Classical Writing questions

[Pamela H in Texas]

I was just reading their site, but I need input and y'all are fast and clear (and can give me all the answers in one place :) ).

 

This is more for long term planning though I do have a question regarding my son more immediately.

 

First, is it secular or christian?

 

Second, will it work for the ultra-conservative? I noticed that the stories used in Aesop are fun stories. That is fine. However, some of the topics mentioned would be inappropriate for some of my students on religious grounds. Is it just a small amount we can work around? Or am I going to be struggling against "evil wizards" and such all year?

 

Is each book slated for a couple years? Could a student go through faster? Is it unwise to do so?

 

If a student went through WWE 1-4 first, would they just jump into Homer? I see placement info that suggests otherwise, but I'm assuming they are assuming you haven't had the same kind of program previously?

 

What kind of time is required? of parent/teacher? of student?

 

And finally, my son is 14. Has anyone done the 22 week Aesop/Homer study?

 

Thanks a ton :)

Edited July 27, 2009 by 2J5M9K

[Snickerdoodle]

Well, we just started. My understanding is that you can choose your own models. If you buy the Instructor's guide and Student book then the models are already chosen for you. If you just bought the core book and with a little bit of leg work you could use any models you wanted.

[HollyDay]

First, is it secular or christian? some of the models are Christian. Passages of the scriptures are used as models.

 

Second, will it work for the ultra-conservative? I noticed that the stories used in Aesop are fun stories. That is fine. However, some of the topics mentioned would be inappropriate for some of my students on religious grounds. Is it just a small amount we can work around? Or am I going to be struggling against "evil wizards" and such all year? Depends on what bothers your students. There are passages from Beatrix Potter, the battle of Troy, and others.

 

Is each book slated for a couple years? Could a student go through faster? Is it unwise to do so? We did Aesop A and B in a year. But, Homer took us all year.

 

If a student went through WWE 1-4 first, would they just jump into Homer? I see placement info that suggests otherwise, but I'm assuming they are assuming you haven't had the same kind of program previously? Probably, but Homer is tough for the teacher. It took me quite a while to learn it to teach it.

 

What kind of time is required? of parent/teacher? Again, it took me quite a while - probably 2-3 weeks working on it an hour or so a day to learn it. Then again, the style of the author is VERY global and I am more linear. Someone else might think along the same lines as the author and find it easy. of student? It is teacher intensive. You will need to teach it - I found for Homer it took about and hour a day. Then the student needs about an hour.

 

And finally, my son is 14. Has anyone done the 22 week Aesop/Homer study? I would not do Aesop with a 14 year old. It is geared toward a younger student. My 8 turned 9 year old did Aesop A and B easily in a year. Have you looked at the Older Beginners Book?

 

Finally, I am a CW drop out. There are other ladies here who are not and might give you a better picture of the program. It is an excellent program. But, I found it too time consuming. I also found the other curriculums of dc were requiring more essay and reports writing that CW was not teaching. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but CW does not teach essay (report type writing) until much later.

 

Hope some of that helped.

[chai]

First, is it secular or christian? The authors are Christians and use several passages from the KJV as models. There are also hymns studies for poetry in Beginner Poetry B.

 

Second, will it work for the ultra-conservative? I noticed that the stories used in Aesop are fun stories. That is fine. However, some of the topics mentioned would be inappropriate for some of my students on religious grounds. Is it just a small amount we can work around? Or am I going to be struggling against "evil wizards" and such all year? I am not ultra-conservative, so I can only guess. You don't need to worry about evil wizards, but there are many stories from Greek and Roman myths. You could substitute your own models for anything that doesn't fit your beliefs.

 

Is each book slated for a couple years? Could a student go through faster? Is it unwise to do so? I did not use the workbooks for Aesop, but it could be done in a year or stretched out to 2 years. Homer would need 2 years unless you are using it with an older student.

 

If a student went through WWE 1-4 first, would they just jump into Homer? I see placement info that suggests otherwise, but I'm assuming they are assuming you haven't had the same kind of program previously? I think that you could go right to Homer. It is a big jump even if you have done Aesop.

 

What kind of time is required? of parent/teacher? of student? For the student, you should schedule at least an hour every day, four days a week, once you get to Homer. You should add another set of time for grammar. Aesop can be done in less time.

For each program, you need to spend some time before school starts to understand the program. For Homer, reading the Student workbook along with the Core really helped. I needed about 15 minutes to prepare for each week after that. If I were to use my own models, it would be considerably more time than that.

I have needed to be with my dd while she goes through her workbook (around 30 minutes a day). She works on the writing portion alone.

 

 

And finally, my son is 14. Has anyone done the 22 week Aesop/Homer study? No, we started from the beginning.

[dangermom]

If your son is 14, I would say to look at Older Beginners. CW also has a message board where you can ask the authors about this stuff.

 

I love CW, but it took me a lot of study time to wrap my brain around what they're trying to do. It's pretty intensive.

 

I'm not sure what ultra-conservatives could find in CW to object to; it's all classic tales and such. But there are myths.

[Pamela H in Texas]

Thanks y'all.

 

Just to clarify:

 

1) the "evil wizard" thing was taken directly from their website. Anyone that was ultra-conservative would have an issue with a wizard, good or evil. With my own kid, I may find a way to make that model work. With someone else's kid, I wouldn't dare.

 

2) the 22 week study I mentioned was the Older Beginners. I found a very extensive sample so was able to evaluate further.

 

One more question for those who may know. This seems like it would have been THE PERFECT curriculum for my daughter. I wish it were for her I was looking. But as I look at it, it really seems a student would need to have the potential of being an average or better student. Is that a fair thought?

[dangermom]

1) the "evil wizard" thing was taken directly from their website. Anyone that was ultra-conservative would have an issue with a wizard, good or evil. With my own kid, I may find a way to make that model work. With someone else's kid, I wouldn't dare.

Really? Where? I'm only up to beginning Homer, but I'm a little surprised--maybe it was in the context of a fairy tale? There are some fairy tales, like Princess and the Pea. Have you got a link? (I'm just curious, I don't object to fictional evil wizards.)

[Pamela H in Texas]

Reference: http://home.att.net/~classicalwriting/Models.htm

 

Aesop’s fables, Bible stories, historical legends, fairy tales, factual historical accounts, and short narratives on science topics are among our standard models for Aesop and Homer.

Children’s imaginations come to life with tales of bold knights, magic castles, giants, and evil wizards. These tales have well-defined plots containing good or evil characters and instill morality in children by engaging both their minds and their hearts without preaching at them. Four forms of traditional tales are fables, folk tales, myths, and legends. These tales have been told and retold for countless generations.

 

 

 

Anyway, so I just wanted to make sure it was appropriate in a classroom that was trying to respect the beliefs of the ultra-conservative. It sounds like it is tweak-able though.

[HollyDay]

One more question for those who may know. . . . it really seems a student would need to have the potential of being an average or better student. Is that a fair thought?

 

I don't know about the student, but the mom sure needs to be pretty sharp to figure it out :001_smile: Seriously, it is not an easy program to grasp. I think it has quite a few "aha" moments. I also think once it is understand, it is not a difficult program to teach.

 

It is a totally different concept (for me anyway). Parsing sentences is not something I have ever encountered in another curriculum - I'm sure it is out there, but I have not seen it yet. That might make it look above average.

[Mama Lynx]

One more question for those who may know. . . . it really seems a student would need to have the potential of being an average or better student. Is that a fair thought?

 

I don't know about the student, but the mom sure needs to be pretty sharp to figure it out :001_smile: Seriously, it is not an easy program to grasp. I think it has quite a few "aha" moments. I also think once it is understand, it is not a difficult program to teach.

 

It is a totally different concept (for me anyway). Parsing sentences is not something I have ever encountered in another curriculum - I'm sure it is out there, but I have not seen it yet. That might make it look above average.

 

There is a steep learning curve for the teacher, yes; however, once you understand the program, it is extremely adaptable to all levels.

[Amy in CO]

About your son....

My daughter just turned 14 and will be starting 9th grade next week. I planned to do the Aesop/Homer for Older Beginners for the year. Then I saw that they were doing a one month tutorial for the month of August (starts on Monday). Since my daughter has had some experience with narrating and summary, I decided to put her in the one month class, and I will follow along with her each week. I am hoping that doing this class with a tutor will help me grasp the program and we can start with Diogenes Maxim in September.

 

Just thought I would mention it as an option.

Amy

[jenadina]

I'm taking Aesop and Homer in a Month, as well...it's only $75 and doubles as a teacher training course!

[siloam]

Thanks y'all.

 

Just to clarify:

 

1) the "evil wizard" thing was taken directly from their website. Anyone that was ultra-conservative would have an issue with a wizard, good or evil. With my own kid, I may find a way to make that model work. With someone else's kid, I wouldn't dare.

 

2) the 22 week study I mentioned was the Older Beginners. I found a very extensive sample so was able to evaluate further.

 

One more question for those who may know. This seems like it would have been THE PERFECT curriculum for my daughter. I wish it were for her I was looking. But as I look at it, it really seems a student would need to have the potential of being an average or better student. Is that a fair thought?

 

I would actually do WWE 1-3 then do Aesop A & B for 4th, because it begins to lay the foundation of skills that will be continued in Homer. Homer is a pretty big bit on its own, I wouldn't want the child learning to do Aesop skills too.

 

Of the Fairy Tales and Greek Myths used I have found the versions they choose to be moderate. For example I have a version of Rapunzel that implies a marital relationship and children without them being married, but the version CW uses doesn't have either children or a hint of anything inappropriate.

 

Heather

 

[Verity]

Reference: http://home.att.net/~classicalwriting/Models.htm

 

 

 

Anyway, so I just wanted to make sure it was appropriate in a classroom that was trying to respect the beliefs of the ultra-conservative. It sounds like it is tweak-able though.

 

I am knew to CW, just got my Primer and Aesop's but looking at the content the only evil wizard I can think of is the one from Shakespeare (the story on the island with the princess and her wizard father? drawing a blank this morning).... so if your parents would have issues with Shakespeare (and he used magic a good bit, "Midsummer's Night Dream", etc) then they might have issues with the greek and roman myths as well. I guess it would depend on the parents. You can always choose different readings. Strictly biblical?

[Testimony]

I am currently doing Homer A with my oldest son right now. We just finished lesson 14 of Classical Writing Homer A. I have found no wizardry or socery, etc. I found three parables from the Bible that my son and I had a great time analyzing and dissecting. So, I am confused about the wizardry.

 

I have found Classical Writing Homer A to be a challenge because they want to child to do so much in one day. I actually extended it to 5 days because we could not do it all in 4 days. We have to do the writing project in pieces every day and then by Friday we can finish the final draft. We have to write a summary in a sentence then in a paragraph. We have to modify a sentence 4 different ways. We have dictation and vocabulary analysis and parsing and diagramming. AAA!

 

I have made Classical Writing Homer A into my full language arts program. I do not need another vocabulary program, diagramming, dictation, etc with this curriculum. The curriculum has it all. I am not purchasing anything else. The program is expensive too.

 

Blessings,

Karen

http://www.homeschoolblogger.com/testimony

[Verity]

I was looking through a catalog I got in the mail from Memoria Press and noticed something that might be useful for you, at least with your younger students. They offer "copybooks" using Old Testament, New Testament, Psalms and shorter poems from Robert Louis Stevenson and others. For a conservative parent these would be unexceptional (if you are concerned about the mythology aspect).

 

http://www.memoriapress.com/descriptions/Copy-Books.html

[Guest Alte Veste Academy]

I would actually do WWE 1-3 then do Aesop A & B for 4th, because it begins to lay the foundation of skills that will be continued in Homer. Homer is a pretty big bit on its own, I wouldn't want the child learning to do Aesop skills too.

 

I'm watching this with interest as I'm trying to figure out where I'll go after WWE/FLL. I had planned on doing that 1-4 but I'm interested in CW and I see the Primer for 2nd now. I'm wondering how it compares to WWE. It's interesting that you say to start Aesop A & B for 4th instead of continuing on with WWE 4 in 4th and then moving on to Homer in 5th, or even backtracking and doing Aesop in 5th grade (although I get what's being said about a learning curve with Homer, which I suppose makes starting with Aesop easier for teacher). Does Aesop teach the same skills as WWE 4? Then, of course, there is the not insignificant fact that SWB is going to be putting out her own logic stage writing program (probably well before my littles get there...lucky me!).

 

Your thoughts are greatly appreciated!

[siloam]

I'm watching this with interest as I'm trying to figure out where I'll go after WWE/FLL. I had planned on doing that 1-4 but I'm interested in CW and I see the Primer for 2nd now. I'm wondering how it compares to WWE. It's interesting that you say to start Aesop A & B for 4th instead of continuing on with WWE 4 in 4th and then moving on to Homer in 5th, or even backtracking and doing Aesop in 5th grade (although I get what's being said about a learning curve with Homer, which I suppose makes starting with Aesop easier for teacher). Does Aesop teach the same skills as WWE 4? Then, of course, there is the not insignificant fact that SWB is going to be putting out her own logic stage writing program (probably well before my littles get there...lucky me!).

 

Your thoughts are greatly appreciated!

 

Eventually when SWB has her program out, I am sure hers will be the more popular because it will be easier to use. That said I will already own CW, so I will continue with CW.

 

I looked at the Primer and for our needs it doesn't interest me. Not having used it it is hard to say for sue, but to me it doesn't appear to have much dictation and I already own other curriculum that teach most of the same stuff. FLL 1/2 for grammar, then JAG (which I use with Aesop because I don't want to figure out the review grammar in Aesop on my own-yes I am lazy ;) ). Punctuation is extensively covered in SL LA that I use. CM type narration I do with Bible and own nice narration sheets to go with. I don't see where it works on summary type narration, which is the one piece I don't have. That is why WWE is a better fit for me, it has the dictation I love, and the summary narration I need.

 

Now I haven't read the whole WWE book, but I have the SWB WWE CD. From what I remember the big difference between level 3 and 4 is the child begins to write on their own, and I assume work with longer dictation passages. In my mind it would be pretty easy to transfer using those skills to CW. You can have the child summarize the model, and even write out their summary. I have my kids do all their writing on the computer, so here that wouldn't' conflict with the CW type re-write of the model. Given CW already has dictation you could continue working with longer passages there.

 

You could also look at going the other way. Using WWE as a base and applying Aesop skills. You would first have the child do a summary as stated in WWE, you would then also have them do a CM type narration, a rewrite. They can change the setting and characters as they wish for the rewrite as long as they keep the moral, so that would shake it up a little. You would continue to do the writing steps laid out in Aesop where you then take your rewrite and add quotations, then descriptive detail. The other big piece in Aesop that is carried forward in Homer is the vocab, so you could have the child (or you) find vocab words from the model, and have them look them up. They also encourage phonetic analysis in Aesop that is similar to what The Writing Road to Reading or Spell to Read and Write teaches. It is actually pretty simple stuff if you have a list of phonograms, which seems extremely hard to find at least that include their sounds, but if you don't want to go there I suspect you won't be alone. If you do go this route you would just need the Aesop Core.

 

Starting Aesop in 5th is a good possibility, it just puts you "behind" in the CW program....would that drive you nuts? You could also just skip Aesop, but then I would allow a little extra time for the child to ramp up. In Aesop it has the child learn these skills one at a time in a pretty gentle manner. They aren't that difficult though. I would plan to do Homer A over two weeks for a while till the child was comfortable with the skills and then speed things up to normal pace.

 

In my mind it is just easier to modify CW to fit WWE methods than to modify WWE to fit Aesop.

 

Heather

 

 

 

[Guest Alte Veste Academy]

Eventually when SWB has her program out, I am sure hers will be the more popular because it will be easier to use. That said I will already own CW, so I will continue with CW.

 

I looked at the Primer and for our needs it doesn't interest me. Not having used it it is hard to say for sue, but to me it doesn't appear to have much dictation and I already own other curriculum that teach most of the same stuff. FLL 1/2 for grammar, then JAG (which I use with Aesop because I don't want to figure out the review grammar in Aesop on my own-yes I am lazy ;) ). Punctuation is extensively covered in SL LA that I use. CM type narration I do with Bible and own nice narration sheets to go with. I don't see where it works on summary type narration, which is the one piece I don't have. That is why WWE is a better fit for me, it has the dictation I love, and the summary narration I need.

 

Now I haven't read the whole WWE book, but I have the SWB WWE CD. From what I remember the big difference between level 3 and 4 is the child begins to write on their own, and I assume work with longer dictation passages. In my mind it would be pretty easy to transfer using those skills to CW. You can have the child summarize the model, and even write out their summary. I have my kids do all their writing on the computer, so here that wouldn't' conflict with the CW type re-write of the model. Given CW already has dictation you could continue working with longer passages there.

 

You could also look at going the other way. Using WWE as a base and applying Aesop skills. You would first have the child do a summary as stated in WWE, you would then also have them do a CM type narration, a rewrite. They can change the setting and characters as they wish for the rewrite as long as they keep the moral, so that would shake it up a little. You would continue to do the writing steps laid out in Aesop where you then take your rewrite and add quotations, then descriptive detail. The other big piece in Aesop that is carried forward in Homer is the vocab, so you could have the child (or you) find vocab words from the model, and have them look them up. They also encourage phonetic analysis in Aesop that is similar to what The Writing Road to Reading or Spell to Read and Write teaches. It is actually pretty simple stuff if you have a list of phonograms, which seems extremely hard to find at least that include their sounds, but if you don't want to go there I suspect you won't be alone. If you do go this route you would just need the Aesop Core.

 

Starting Aesop in 5th is a good possibility, it just puts you "behind" in the CW program....would that drive you nuts? You could also just skip Aesop, but then I would allow a little extra time for the child to ramp up. In Aesop it has the child learn these skills one at a time in a pretty gentle manner. They aren't that difficult though. I would plan to do Homer A over two weeks for a while till the child was comfortable with the skills and then speed things up to normal pace.

 

In my mind it is just easier to modify CW to fit WWE methods than to modify WWE to fit Aesop.

 

Heather

 

Thanks so much, Heather! You're a treasure trove! You've made (for me, anyway:001_smile:) a pretty convincing argument to do as you said in your first post and transition to Aesop in 4th grade. That will be my plan now (at least until I see what SWB's program looks like.) Then I won't be late with the rest of the program and, yes, that would make me nuts. :D

 

Thanks again!