheet (ten per operation) in under 5 minutes each. 4 minutes, 59 seconds, not any slower.

 

First addition sheets, then multiplication.

Then comeback for subtraction and division, which are just the first two, but backwards, so they are 'easier'.

 

And then

Do all 40 sheets again, each under 4 mins 59 seconds strictly,

once more for good measure.

Then

Take a Saxon placement test and put him in the correct book or one lower.

Independently. It's all in the Saxon book.

 

He works his problems

You check and answers.

Hand it back, he has to re-work the problems with no help.

(It's all in the book. He just has to read it)

Repeat, repeat until alla re correct.

Give him a 100% and a big red "A" on top of his paper and announce he is done with Saxon for the day. :)

 

But first he needs to know his math facts.

Then the next nine books are independent, teacher-free.

Just stack the nine books on his desk and ask him to let you know when he's completed Calculus. ;)

 

And he might need to start in Math 54 or Math 65, but Math 65 is an excellent book. Don't discount it just because it's got "low numbers" on the title.

Put a book cover on the book so it doesn't show..

 

Math is sequential. You have to know the early stuff before the later books.

if he doesn't like to be in a lower book, that's fine, when he learns enough math he can move on to a higher book.

 

Kids don't start Music lessons with Sonata and Concertos just because they are 12 years old, not 5. They start at the beginning

Teens don't start in the Black belt class instead of beginner class just because they are 12, not 6. They start at the beginning Karate.

12th grader don't start Spanish in Spanish 4 just because they are 4th year students. They take Beginning Spanish if they are beginners.

 

Oh, for the Facts, the procedure is

Set the timer for 5 minutes. (or six at first, for practice, but eventually needs to get in under 5 mins)

Student gets a fresh sheet

+1'a

STart the timer, start the student.

When the timer beeps, pencils down.

Do not finish the page.

 

If he beat the timer, he "knows" his +1's

Tomorrow, or later in the day, give him

+2's sheet, a fresh new sheet

Set the timer for 5 minutes

Start the timer, start the student

When the timer beeps, pencils down.

Do not finish the page.

 

If he didn't finish, then tomorrow he gets a fresh clean +2's sheet again to give it another go.

At 5 minutes beeper, pencils down. Do not finish the page.

Same thing

If he finished the page under 5 minutes, tomorrow he gets the +3's page.

If not, tomorrow he gets a new fresh +2's again.

And so forth and so on, daily, always a fresh new sheet of whatever he's trying to pass at the moment, and always the Reverse-timing. Pencils down, do not finish the page (unless of course he beats the timer)

 

You will likely find he has a few facts he's forgotten, but this will catch them.

If he knows them all, then he gets a couple weeks of easy math

 

No math book assignments while evaluating/learning the math facts.

 

Maybe you will find he knows them.

If so, grand.

Time to stand out of the way.

Stack the nine Saxon books and he'll only be able to argue with himself about it.

 

:seeya:

Edited August 18, 2009 by Moni

[Oakblossoms]

He knows the math facts except division. He can't do the division math facts. I'll make sure to start working on those.

 

He just can't figure out how to keep things lined up. He uses graph paper. But, he makes a lot of mistakes. He will do a few problems wrong and then mess up on the one completely. He doesn't see the next step half the time. He forgets to bring numbers down.

[Perry]

My son only began to understand long division after we worked on partial quotient division first. Once he got good at that, we transitioned to long division and the place value just made sense.

 

ETA:

 

We did *A LOT* of these on the board, for weeks, before suddenly the light bulb came on. Be patient. He'll get there.

[Julie in Austin]

He doesn't see the next step half the time. He forgets to bring numbers down.

 

Short division is really good for this. And it makes kids feel like they are getting away with something.;)

[Janet in WA]

A word of encouragement from one who has been there. Believe me, he WILL get it. Some take longer than others to get it. It's not unusual at all for a 12 year old to still struggle with long division. My advice is not to push too hard or spend too much money switching math programs. By all means, try some of the strategies being suggested here. But back off some and don't make this such a stressful issue for your son. Don't make him dread his time with math every day.

 

Believe me, some day, when he's ready, it will just click. You'll look back and wonder why long division seemed such a big deal. But then, you'll find yourselves struggling with fractions or algebra. :)

[Oakblossoms]

Thank you Janet. He has struggled in other areas of Math before.

 

I tried sitting down and working through the problems with him. That is what ended up so badly. But, he kept getting things wrong.

 

Do I just keep handing the same page back to him each day till he gets those correct?

 

I know this problems sounds stupid. But, I'm frustrated and so is he. If he doesn't really get division and moves through will he get enough practice to finally "get it".

 

Will he "get it" if he keeps doing these problems over and over again. Should I circle the parts he got wrong or just say it's wrong do it till it's correct.

[Moni]

He just can't figure out how to keep things lined up. He uses graph paper.

 

We just turn our regular paper, sideways.

Instant columns ;)

 

He will do a few problems wrong and then mess up on the one completely. He doesn't see the next step half the time. He forgets to bring numbers down.

 

This is not uncommon.

Just continue to do one or more daily, for the next 100 days.

It's okay to get problems wrong.

Just keep at it , daily, until he starts getting them all correct.

Make a list of his incorrect division problems, and then for the next 100 days, assign one or two. By day 101 he will probably have the hang of it.

 

:seeya:

[hornblower]

I wouldn't worry too much about whether he's behind or not. He is where he is :-) Once things click, he'll progress faster. Learning is not really linear IMO so you'll often see long plateaus and then a big spike.

 

Here's a power point which uses a kind of neat mnemonic device to remember all the steps:

http://www.lexington1.net/technology/?page=instruct/powerpoint.htm

It's near the top of the page, called Long Division under the elem. category, written by Monica Yuskaitis. I'd print the powerpoint out for him, put it in a plastic page protector & have him keep it on his desk as he's working a problem.

 

Also, have you tried doing a lesson where he doesn't do any problems, just listens to you? Sometimes when I've had a lot of resistance and the child was just 'not getting it', what has helped was to say, OK, put your books away, just look at me & see what I'm doing. That's all. Just listen.

 

And then just do a couple problems, calmly, slowly, talking out loud what you're doing each step. Be careful not to say 'so what you do is....' but rather: 'then I do this; and then I do this; I think maybe this so I try...'

 

Leave it for the day. The next day, demo again. Some kids learn by doing but there are others who learn more from watching someone else do it over and over again.

 

There's also a dvd from the Standard Deviants on basic math which I'd see if your library has - ours does. Just have him watch it, in chunks.

 

If after a week or so you're still seeing the same confusion & frustration, I personally would park the subject for a bit. Do a unit on basic geometry or weights & measures. Come back in a few weeks.

[Oakblossoms]

I've been trying to demo problems for him. It ends in tears or the yelling.

 

I think I'll have him move on to the next section in the book AND have him do one division problem a day.

 

I'd appreciate anymore input or commiseration today though. When I started homeschooling I had such high expectations for everyone. I just feel like such a lousy teacher.

[Janet in WA]

I should preface this to say that this is one reason my sons liked Saxon. Because of its incremental approach, they didn't face one concept (such as long division) every day until they mastered it. They worked with many different concepts, in small bites, every day. Some of them were easy, some more difficult. But, as my youngest son said, "At least every day I don't have to face a whole page of stuff I don't like." I'm not recommending Saxon, just commenting on the way a 12 year old brain works.

 

I tried sitting down and working through the problems with him. That is what ended up so badly. But, he kept getting things wrong.

 

I would suggest not getting too involved in this process. You'll just make it too big a deal, and end up with both of you disappointed and frustrated. Have you taught him the mantra "Divide, Multiply, Subtract, Bring Down" so that he can recall the steps of the process? Try to remind him "what's next" and give him a chance to take that next step. When he can take that next step, then remind him of the next step. Be patient. Be consistent. And let him know that this is NOT a big deal. Because it's NOT. Assure him that you know he WILL get it, and this is nothing wrong or unusual for a 12 year old boy. It's normal, and he's normal. Try to laugh about it. Really.

 

I know this problems sounds stupid. But, I'm frustrated and so is he. If he doesn't really get division and moves through will he get enough practice to finally "get it".

Yes. If you revisit it periodically. But it's been quite a while since we used MUS, so I'm not sure how to tell you how to best do this using this program. Ideally, I'd move on to a concept that is easier for him, and perhaps even drop the long division for a time. Revisit it later, and you will most likely be very pleased at some point when it just makes sense to him. This happens naturally with Saxon, which is why it worked better for our sons than MUS.

 

Will he "get it" if he keeps doing these problems over and over again. Should I circle the parts he got wrong or just say it's wrong do it till it's correct.

 

Maybe. But that's not how I would approach it. I'd take this approach for careless errors, but not for failure to understand a concept.

[hornblower]

:grouphug:

[Moni]

Do I just keep handing the same page back to him each day till he gets those correct?

 

Yes.

 

Or do 3 problems a day. Or whatever

 

Do I just keep handing the same page back to him each day till he gets those correct?

 

Yes.

:seeya:

[Laurie]

This is such a timely discussion! My dd (12) got stuck when the double digit divisors showed up in Teaching Textbooks. Since we already had the Delta book I decided to have her work through it but then I started to wonder if anyone else has this same feeling about parts of MUS...does it seem like he makes some parts too hard by creating extra steps in an attempt to make it more understandable? (For example, the way he has the students work the division problems in lesson 18 and then use "upside down multiplication" to check their work.)

 

This morning I couldn't take it anymore and we ditched Delta. (I used MUS through Gamma with her before switching to TT and had appreciated MUS up until this book.)

 

I sit with her while she does her math lessons and I'm just going to keep doing this and I plan on giving her more time to work with the bigger divisors. We use a white board with colored pens. I'll write the problem in one color and have her work the problem in another color. Sometimes I'll do the writing as she talks me through the problem. (My dd has dysgraphia, too, and sometimes I think it's just the strain/fatigue from writing that can derail a lesson but she can stick with it if I share some of the writing. Does your ds have any handwriting problems that might be interfering with math?)

 

Hopefully we'll all get through this soon!:grouphug:

[joannqn]

My daughter had a habit of forgetting to bring down the next digit, thus skipping a step. One of the things that worked for her was talking about how many digits that the answer must have. I draw a "spot" above each digit in the dividend. Each spot had to be filled with something, even if it was a zero. Then, after each spot was filled, we could erase the beginning zeros that we didn't need. If she had four spots to fill but her answer only had three numbers, she knew she missed something.

 

This only works when doing division the old way, not the way MUS teaches division.

 

It probably makes a lot more sense to see it demonstrated.

[Oakblossoms]

He has no handwriting problems.

 

We do make sure to put a zero first to hold that space.

 

We aren't doing division like MUS teaches. I'm not making him check his work upside down. Honestly I can barely get the work done. I teach him more traditional division (at least how I was taught) because it seems to make more sense.

 

I think I'm going to not hover over him when he is working. I'm sure I make it worse. It's nice to know we aren't the only ones having problems.

[Lawana]

Something I've done with both dc re double digit division:

1. Give a problem of single digit division, like 286/4. (using traditional notation) This assumes that single digit division has been mastered, and there are no additional issues such as lack of facts mastery.

2. Give the same problem but with the divisor now ending in zero, like 286/40. This illustrates that the numeral in the quotient is the same, but the place is different.

3. Then using the same dividend, start varying the divisor slightly, like 286/39, 286/ 41, 286/42, etc.

Go through many of these. Eventually, it seems to sink in.

 

Repeat in 6 months, as necessary.

 

Lawana

[Janet in WA]

We aren't doing division like MUS teaches. I'm not making him check his work upside down. Honestly I can barely get the work done. I teach him more traditional division (at least how I was taught) because it seems to make more sense.

Well, that could be something to reconsider. Just because it doesn't make sense to us doesn't mean it won't make sense to our children. We are often handicapped by having learned things differently, and we fail to trust the curriculum we've chosen to do its job. If I were you, I'd give your son a chance to learn this concept the way MUS teaches it. Just trust a little, and see what happens. What could it hurt? For all its flaws (at least as it existed back when we used it), I'll admit that MUS had some pretty ingenious ways of teaching concepts, and they can work pretty well if you give them a chance.

[Robin Hood]

I dread math with my dd (11 next week). It is the one thing that ruins home education and makes me want to cave. It makes me the mean mommy. The anxiety in my stomach when the resistance begins has made my kids see the worst in me. I am still trying to plug along though. God bless your effort.

 

Maybe this might help you feel better.

 

http://www.triviumpursuit.com/blog/2007/04/03/teaching-math/

 

And this;

 

http://www.ithaca.edu/compass/storyI-III.htm

[Oakblossoms]

Normally I trust MUS and it's unique approaches. But, he did not like that method. He was fine with division until the digits started growing.

[Mandamom]

Normally I trust MUS and it's unique approaches. But, he did not like that method. He was fine with division until the digits started growing.

 

I would wonder then if he really does understand what it is he is doing. (Yes, I do know that he's getting the problems right :) ).

 

Anyway, this is my process for teaching division

 

1) learn their multiplication facts

 

2) I then create problems such as 6 divided by 5 using the long division symbol (which I can't seem to figure out how to draw one on this text box) and 7 divided by 3 and just using numbers less then 10. They must show every step. On their paper I have them write 1) divide 2) multiply 3) subtract 4) bring down. They will continue to write this down on each page of math problems until they don't need it any longer.

 

3) After they are comfortable with the very simplest of steps I add a number that is bigger than the divisor so no zero is in the quotient ( 64 divided by 4 and 65 divided by 3, etc.). They must show every step

 

After they have done seemingly thousands of these problems I introduce double digit division

 

4) problems such as 11 divided by 10, 20 divided by 10, 40 divided by 30, 50 divided by 20. Again, they must show every step. Usually by this point using the double digit numbers doesn't upset the student because they realize that process is the same. Again, lots and lots of these problems are completed.

 

5) now I'm working with both single digit and double digit problems mixed together with 3 digits in the dividend. 635 divided by 3, 405 divided by 20.

 

6) By this point, they understand the process and the numbers can get quite large.

 

In 5 weeks I used this strategy and got a girl from knowing no division to feeling very comfortable with division including triple digit division.

Edited August 19, 2009 by Mandamom

[Oakblossoms]

I don't think he got enough practice up to this point. I'm hoping the extra practice will help him.