Can't believe I am asking: CLAA question

[happygrrl]

All of the sudden I am thinking about CLAA. I can't believe this, because we are happily following LCC.... perhaps it was that last post quoting Mr. Campbell's thoughts on CLAA.... who knows! What intrigues me is the fact that my oldest has LD's and requires a great deal of one-on-one time. My others are bored, because I am not able to get to them as often as needed. CLAA would allow them to be more independant and I can spend the time with thr oldest. I am not sure the format and rigor of CLAA would work for him, so I would likely continue with LCC with him.

 

I have a few questions and am hoping to hear from those using the program, or any one else who knows more than I do about it (which at this point is jsut about everyone! ;)) I am reading through previous posts on this forum, the LCC Yahoo group, and the CLAA family forum, so feel free to link to those.

 

What ages are currently using the Grammar 1? I know that it claims to be appropriate for any age, so perhaps it is the pace that is different for each age.

 

Also- and I don't mean to open any worm cans or offend any one- we are not Catholic. We are, however, Eastern Orthodox, and many of the "requirements" mentioned regarding a Catholic Christian culture are ones that we have in commmon (Sacraments, calendar, Tradition and Scripture, etc.) We would not be doing a Catholic Catechism as we have Orthodox studies that we do. (Do you have to enroll in Catechism BTW?) I am curious as to how the specifics of the faith are integrated in the non-Catechism classes.

 

Well, as I re-read this it seems that I am being rather vague. This is becasue I am *feeling* rather vague! Thanks for reading this far! :)

[iwka]

All of the sudden I am thinking about CLAA. I can't believe this, because we are happily following LCC.... perhaps it was that last post quoting Mr. Campbell's thoughts on CLAA.... who knows! What intrigues me is the fact that my oldest has LD's and requires a great deal of one-on-one time. My others are bored, because I am not able to get to them as often as needed. CLAA would allow them to be more independant and I can spend the time with thr oldest. I am not sure the format and rigor of CLAA would work for him, so I would likely continue with LCC with him.

 

You are right on that it will free you, because your other kids could study more independently.

 

I have a few questions and am hoping to hear from those using the program, or any one else who knows more than I do about it (which at this point is jsut about everyone! ;)) I am reading through previous posts on this forum, the LCC Yahoo group, and the CLAA family forum, so feel free to link to those.

 

Truly the best place to ask all of your questions is the CLAA Forum. If you want to use it to the full benefit, you need to register, as only few of the topics are available to browse without registration.

 

What ages are currently using the Grammar 1? I know that it claims to be appropriate for any age, so perhaps it is the pace that is different for each age.

 

My kids are not signed up to CLAA, but it seems that kids as young as 5 or 6 can take the course, as well as the adults. The pace would differ greatly, of course. It is easier if the child can read independently to take this course.

 

Also- and I don't mean to open any worm cans or offend any one- we are not Catholic. We are, however, Eastern Orthodox, and many of the "requirements" mentioned regarding a Catholic Christian culture are ones that we have in commmon (Sacraments, calendar, Tradition and Scripture, etc.) We would not be doing a Catholic Catechism as we have Orthodox studies that we do. (Do you have to enroll in Catechism BTW?) I am curious as to how the specifics of the faith are integrated in the non-Catechism classes.

 

I think an Eastern Orthodox would adjust much easier to the CLAA than a Protestant. You don't have to take Catechism.

 

Just in case you missed it: (I missed it browsing around for the first two days or so), this is the page with the possible arrangements (Petty School, Standard, Prep, Extern):

http://www.classicalliberalarts.com/admissions/index.htm

 

this is the page where you can see the sequence of the classes:

http://www.classicalliberalarts.com/curriculum/index.htm

 

Well, as I re-read this it seems that I am being rather vague. This is becasue I am *feeling* rather vague! Thanks for reading this far! :)

 

blessings

Edited June 22, 2009 by iwka

[happygrrl]

 

Truly the best place to ask all of your questions is the CLAA Forum. If you want to use it to the full benefit, you need to register, as only few of the topics are available to browse without registration.

 

 

this is the page where you can see the sequence of the classes:

http://www.classicalliberalarts.com/curriculum/index.htm

 

blessings

 

aHA! I wondered why everyone kept referring to the forum, but all I could see were a few posts. I'll go register. I feel silly for missing the obvious. :001_smile: I also missed that link.. that's next. Thanks so much!

[Renee in NC]

One of the things I like about CLAA is that it is entirely self-paced. The student works on one lesson until it is mastered and then moves onto the next. This is how schools in the past were run. Of course, they recommend you also go back and review past lessons so as not to forget them (you can do this by re-doing the assessments for previous lessons.)

 

I agree with Iwka - it would be easier as an Eastern Orthodox to do the course than a Protestant, but many of the classes won't matter at all. For example, the Grammar I class starts with John Chapter 1 (learning it in English and Latin), which is common to any Christian.

[katilac]

All of the sudden I am thinking about CLAA. I can't believe this, because we are happily following LCC....

What ages are currently using the Grammar 1? I know that it claims to be appropriate for any age, so perhaps it is the pace that is different for each age.

 

Drew Campbell aka PlaidDad aka the LCC guy is actually working with CLAA, so it's not like you would be taking a huge leap - - the prep work and such would just be done for you. You would just be switching from your current Latin curriculum to theirs, etc. ((I think he's helping to develop new courses, but you'd have to check the forum to be sure))

 

The courses are self-paced, and the student isn't allowed to move on to the next lesson until mastery is achieved. I'm not sure how they define mastery, but it may be on the site.

[Renee in NC]

Drew Campbell aka PlaidDad aka the LCC guy is actually working with CLAA, so it's not like you would be taking a huge leap - - the prep work and such would just be done for you. You would just be switching from your current Latin curriculum to theirs, etc. ((I think he's helping to develop new courses, but you'd have to check the forum to be sure))

 

The courses are self-paced, and the student isn't allowed to move on to the next lesson until mastery is achieved. I'm not sure how they define mastery, but it may be on the site.

 

Mastery is attained by receiving a 100% on the end of lesson assessment - at least that is how the Praeceptor training is set up.

[fractalgal]

One of the things I like about CLAA is that it is entirely self-paced. The student works on one lesson until it is mastered and then moves onto the next. This is how schools in the past were run. Of course, they recommend you also go back and review past lessons so as not to forget them (you can do this by re-doing the assessments for previous lessons.)

 

I agree with Iwka - it would be easier as an Eastern Orthodox to do the course than a Protestant, but many of the classes won't matter at all. For example, the Grammar I class starts with John Chapter 1 (learning it in English and Latin), which is common to any Christian.

 

I am impressed with the Grammar I class sample at CLAA. I am thinking of enrolling my daughter. Thanks for the information.

[happygrrl]

Thanks, Ya'll! These points are helping me clarify my thoughts.

[Whereneverever]

I thought it sounded really interesting- until I got to the passages about Protestantism. Wow.

[happygrrl]

I thought it sounded really interesting- until I got to the passages about Protestantism. Wow.

 

As an Orthodox Christian I pray daily for the day we can all- Protestant, Catholic, and Orthodox- worship together. Until that day...well, there are a few barriers on all sides to surmount, aren't there? There are several past threads on anti-Catholic bias in homeschool materials, anti-Protestant bias in Catholic materials, and if Orthodoxy were better known in the West I am sure we would be maligned even more than we are. ;) I would love to keep this thread clear of all of that, and was more wondering about how *much* Catholic Catechism is integrated into Grammar I.

[elizabeth]

 

I thought it sounded really interesting- until I got to the passages about Protestantism. Wow.

I thought the jabs at non Traditional Catholics were reprehensible and ignorant as well. This is a vocal minority viewpoint not shared by any practicing Catholics I know. Meh . Call it what you like but do not ever presume or believe they speak for the rest of us. They do not .

[forty-two]

As a Protestant, I'm not offended by CLAA's attitude toward us. He isn't bashing Protestant *believers*, but is arguing that Protestant *beliefs* are, where they differ from Catholic beliefs, wrong. Nothing wrong with that; as a Lutheran, I return the favor :D. We are fellow Christians (and I have seen nothing on the CLAA site to suggest otherwise), but Catholics and Protestants (and Orthodox, too ;)) have very different beliefs. Heck, various flavors of Protestant have very different beliefs. And beliefs have consequences. Glossing over the differences doesn't make them go away.

 

CLAA is unapologetic about the fact they are thoroughly Catholic - and why shouldn't they be? They *are* Catholic. I have great respect for people who are serious about their religious beliefs. One's religious beliefs *should* permeate every facet of education. There is no such thing as a neutral education, after all - everything is taught from a particular worldview, even if you aren't consciously aware of it.

 

I'm willing to use CLAA's materials to teach myself - and am very thankful CLAA is willing to let non-Catholics use them - but I wouldn't turn my kids loose on them without me right there to explain the differences between what we believe and what Catholics believe. CLAA is serious about providing a thoroughly Catholic classical education, and that means Catholic teaching permeates everything. I respect that, but I, on the other hand, am striving to provide my children with a thoroughly Lutheran education, based on the classical model. As Mr. Michaels would agree, they are not remotely the same thing. And it's silly to pretend otherwise. So why be offended when someone points it out?

[chanda7]

As a protestant, I have no problem whatsoever with the CLAA saying its beliefs are right and protestants are in error. I would also have no problem if it stated the CLAA would accept only Catholics.

 

However, considering that most of the founding fathers of logic, philosophy and classical education were polytheists, I find it interesting it believes that only Catholics can have a "genuine" classical education.

 

"He who defines the terms, wins the argument," seems to apply in this situation. :rolleyes:

[forty-two]

I don't know if I accept his argument that there is no way to have a Protestant education that can be legitimately called classical in any historically meaningfully sense. It's definitely true that Christian classical education was formulated by Catholics, but I'm not sure if the distinctly Catholic elements that he cites as inseparably intertwined with classical education *are* truly that integral to the foundation of classical education. They might be - it's an interesting and plausible idea - but I haven't looked it enough to be sure one way or another.

 

But whether I agree with him or not, that fact he makes the argument - and doesn't consider what I do classical education - doesn't both me at all. I'm doing what I do because I think it will lead to the best educational outcome for my kids (and me). The classical label is just a helpful shorthand that is largely accurate. If I end up agreeing with him about how he uses the term, I'll change how I refer to my method/philosophy of education. Otherwise I won't.

[happygrrl]

As a Protestant, I'm not offended by CLAA's attitude toward us. He isn't bashing Protestant *believers*, but is arguing that Protestant *beliefs* are, where they differ from Catholic beliefs, wrong. Nothing wrong with that; as a Lutheran, I return the favor :D. We are fellow Christians (and I have seen nothing on the CLAA site to suggest otherwise), but Catholics and Protestants (and Orthodox, too ;)) have very different beliefs. Heck, various flavors of Protestant have very different beliefs. And beliefs have consequences. Glossing over the differences doesn't make them go away.

 

CLAA is unapologetic about the fact they are thoroughly Catholic - and why shouldn't they be? They *are* Catholic. I have great respect for people who are serious about their religious beliefs. One's religious beliefs *should* permeate every facet of education. There is no such thing as a neutral education, after all - everything is taught from a particular worldview, even if you aren't consciously aware of it.

 

I'm willing to use CLAA's materials to teach myself - and am very thankful CLAA is willing to let non-Catholics use them - but I wouldn't turn my kids loose on them without me right there to explain the differences between what we believe and what Catholics believe. CLAA is serious about providing a thoroughly Catholic classical education, and that means Catholic teaching permeates everything. I respect that, but I, on the other hand, am striving to provide my children with a thoroughly Lutheran education, based on the classical model. As Mr. Michaels would agree, they are not remotely the same thing. And it's silly to pretend otherwise. So why be offended when someone points it out?

 

Well Spoken, forty-two (as usual :)). Are you actually using the program for self education? I am considering this.

 

As I grow my faith becomes more and more entwined with every thought. I sure wish I could grasp how that looks in CLAA... my goal is to be less intensely involved in my middle child's studies, so that I can spend the required time with my oldest. DD is the type that will thrive when given self-paced material (as I do). I am hoping that I won't have to spend so much time explaining the differences that it becomes just as hands-on as what we are doing now. I don't mean to imply that I want to cut and run on her education, just that I am not giving her enough for her full potential to be reached. I hope CLAA is an answer to this dilemma!

[happygrrl]

Mastery is attained by receiving a 100% on the end of lesson assessment - at least that is how the Praeceptor training is set up.

 

Ooh! Are you doing the Praeceptor training? I am so interested!

[forty-two]

Well Spoken, forty-two (as usual :)). Are you actually using the program for self education? I am considering this.

I am considering the Latin/Greek courses and strongly considering Classical Mathematics. It's just that I think about how many books I could get for $125, and whether I can learn enough about the subjects to piece something equally good together on my own (and whether it is worth my time even if I can). I have so many Latin books and resources already, and I'm not even sure exactly how much I buy into his methodology in the first place. But I really like the idea of using "real" Latin from the beginning in during class time, leaving easy Latin written largely to teach Latin for outside reading/practice; plus the emphasis on memorizing large chunks of Latin is appealing. But I'm not a fan of the emphasis on using translation to learn the vocab and grammar.

 

For myself, the version of his method I'd rather do (I periodically try to psyche myself up to it) is to learn Latin the old-fashioned way: pick a Latin text, copy out a small passage, read it aloud several times, look up all the vocab and grammar, look up commentaries, make notes, read it aloud in Latin 'till I have full understanding, memorize the passage in Latin, then go on to the next bit and do it all again. It is supposed to be the fastest way to reading fluency, but also, unsurprisingly, requires the greatest mental effort ;). But sometimes I think CLAA's course would be worth it - if only see how he does it. (Edited to add: I'm especially interested in how he structures it so as to teach logical thought via Latin; while he uses a deductive approach, he has said that not all deductive approaches are equal, so I'm curious how he does it.)

 

(For my kids I see the ideal as using genuine texts - where I value it for its content, not just its help in learning the language - from the beginning, like CLAA, but use some modern language learning techniques (tpr - total physical response, tprs - teaching proficiency through reading and storytelling, etc.) to provide the scaffolding for my kids to understand the Latin/Greek and learn the grammar instead of translation and lots of discussion in English. No idea how close I will get to that ideal, but it is what I'm ultimately shooting for.)

 

But while I may be ambivalent about the grammar courses, I am not about the Classical Mathematics. He is doing something completely unique here, and I am really excited about it. I have all Adrian's recommendations for a proofy math sequence, and am slowly working through it on my own, but what CLAA is doing is both essentially the same, yet completely different.

 

From the sample, it has a completely different system of axioms for one - the ancients don't seem to have the modern obsession with finding the smallest set of axioms possible. As well, the axioms are all in words, and working with them requires use of traditional logic methods. Modern proofy math requires use of symbolic logic. Learning one set of logic helps greatly with understanding another, but they are not the same thing at all. And ime - knowing symbolic logic and trying to learn traditional logic - it would be much easier to go the other way, learning symbolic logic after mastering traditional logic.

 

In short, that class is definitely worth the money to me - I almost certainly plan to do it.

 

(And thanks for the compliment - it made my day :))

Edited June 22, 2009 by forty-two

[Renee in NC]

Ooh! Are you doing the Praeceptor training? I am so interested!

 

Yes. It is right up my alley.

 

I don't think that I will be able to use CLAA with 2 of my dc because of LDs, not all parts of it with a 3rd, but probably all of it with my daughter. It is going to come down to whether they get past their "humps" or not.

 

My 5yo LOVES the Petty School reading.

[Heather in VA]

As a protestant, I have no problem whatsoever with the CLAA saying its beliefs are right and protestants are in error. I would also have no problem if it stated the CLAA would accept only Catholics.

 

However, considering that most of the founding fathers of logic, philosophy and classical education were polytheists, I find it interesting it believes that only Catholics can have a "genuine" classical education.

 

"He who defines the terms, wins the argument," seems to apply in this situation. :rolleyes:

 

This is what bothers me too. I think it would have been more acceptable to just say - 'we are a Catholic's only school'. After all if only Catholics can have the classical education, why would they want to teach those who can't?

 

Heather

[forty-two]

I think it would have been more acceptable to just say - 'we are a Catholic's only school'. After all if only Catholics can have the classical education, why would they want to teach those who can't?

Because he wants every child to be able to have access to what he sees as the best education currently available, is honest enough to acknowledge what he sees as insurmountable barriers, but respects parents enough to let them make the ultimate determination whether CLAA will fit their goals - for themselves and for their children?

 

Plus, why waste the evangelism opportunity? He probably wants to change people's hearts and minds - how is strictly rationing what he sees as the truth going to help with that?

[happygrrl]

Yes. It is right up my alley.

 

I don't think that I will be able to use CLAA with 2 of my dc because of LDs, not all parts of it with a 3rd, but probably all of it with my daughter. It is going to come down to whether they get past their "humps" or not.

 

My 5yo LOVES the Petty School reading.

 

I was particularly interested in your responses knowing that our kiddos share some of the same issues. What about Petty School for older kids with LD's? Is it just too "young"? I guess I was hoping we could do some regular CLAA classes even for my older, but that would perhaps require so much hand holding that it would not even be possible. The director is very clear about admission requirements, and also clear that the program is not for everyone.

 

How much time do you spend on the program (for yourself)? I am so intrigued!!

[Tress]

I am considering the Latin/Greek courses and strongly considering Classical Mathematics. It's just that I think about how many books I could get for $125, and whether I can learn enough about the subjects to piece something equally good together on my own (and whether it is worth my time even if I can). I have so many Latin books and resources already, and I'm not even sure exactly how much I buy into his methodology in the first place. But I really like the idea of using "real" Latin from the beginning in during class time, leaving easy Latin written largely to teach Latin for outside reading/practice; plus the emphasis on memorizing large chunks of Latin is appealing. But I'm not a fan of the emphasis on using translation to learn the vocab and grammar.

 

For myself, the version of his method I'd rather do (I periodically try to psyche myself up to it) is to learn Latin the old-fashioned way: pick a Latin text, copy out a small passage, read it aloud several times, look up all the vocab and grammar, look up commentaries, make notes, read it aloud in Latin 'till I have full understanding, memorize the passage in Latin, then go on to the next bit and do it all again. It is supposed to be the fastest way to reading fluency, but also, unsurprisingly, requires the greatest mental effort ;). But sometimes I think CLAA's course would be worth it - if only see how he does it.

 

Hi forty-two,

 

I'm enrolled in the Grammar 1 course for self-study in preparation for LCC educating my dds. My dds are very young and I'm not sure yet if/when I will enroll them. I'm really enjoying the course.

 

Just wanted to let you know that Mr Michael does not teach grammar through translation. He teaches vocabulary through the translations from the Gospel of John, grammar is taught through formal instruction. I think your 'old-fashioned' methode is very similar to the way Mr Michael teaches.

 

If you have other questions, just ask, although I do't know what you mean by 'tpr', so if you really want to discuss methods you should e-mail Mr Michael :tongue_smilie:.

 

P.S. Don't judge my ability to learn Latin grammar from my ability to write English, English is a foreign language to me:blush:.

[happygrrl]

But while I may be ambivalent about the grammar courses, I am not about the Classical Mathematics. He is doing something completely unique here, and I am really excited about it. I have all Adrian's recommendations for a proofy math sequence, and am slowly working through it on my own, but what CLAA is doing is both essentially the same, yet completely different.

 

 

 

OH yes, it is the Mathematics course that made me do a double-take. I had such a poor education that I am doubtful of my ability to educate myself at this point (much less my children). I will be interested to hear what you decide to do :).

[forty-two]

Just wanted to let you know that Mr Michael does not teach grammar through translation. He teaches vocabulary through the translations from the Gospel of John, grammar is taught through formal instruction. I think your 'old-fashioned' methode is very similar to the way Mr Michael teaches.

 

P.S. Don't judge my ability to learn Latin grammar from my ability to write English, English is a foreign language to me:blush:.

 

It's great to hear from someone actually using the course - thanks! I originally thought it would be very similar to the old-fashioned method I described, but the sample lesson was not quite what I expected, so I wasn't sure.

 

(And I think your English is excellent! :) I would be ecstatic if I could write in a second language at all, let alone as well as you!)

[Renee in NC]

I was particularly interested in your responses knowing that our kiddos share some of the same issues. What about Petty School for older kids with LD's? Is it just too "young"? I guess I was hoping we could do some regular CLAA classes even for my older, but that would perhaps require so much hand holding that it would not even be possible. The director is very clear about admission requirements, and also clear that the program is not for everyone.

 

How much time do you spend on the program (for yourself)? I am so intrigued!!

 

I am still not sure how I feel about using it with older kids with LDs. He doesn't seem to think it is a good thing for kids who might not get beyond the Grammar, Catechism, Arithmetic stage into the higher levels. I asked him directly and got a direct response that it wasn't for a child who couldn't do the program.

 

Petty School is for kids who can't read, can't count to 100, and can't write. The reading starts with 12 lessons of learning to read Latin and then switches to English. It isn't too young - there are two sample lessons on the website for you to watch and guage how your child will handle it.

 

At this time, I am going to enroll my 5yo in Petty School. As we go through the lessons and I get further in the Praeceptor Training, I will determine whether to use it with my 6 and 8yo boys. At this time I am leaning towards not, but maybe they *could* do it - it is hard to know if we don't try, but I am still not sure if trying would *hurt* them, KWIM?

 

I really, really like the Latin approach, but my 11yo HATES Latin and is adament that he doesn't want to do it. This falls into the "lack of interest" mentioned on the admission page, so I am not sure that forcing him would be fruitful for anyone. I am thinking about the Catechism, World Chronology, and possibly the Arithmetic for him.

[Renee in NC]

And to answer your other question - I just started the Praeceptor Training and so far so good. I read the material, take notes, memorize the memory work, and then take the assessment. The first assessment took me 3 tries!:tongue_smilie:

 

It may be as I get through the training I will better understand. I do really want this kind of education for my dc, I am just not sure how realistic that is given their limitations. All I hope is that I don't get anymore special needs students - I think 3 is my limit!

[iwka]

All I hope is that I don't get anymore special needs students - I think 3 is my limit!

 

oh my...I have one and I am going nuts....blessings to you

[fractalgal]

And to answer your other question - I just started the Praeceptor Training and so far so good. I read the material, take notes, memorize the memory work, and then take the assessment. The first assessment took me 3 tries!:tongue_smilie:

 

 

FYI

http://classicalliberalarts.com/cgi-bin/smf/index.php?topic=149.0