S/O: Double dipping on the transcipt

[Sunshine State Sue]

So, this thread got me thinking. We are a year away from high school and I am trying to understand how the transcipts work.

 

I went to a high school seminar last summer and one of the things the presenter talked about was double dipping. From her handbook:

It is legitimate to double dip...count one class experience as more than one credit. This is what dual enrollment is all about at community colleges. The student receives high school credit and a college credit for the same class and thus the title double dipping which is done with ice cream cones. You dip your vanilla ice cream in chocolate and sprinkles; same cone, two toppings. That is basis for the logic behind creating various classes from an interdisciplinary educational approach to establish credits.

 

Would you count time spent on dance as both PE and performing arts on a transcript? Say, awarding 1 credit for each. Why or why not?

 

Can anyone provide me with examples of double dipping on their child's transcript?

 

Thanks!

Edited July 19, 2009 by Sue in St Pete

[HollyinNNV]

I'll be really interested in the responses. I just can't imagine trying to explain myself, IF, I double-dipped.

[K-FL]

From my limited experience---For classes like PE, we counted hours and applied them to one category. In the dance example however, I may count reg. lessons as PE, but rehearsal/performance/recital hours as Fine Arts. Our truest double dip was dd#1 designing book covers as a way of doing book reports. We also counted the hours it took to do all the cover art as Graphic Design (computer) class.

[2cents]

I just made a transcript and have no problems with double-dipping as long as the units are legitimately interchangeable. Personally, I didn't have to double-dip because we had more than enough units for the required classes but had the need arisen and I had a class that honestly met both requirements, I would have done it. It is my school...my rules. My rules say double-dipping is efficient too!;)

[Mama Lynx]

In the dance example, for the same amount of time invested the child

 

1) maintained a physical fitness regimen, and

 

2) practiced, learned about, and performed a fine art

 

I would have no trouble counting both.

 

If you do WTM Great Books, you count the class as credits for literature *and* history. Of course, you do spend a good deal of time on the subject, as well.

 

The college I went to counted my high school Spanish courses as fulfilling the high school requirement, *and* part of my college language requirement.

 

I think it shouldn't be done lightly, but there are many legitimate times to double dip.

 

Isn't Saxon Physics often considered a math elective, as well? Or an advanced math course?

[Susan C.]

At my son's college, they don't give credits for both, but both requirements are fulfilled. So credit for one, a check mark for the other as completed.

[HollyinNNV]

I think we need to define double-dipping. I think we are talking about two (or more) different things here.

 

Scenario #1: I teach a literature class. We read books. We respond by writing several essays, edit the essays and discuss the ways to formulate a literary essay. Because of the amount of work, I call this two classes:

Composition

Literature

 

Scenario #2: I teach a harp class. We play lots of music. I call this two classes:

Advanced Harp Studies

Music Appreciation

 

In scenario #1 there are two different tasks: reading & writing. So I can see how this could be two classes, given there was enough work assigned to consider it two classes.

 

In scenario #2 there is one task: play the harp. I would only call that one credit. I can't imagine trying to explain how I gave that two different designations. Yes, dd does do some music history, music theory, and performance practices in her harp class. But, that is all part of a typical harp studies class.

 

There is a fine line here. I suppose we'll all draw it somewhere, but count me in the single-scoop camp.

Holly

[Mama Lynx]

It's close, but it's not the same.

 

You're right, I would not count that as music appreciation, unless there were specific listening exercises and literature study along with the practice and performance. You really are, only, learning to play music on the harp.

 

OTOH, in the dance example, that *is* an acceptable fine art credit, and it is also, undoubtedly, a physical exercise regimen. It seems silly to require someone spending that much time on dance to then also do a PE credit, when the point of the PE credit is exercise.

[MyThreeSons]

If my student writes a paper for history, for example, I might count the time spent towards both composition and history.

[tex-mex]

On another board, I was informed this cannot be done... ??? I think it can be a sticky wicket if not properly documented in a portfolio and transcript. Love to hear the replies to this question.

 

BTW, according to an HSLDA Conference I attended, a dual credit course at a community college counts as the following:

 

1 semester CC course = 1 year high school credit (on transcript)

 

Double dipping is not encouraged by the HSLDA gal who spoke on the subject... but encouraged us to take advantage of dual credit courses to fufill High School credits if you are needing credits for graduation.

Edited July 18, 2009 by tex-mex

[Mama Lynx]

Of course I can do it.

 

Now, whether it looks good to the college, or whether it serves the child's best interest are other questions - and better ones.

 

But sure, I can :)

[LizzyBee]

I think counting the same class for 1 high school and 1 college credit is different from counting the same class as 2 high school credits. I would not count 1 class as 2 high school credits unless the time invested in the class would justify 2 credits.

[Sunshine State Sue]

Of course I can do it.

 

Now, whether it looks good to the college, or whether it serves the child's best interest are other questions - and better ones.

 

But sure, I can :)

Good point! :001_smile:

[Sunshine State Sue]

I think counting the same class for 1 high school and 1 college credit is different from counting the same class as 2 high school credits. I would not count 1 class as 2 high school credits unless the time invested in the class would justify 2 credits.

This makes sense to me. Thanks.

[FloridaLisa]

I think counting the same class for 1 high school and 1 college credit is different from counting the same class as 2 high school credits. I would not count 1 class as 2 high school credits unless the time invested in the class would justify 2 credits.

 

Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking. With dual-enrolloment, you have two different institutions counting the same study toward their diploma requirements. In the OP's example, it would be the same institution using the same study for two different courses. Different scenarios.

 

Lisa

[CO MOM]

I guess I always thought of it more as counting the same activity as different things in different years or semesters rather than counting it for more than one thing at the same time. For example, with dance, if this was something your child did every year, maybe one year's credit would be for P.E., another year's could be for fine arts - or you could do 1/2 and 1/2. If another year they taught dance as well, that could be represented as a leadership activity or it could be listed as an extra-curricular activity instead of an academic credit in some years.

 

I know in TOG, for example, if you give a history credit, you don't also give an additional geography credit even if you do the geography assignments or if you give an English credit, you don't also give an additional lit credit even though that was part of it.

[Janet in WA]

We didn't double-dip for high school credits, and I wouldn't personally do it. Our sons did earn both high school and college credit for taking cc classes, but I don't think that's the same thing as receiving two high school credits for the same work.

[LoriM]

Most my dd's high school work was transcurricular (I think I just made that word up). That is, most "writing" assignments were in history or science, many "literature" assignments were history (or even science or math), most rhetoric presentations were in science, and virtually all of her PE impacted her "health."

 

OF COURSE we "double-dipped." That was the POINT of transcurricular assignments! That was the power of hsing! We spent time designing her assignments to enhance her *life* not create busy work that fulfilled the requirements of a "course." If she wanted to do that, she could have gone to PS! LOL! Why write three essays in one week to meet the requirements of history, science and composition, when I can certainly judge her research composition skills from a nicely written paper on a scientist from the time period we were studying? :) Poof, one paper--science, history, English.

 

And, naturally all those courses she took toward her AA counted on her transcript as high school courses too. :)

[coopers5]

Just want to bring up the whole issue of counting extracurriculars. By definition, these activities should be things outside the curriculum.

 

So, I feel it is the best representation if we do not "double dip" in this arena. This is sort of another angle to this thread, I think, that hadn't been talked about, so I thought I'd toss out there. Remember that colleges REALLY DO want to see that the student can juggle the academic, the required, with the "extra," the non-required. I really honestly don't see how this can be carefully, thoughtfully represented if these things are all jumbled up, double counted, or cross-applied all over the place.

 

So, for example, say my daughter spends several hrs. a week in the dance studio disciplining her mind and body in this way - the first year of h.s. (or first year she does this) I might make it her P.E. credit, but in subsequent years would leave it off the transcript as far as credits go and feel perfectly fine to then call it "extracurricular."

 

Does that make sense?

Also, in relation to the several posts regarding the fact that there's a difference betw. counting dual credit as a h.s. credit and as college vs. counting a h.s. course as two h.s. credits - I agree w/these thoughts - there is a difference, and we should be careful there.

We should always remember, in our freedom to do what we want, there will be countless families coming behind us - even our grandchildren, etc. - whose way we will want to have paved with much thought and care. We always want to keep in mind upholding the "good name" of homeschooling wherever we can, in effort to make it easier for our posterity to homeschool, should they so desire, rather than more difficult.

 

Just food for thought.

 

HTH!

Jo

Edited July 19, 2009 by coopers5
spelling

[Mama Lynx]

This is exactly what I was thinking of.

 

I don't really think of the transcript linearly. In the dance example, a committed dance student will be spending several hours a week on dance for more than one year. The transcript may need a fine arts credit, and a PE credit. Dance can be sued for both, because it's being done over multiple years. Or, as stated above, half and half.

[K-FL]

:iagree: Some years I counted drama/sports/music things as a credit, others as extra. Some of it had to do w/if we needed to fill in a credit, some w/if I'd bothered to count hours. The great thing about homeschooling is I can adjust the transcript as I see fit. I only did one transcript (except I did do one for NCAA that included 8th grade hs classes to fit their needs), but if I feel the dc need more credits, I'll do things that way.

[PeterPan]

Sue, I can only speak to my experience evaluating transcripts at a university for a year, but here's my take. Obviously no one here wants to do something unethical or illogical like counting one amount of work twice. But it seems there are some fundamental things, basics, getting lost here.

 

-Credits refer to work/material covered, while units refer to time spent. -A student can easily earn 2-3 credits for an interdisciplinary class (Omnibus, integrated calc/physics class, etc.), IF they put in the time. There's nothing unusual about that at all.

-The high school (or your homeschool) sets its standards for what it will accept as a means to get credits to graduate, and that has NOTHING to do with what the college thinks. For instance, at the university I worked at, all dual enrollment courses were scratched off when tallying minimum standards for enrollment. Their policy was that you got credit for one or the other, but not both. YOU can do whatever you want on a transcript or for your graduation requirements, but a given college or university will handle it how they want. Now I did not see any students whose credits were so close as to have that policy result in deficiencies for admission, but it could theoretically happen. Moral of the story: don't cut your credits close.

-Colleges accept at face value what you, as a homeschooler, are saying. This isn't rocket science. Just put down what you did, in a logical fashion, using terminology they can recognize. Your testing is what validates your claims, not the grade letters you assign or long reading lists (sorry).

 

As far as extra-curriculars, we scratched off from our consideration and tallying anything that was stuff other, non-homeschooled kids would have done normally as an extra-curricular. In other words, you can call it what you want, but the university will do with it what they want. So if you're going to count 5.5 hours a week of dance as PE (which might be reasonable), then I suggest you simply label it as PE, put the appropriate credit markings, and move on. But again, being generous in your preparation, with plenty of credits for everything, is going to make this a non-issue.

 

I haven't worked in other schools, I can't speak to how other colleges/universities handle it.

 

So there, that got kind of long! I'm sure in that session they already explained to you the differences between credits and units. I was mainly wanting to add the thought that while you can mark things the way you want, the college may have a different take. Like I said, at the university I worked at, dual enrollment courses were not counted toward admission without deficiencies, and we very closely checked for it. Even though it's common for people to count dual enrollment classes toward high school graduation, I would check with your prospective universities to make sure they count them toward entrance requirements for entering without deficiencies. Breaking an interdisciplinary class into its components (Omnibus, etc.) is FINE, as long as they put in the time each day (or as a total of the week) to earn the units.

 

Don't stress over this. It's not as hard as people are making it sound. You'll do great! :)

[Rita]

Sue, I can only speak to my experience evaluating transcripts at a university for a year, but here's my take. Obviously no one here wants to do something unethical or illogical like counting one amount of work twice. But it seems there are some fundamental things, basics, getting lost here.

 

- Now I did not see any students whose credits were so close as to have that policy result in deficiencies for admission, but it could theoretically happen. Moral of the story: don't cut your credits close.

 

Like I said, at the university I worked at, dual enrollment courses were not counted toward admission without deficiencies, and we very closely checked for it. Even though it's common for people to count dual enrollment classes toward high school graduation, I would check with your prospective universities to make sure they count them toward entrance requirements for entering without deficiencies. Breaking an interdisciplinary class into its components (Omnibus, etc.) is FINE, as long as they put in the time each day (or as a total of the week) to earn the units.

 

Don't stress over this. It's not as hard as people are making it sound. You'll do great! :)

 

Thanks for a really insightful post! I am, however, confused about this "admission without deficiencies". I am sorry to admit my ignorance, but I have no idea what you are talking about :)

Would you mind explaining this term please?

Thanks!

Rita

[PeterPan]

Sure! If you look in the admissions materials from your prospective colleges/universities, they will tell you their requirements for entrance without deficiencies. Every school varies. Some may break it down into particular categories (science, foreign language, etc.), where others (like the school where I worked) may have overall requirements. Iirc, the school where I worked was looking for a minimum something-# academic units (math, science, that sort of thing, heavy academic subjects) and a TOTAL number of units. So as long as students met both those criterion on their transcripts and their test scores checked out, they could enter without deficiencies. Theoretically, if a student enters with deficiencies, he would have to complete courses his first year that went toward meeting those deficiencies. Those courses would not count toward his degree, but only toward meeting entrance deficiencies, hence the big motivation NOT to have deficiencies. With homeschoolers often wanting to graduate early, count things in a non-standard way, etc., it's definitely something to be aware of.

 

If I recall correctly from another school I attended, they did testing to determine who entered with deficiencies, and you had to take make-up courses to get to those skill levels in english, math, etc. So every school has their own policy. It's all in their printed materials, exactly what they're looking for. That's not a discussion of how to be a competitive applicant at a selective school, merely how to avoid deficiencies when applying to a less competitive school. :)

[Sunshine State Sue]

So there, that got kind of long! I'm sure in that session they already explained to you the differences between credits and units. I was mainly wanting to add the thought that while you can mark things the way you want, the college may have a different take. Like I said, at the university I worked at, dual enrollment courses were not counted toward admission without deficiencies, and we very closely checked for it. Even though it's common for people to count dual enrollment classes toward high school graduation, I would check with your prospective universities to make sure they count them toward entrance requirements for entering without deficiencies. Breaking an interdisciplinary class into its components (Omnibus, etc.) is FINE, as long as they put in the time each day (or as a total of the week) to earn the units.

 

Don't stress over this. It's not as hard as people are making it sound. You'll do great! :)

On the contrary, I'm more confused than ever. :confused:

 

We did talk about a Carnegie Unit: 50min x 5days/wk x 36weeks = 150 hours

 

Then we talked about how much of that time is lost to due to: taking roll, dealing with discipline problems, announcements, handing out papers, rallies, etc. and how 100 hrs "on task" is acceptable for homeschoolers.

 

We talked about establishing a credit in various ways:

tracking [100] hours of contact with a subject

finishing the book

mastery of the material

combination of the above

 

Now you are really scaring me because I think you are saying that I can't count any community college courses towards high school credit? I plan on ds taking lots of cc classes because I'm not teaching foreign language or science at the high school level.

 

This is from the Georgia Tech website:

High School GPA/ Rigor of Curriculum

 

We recalculate your high school GPA. We use a standard 4.0 grading scale, but only factor in the core curriculum courses (see below). For students taking AP, IB, or College level classes, we award an additional one-half point (0.5) for each course.

Core Curriculum: Grading Scale:

English (4 Units) A = 4.0

Math (4 Units) B = 3.0

Science (3 Units) C = 2.0

Social Science (3 Units) D = 1.0

Foreign Language (2 Units) F = 0.0

 

So, they certainly don't scratch college courses. I wouldn't think that was common. But, maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

[PeterPan]

Ok, what Georgia is describing is very similar to what we did, discriminating academic from non-academic courses and recalculating the GPA. What they're saying is they weight harder (college level, AP, and IB) classes in that process. What I said is our university did not count classes for which the student got COLLEGE CREDIT (as in going toward a college degree) as meeting requirements for HIGH SCHOOL credit to enter without deficiencies. And yes, I'm guessing every school has a different policy. It's a real stickywicket, and I think more kids are doing this now than they were 10-15 years ago; policies may have changed.

 

As far as the hours, we're talking the same thing. Carnegie units refer to time (150 hours) where credits refer to amount of material covered. If you cover 2 math books in one year working at 5 days a week, then that might be 2 credits but it's only one unit. But if the student worked double, as in two one-hour sessions, 5 days a week for a year, than that's two units. See the difference?

 

Don't make the thing with time hard. When I helped moms on the phone, I simply asked if they basically worked 5 days a week for a year, 5 days a week for a semester, 2-3 days a week for a year, or 2-3 days a week for a semester. No one is coming with a calculator and table to make sure, haha, and some students are more effective and efficient with their time than others. But you know whether it was a 5 day a week, full-pace course for a year or not. And if they do it in a non-standard way (more time, less days per week), then you use your best judgment as to whether that was working double sessions on those days or not. But again, people can put what they want and schools will tweak when they do their evaluations. For instance, if a dc struggles with math and you decide to spread out algebra 1 over two years, well tough, they're still only getting one unit, even though they worked for two years. ;)

 

A lot of it is just common sense and translating what you're doing into something they can understand.

[Sunshine State Sue]

What I said is our university did not count classes for which the student got COLLEGE CREDIT (as in going toward a college degree) as meeting requirements for HIGH SCHOOL credit to enter without deficiencies.

Got it! What a relief. I intend to count cc classes towards high school requirements only.

 

Don't make the thing with time hard. When I helped moms on the phone, I simply asked if they basically worked 5 days a week for a year, 5 days a week for a semester, 2-3 days a week for a year, or 2-3 days a week for a semester. No one is coming with a calculator and table to make sure, haha, and some students are more effective and efficient with their time than others. But you know whether it was a 5 day a week, full-pace course for a year or not. And if they do it in a non-standard way (more time, less days per week), then you use your best judgment as to whether that was working double sessions on those days or not.

This makes sense and makes it easy.

 

Thanks!

[K-FL]

Sue,

I think you're over thinking this.

 

A credit is a completed class. You decide what's a completed class: finish the book, x # of hours, or a benchmark met. It's your school, you decide. The # of hours varies from 80 to 180, again, you decide what you think/feel is adequate.

 

As to the GA Tech info, they just want to see that much credit for each subject for admissions. Even those aren't written in stone. You can cover those in the 1st year or 2 of U--it just will make it harder to complete in 4 yrs. They'll give extra weight to cc/AP etc classes. Personally I just figured the GPA unweighted. I figured they'd give more weight to the cc classes if they wanted to.

 

 

The example OhElizabeth gave is a new one on me (not that it's inaccurate.) The 5 colleges dd#1 applied to didn't question her cc dual-enrollment credits. 3 were in state privates, 2 out of state privates. I agree w/her last statement that things have changed in the last 10-15 yrs. Kids finish hs now w/so many AP & dual credits that it's more rare for a kid not to have them than to have them.

 

As to the credit counting as both, any college will ask for a transcript from the other schools the kid has attended. That includes cc classes. The college may or may not grant credit for those classes. If your dc stay in FL, all state schools are equal--meaning the Freshman Comp from your cc is the same as taking it at U of So. Fl.

Edited July 19, 2009 by K-FL

[PeterPan]

The college or university you apply to isn't going to report back to you with how they analyzed your transcript, what the results were, etc., so it's something you as a parent wouldn't realize, unless of course you had something that created red flags or problems. All of this process is internal. The clerk analyzes the transcript, spills red ink over it (or whatever the modern, techie way is), then inputs numbers into a computer. You as the parent never know about it. That's why I'm telling you. :)

 

And no, a book completed is NOT a unit, only a credit. That's the fundamental difference. A credit is for work completed, where a unit is time spent. Usually they coincide, but not necessarily.

 

And yes, it's much easier and more natural than people make it seem.

[Janet in WA]

 

Got it! What a relief. I intend to count cc classes towards high school requirements only.

You have no choice. Those cc classes will count as college credit. When your child applies to a future university or college, you will be required to have transcripts sent from the cc even for classes taken as dual-enrollment. But I'd take Elizabeth's advice and not worry about it. Actually, I've never heard of anyone having problems due to what Elizabeth describes.

[PeterPan]

In high school I took numerous classes at the next door university that counted only for high school credits, because I didn't pay the extra fees (tuition) to receive college credit. I don't know if the set-up my school had was unusual? Does it cost as much to audit as to take a college class for credit? In any case, there are cases where you do that. As you say, IF you take the course for credit and receive a grade, that transcript is going to your college or university. I think my high school had an arrangement, because of the proximity, where we could take classes, receive no college credit, but have the professor turn in a grade to the high school.

 

Again, that whole spiel was about entering without deficiencies. It should say in their literature what their minimums are. The numbers I'm remembering, from where I worked, were something like 14 units total, 10 of which must be academic. Most homeschoolers would get that, even if they sent their dc off for the last two years at a cc entirely, which is why it's typically not an issue.

[K-FL]

In high school I took numerous classes at the next door university that counted only for high school credits, because I didn't pay the extra fees (tuition) to receive college credit. I don't know if the set-up my school had was unusual? Does it cost as much to audit as to take a college class for credit? In any case, there are cases where you do that.

 

Don't know about other places, but here in FL, the classes are reg. cc classes. My dd(s) have been in classes w/people of all ages, paying reg. fees. Occasionally I've heard of them sending a prof. to the hs to offer classes, but they're still the same classes he teaches on campus. In our case, the $ comes from the state & if memory serves, they only pay if it's dual credit.

[Sunshine State Sue]

Don't know about other places, but here in FL, the classes are reg. cc classes. My dd(s) have been in classes w/people of all ages, paying reg. fees. Occasionally I've heard of them sending a prof. to the hs to offer classes, but they're still the same classes he teaches on campus. In our case, the $ comes from the state & if memory serves, they only pay if it's dual credit.

Yes, cc is free here for high schoolers who can pass the placement test. Probably due to the miserable public high school options (ex. 50% graduation rate).

[Mama Lynx]

In high school I took numerous classes at the next door university that counted only for high school credits, because I didn't pay the extra fees (tuition) to receive college credit. I don't know if the set-up my school had was unusual? Does it cost as much to audit as to take a college class for credit? In any case, there are cases where you do that. As you say, IF you take the course for credit and receive a grade, that transcript is going to your college or university. I think my high school had an arrangement, because of the proximity, where we could take classes, receive no college credit, but have the professor turn in a grade to the high school.

 

Again, that whole spiel was about entering without deficiencies. It should say in their literature what their minimums are. The numbers I'm remembering, from where I worked, were something like 14 units total, 10 of which must be academic. Most homeschoolers would get that, even if they sent their dc off for the last two years at a cc entirely, which is why it's typically not an issue.

 

In VA, you have to pay tuition to take the cc class. If you do it under the dual enrollment plan, it counts for both high school and college credit. Most VA colleges have agreements regarding that credit as transfer credit, and a student who earns an AA at the cc is guaranteed admission to many VA institutions.

 

There are some exceptions, such as the U. of Va. will not accept dual enrollment foreign language as counting for the high school foreign language requirement.

[K-FL]

Yes, cc is free here for high schoolers who can pass the placement test. Probably due to the miserable public high school options (ex. 50% graduation rate).

 

That's why it's college & hs credit--the placement test is the same if you're 15 or 45yo. I don't think the ps record is the reason as it's a state-wide program (I'm in the Keys.) If your hs has a 90% or 10% grad rate, the program is available, just like Bright Futures since the $$ all comes from the lottery.

[PeterPan]

There are some exceptions, such as the U. of Va. will not accept dual enrollment foreign language as counting for the high school foreign language requirement.

 

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You want to ask if what your prospective school's policy is if you're coming in with a lot of dual enrollment.

 

I think the deal my high school had cut was that we audited the university classes (low fees to the high school) and only got cc if we ourselves coughed up the big bucks for the tuition. I didn't have the big bucks, so I got no credit.