This might be a difference between classic and redesign. When I came from year 4 classic to year 1 redesign if felt like the literature had taken a half a step back....or a full step. In year 4 classic my 2nd dd had been doing LG lit, which included picture and chapter books. My oldest did UG level which was all chapter books and I picked and chose from D level for her. The D level had a lot of content, dealing with really heavy issues and so I couldn't have her in it continually. I did pull out James Harriot, CS Lewis, and Lucado type books. But some of those were...they were pushing her just enough they weren't that enjoyable for her (content wise not reading wise). I didn't do R level at all, so that might have been a different ball of wax. Now in year 1 I have no problems with my 2nd dd in UG level, my oldest in D level and my 3rd dd in LG. In fact I find I am pulling books from the next level up to fill with occasionally. But in looking at the R level it is heavy. I am really careful what, if anything I pull from it. Mostly I go to alternates for my oldest and have her go back and read UG level when she runs out (serious reader, so it is hard to keep her in enough...in fact she is waiting now on me to find her another book...and has already read the UG text this week). The last point is the reason why I stick with TOG. I have spines I know I like and want to use: Guerber, MOH and SOTW right now. The Usborne type spines TOG picks don't often click with us. WP worked here, but I was constantly searching for more material for my oldest....which is a lot of work. SL was enough for my oldest but too much for my younger three, so again I was modifying. I am not going to get away from having to do foot work with this crowd so might as well do TOG. :) Heather

They are offering print again, just for the information. They have Christian texts in the Quest for the Ancient World, Quest for the Middle Ages (both use Mystery of History) and several of the science programs use the God's Design series books as spine texts. But several other programs have limited to no Christian perspective, if you remove the Bible portion. With SL most of the time the Bible is not integrated. They include missionary stories in every level, because they have a heart for missions, but these don't always go with the time period being studied. They do try to when they can, but they don't force it. I am trying to remember their vision for Bible...if I remember right it was to do a Gospel every year and cover the whole Bible is something like 5 years so you get in at least two rounds. They do also often have a devotional that relates more to the subject matter, like with Core 3 the American Indian Prayer Guide, but not every level ties in like that. I loved SL while we used it and would have continued for myself, but it was too much for most my kids. They wanted more stuff to do and found the RA's too emotional. All but my oldest. I still buy SL books for her to read on her own. :D Heather

I agree with this evaluation, though I haven't done WWS just looked at the samples. I also plan to do both. I have my kids do WWE 1 and 2 as a whole with the workbooks. WWE 3 and 4 skills I finish more quickly with our own material. Generally I have my kids start CW Aesop while doing WWE 3 and 4 skills. Then they do Homer and Beginning Poetry. My 8th grader is finish up Diogenes Maxim in the next few months and I will probably have her quickly go through WWS before starting the second level of Diogenes. CW Homer is the hardest level to get through, because there is just a lot of work. They have the child do things till it becomes automatic. That requires a lot of repetition. Diogenes is written to the child and takes less time to complete, but I do like the more simple and to the point explanations in WWS, so I think my dd would benefit from getting to the heart of the issue quickly. WWS is a lighter schedule than she is used to so I will have her do it quickly then we will continue with CW. Long term we will probably continue to visit WWS as a break between CW levels, as long as I see something I think she would benefit from. Heather

That would be my recommendation too. I think Karen's overview is TOG is history with literate and Omnibus is literature with some history. She used TOG history and Omnibus literature for a time. She has some great posts that would be well worth the read. Heather

Year 1 is the only year with a full Bible program, because it covers Biblical history. Year 2 and beyond would be better called church history and worldview. They also cover missionaries under that topic, and they don't shy away from other religions as they come up. The fine arts cover music, art, and may other areas that now escape my memory. Just to be clear it isn't an art program, it is the history of art, music and poetry. The people who changed the direction of their fields sort of thing. With everything in TOG they discuss how each "thread" (worldview is one thread, fine arts another) had its place in how people of that time thought and thus behaved. It is one of the things I love most about TOG. Heather

WP's Hideaways in History used all 4 SOTW books (just parts of each), but it looks like they changed it. Which is good because at a couple of chapters a day I thought that made it more of a 2nd-5th grade program vs the k-1st the placed it as. Heather

TOG is a banquet. You can't do everything you have to pick and choose. Yes there are activities....everything from crafts to sewing your own costumes to presentations. You don't have to do them...you simply can't get everything they list in a week done in a week. You're not meant to. WP at the lower levels has a lot of paper crafts. At the higher level...I think there were both crafts and other activities...I own this level of guides but haven't used them...so I am trying to remember from just looking them over (and am too lazy at the moment to go pull it off the shelf). At the LG, UG and D levels it is not necessarily more than SL...just different. More mapping, more academic books (usborne), more picture books, less RA's...not sure how the literature/readers compare....my gut feeling is about the same. TOG starts discussions at the D level and often the suggested time is an hour. That sort of thing is absent in SL. By R level you are reading original documents, texts for history, government, philosophy, Bible, fine arts history and literature as well as doing often hour discussions on each. Picking up my year 1 (considered the lightest year, 2 is the heaviest and 3 and 4 are in between) and flopping it open to a week, 32 Imperial Rome, the schedule includes: History: These Were the Romans about 53 pages of reading. Holman Bible Atlas about 22 pages of reading. Foxe's Book of Martyrs 10 pages of reading Warfare in the Classical World 20 pages Comprehension questions and thinking questions. TOG suggests you allow 2 hour for history discussion. There are only 6 questions total but they have sub points, so there are about 20 different points to discuss that I see...and government may be included in that time as I don't see where it has a separate time listed. Government: Cicero's Republic book IV (no pages listed it is an original document and you read the whole thing) and cover thinking questions. Answer 8 questions. Geography: Finish painting and labeling salt map from last week and label. Answer questions. Literature: Words of Delight about 50 pages Fill in 2 1/2 page outline of book. Fine Arts: Art of the Ancient Mediterranean World chapter 22 Worldview: Matthew 26-28 What the Bible is All About 2 pages Church History in Plain Language Chapter 1 Pageant of Philosophy: Epictetus the Stoic Answer questions...Bible has 12 questions and 31 different points. Church History has 7 questions. Philosophy discuss 9 different points. Writing depends on what level you are in. level 9 is writing a speech, 10 is writing a Biography, level 11 is a Multi-Media Presentation, level 12 is working on Senior Thesis. That totally leaves of the activities. Also you don't HAVE to do all of this, you can pick and choose but it shows you how TOG can be more than SL at the D and R levels (above is R). The two lower levels I would say that SL is heavier...but if you tried to do it all TOG would still be heavier. Heather

I agree. My oldest is doing her Latin, writing/grammar, and science independently. Though she is 8th grade and I have spent years working with her one on one. My 2nd dd does Latin and science independently as well. But I didn't even try for anything independent other than doing math after I explained it till around 5th grade. With Latin I just don't have the time to teach both programs. I have gone through the youngest child's program myself, but my oldest I haven't even done that. I just correct their work and go over anything they miss with them. Thus while they read and do the work independently I am still involved. Science is much the same way. They read and then do the "tests" open book and give me the answers to correct. I go over anything they miss with them. With my oldest in grammar and writing (her strongest area) she corrects her stuff with the Classical Writing TM. I am only seeing her finished writing. It is her strong point though, she just needs to keep up the skills not learn them. I corrected her work up until the point I knew she had learned it. Yet at the same time it is a fallacy that your time will be totally free. It sill takes time to correct their work and you still have to go back and teach areas they aren't getting...and that is the harder, approach it from a new way so they get it teaching. I am spending just as much time hsing as I used to...if not more. Heather

Generally crazy busy, but good. :D Heather

Merry, In general talk we do, with both a and the, slide to the /u/ sound. What I do is just explain that a should be pronounced phonetically /ay/ and then make a point of using /ay/ when I read aloud leading up to it. Then I explain that because it is easier to say /u/ that we tend to be lazy and pronounce it wrong. All of my kids got that and ran with it. The would use the correct pronunciation for a short time then start using the /u/. I just wait to cover the till th is covered in the curriculum and then do the same thing. I did try to teach my younger two the earlier, but both completely shorted out and regressed with what they did know. With both I had to go back to just a because it made sense to them. The older two did fine with being taught phonetic the before th had been introduced, but their issues have always been more mild. Thought they have their days. My 10yo was reducing fractions and mid page started reducing to the lowest prime number instead of dividing. :confused: Well at least she has primes down. Today we are regrouping and she is doing it the right way. Heather

Necessary? No. Helpful in your situation with a child who wants to spell right? Probably. Love, no adore, no will die for AAS. Ok maybe no die for, but I really like it. It is one of the purchases I have not regretted and would do again without hesitation. Sometimes spelling can lag behind reading a lot. My kids have dyslexic tendencies. The youngest two in particular struggle to hear the sounds correctly in words and struggle with retaining correct visual memory of how words are spelled. I have a 13yo who reads at an college level and spells at about a 9th grade level, a 12yo who probably could read at a college level but doesn't like to read that much. She spells at grade level or above. My 10yo can read above grade level but is just now nailing blends. Yep I said blends. She just couldn't hear two sounds. Took a tour through a special program (LiPS) that focused on the way the mouth moves to make sounds and through a visualization program (Seeing Stars) to train her to see words in the mind for visual memory. In the last two years she went from spelling a word like blend as bid because she didn't hear the blends and mixed up /i/ and /e/. Then she would read it and melt down because she knew it was wrong and couldn't figure out how to fix it. The first year we stopped spelling and just worked on the programs. The next year she spent figuring out how to fix it after she wrote it wrong, now that she had the tools she needed. This year she is finally spelling them right the first time through without pauses (she is still in AAS level 2). Of course my ds is walking in my 10yo's steps. :blink: My life is exhausting. :D But in PS they would have just been left as poor spellers. I know because the younger two get it from me. Heather

The biggest problem is that AAR only has one level. Kids can take off reading very quickly and you could find yourself out-pacing the content AAR quickly. If Phonics Pathways is working, then stick with it. AAR is expensive compared to many programs, but when compared to other multi-sensory, OG based programs like Wilson Reading and Barton Reading and Spelling, it isn't that bad...or at least is comparable...cheaper than Barton. Through Barton has more multi-sensory work and more depth than I see in AAR. AAR has a slower place for younger kids, on the other hand. Meh...if you have a problem student it is just going to cost you. My biggest disappointment, in looking at the AAR samples, is that it teaches THE as a sight word. Ugh. Not necessary! It is phonetic. The program I am using right now does the same thing and I just replace all of the THE with A. The dog barks. A dog barks. Both work, but A doesn't really require the teaching of a sight word. None of my kids had a problem with the article a. But most reading programs have the same issue. :glare: Heather

TOG can be fairly open and go IF you use their main choice of books, and IF you are fine with a weekly schedule. Those who do use it as open and to have a schedule similar to this: Monday: History and Bible reading Tuesday: Literature and other reading (if you are doing philosophy/art/or government) Wednesday: Mapping and history/Bible discussion Thursday: Literature and other discussion Friday: Writing That is assuming you aren't doing activities, you will have to pick and choose from those either way. I love TOG but don't love their spine choices and prefer a daily schedules, so in the end I do a lot of foot work to make it work. WP is a daily schedule, pulling a little from each topic each day. They do have long term customer service issues and such (late deliveries, book substitutions, typos and such). If you love WP you can get over these issues, you just learn to order early. They have the best of intentions, IMO, but not the best of practical business skills. They are still schooling their own large family while trying to write new programs and run the business. That is a lot to take on and it shows now and then. BTW if you like the spine of WP, Mystery of History (MOH), the publisher of MOH has put together a full daily schedule program to go with it called Illuminations. It might or might not be what you are interested in. Google Bright Ideas Press if you are interested. Also keep in mind work load. I have a friend who has used MFW, SL and WP and she says the MFW schedule is the lightest, then WP then SL. I have used SL, TOG, WP. Between those WP has the lightest reading schedule, but the crafts can make it as heavy as SL. TOG also has a lighter reading schedule and can make up for it with activities for the younger years. At the high school level WP would be the lightest, then SL then TOG. You can, with TOG, keep a child in a lower level to lighten the work load because at the Rhetoric level if you do something like 90% it is considered AP. Keeping a 9th or even 10th grade child in Dialect is...well is probably what I will do. I only have one child that is a read-a-holic that can keep up with the TOG schedule without pushing. I don't know how heavy the Illuminations schedule is because I haven't used it. I will say I have been very please with how the mind behind it, Maggie Hogan of Bright Ideas Press, does a good job of finding a balance...she is amazingly able to target meaningful activities/work without doing too much and not having a lot of busy work, IMO. My guess is that it would be about the same workload as MFW. To do it over again I would probably do Illuminations just because it meets my bare minimum and will get done. Right now I own all this TOG but other than using it for reading assignments and my oldest doing some of the evaluations work I just haven't found time for the discussions. :001_huh: Heather

My oldest reached 7th grade...then stayed there for a year...I found AAS and that worked better. I can't remember what she tested at last time (end of last year) but it was over 7th grade...she just hit a wall with SWR. I think she struggled to find the rules when she needed them and apply them. When we went back to cover lists more quickly for review, she would get all the same words wrong again, despite working on them for a couple of months the year before. I think she was relying heavily on visual memory as much as applying the rules. The more sequential pace in AAS allowed me to see what was going on, stop, and have her start teaching the rules to me to internalizing the rules better. She got beyond the wall and is still improving. SWR is good and I still use a lot of Wanda's and trainer ideas, but I just couldn't keep up with it long term. I can do AAS at a much slower pace and much less time commitment. It was just more doable for me with four kids. But she was 3rd grade, if I remember right, when she hit the wall with SWR. Theoretically she should have been able to "test out" in a couple of years...or less. Depends on how much time I devoted to it each day and how much "clicked". Heather

Thanks, Jenn that was just what I needed today.:grouphug: I love the recommendations I am getting. I probably won't use them right away because they are Biology, Chemistry and Physics related, but that is great, because I was more worried about these. After a talk with dh we decided for the rest of this year and into next a little we will go with a modified original plan. I am going to have all the kids do WP's Rock Around the Earth, then have my oldest also working through the Earth Self Study Guide. After that I will have them do the WP's Sizzle, Solve and Survive while my oldest works through the Environmental Science Self Study Guide. The WP schedule is only 2 days a week, so it is actually a little light and given she is a reader, I don't think the study guides will give her any trouble...except the test portions. I will have her do those open book for now. She needs to learn to better read and pull information out of the text. Right now we are working on these skills in Latin, but it would be great to also be working in other areas. Then I think we will move into the more "official programs" you all have given me to investigate. And I love the Emerson Waldorf lesson books, and will have to incorporate that idea, no matter what we are using. Thank you! Heather

Love this thread. Figured out that my ds diffidently is not CAPD. He follows multi-step oral directions without problems. That said he still struggles to hear the sounds in simple CVC words and accurately recall the corresponding letters, but can accurately recall the sounds when reading so that he reads above grade level. What I find interesting in relation to EF is that reading came together for him in a week when we started using Barton reading. I have always attributed that to the movements used, and how it helped him focus. Taping under each letter while saying the sounds, doing a slow blend while making a u with his finger under the word, and then blending fast while running his finger under the word. So simple but it made reading "click" for him and points to EF issues. As a teen I always preferred to do homework with music on. Everyone thought I was nuts, but I think it also might point to EF. Loud predictable music (stuff I already know well) would keep distracting noise out and allow me to hyperfocus. Like Renee's ds to this day I will do copywork while listening to a sermon in church because otherwise my mind wanders based on what I see and hear. In high school my nick name was spaced out, and I once even had an employer comment on it. When I am overwhelmed I sort of check out, frozen and unable to make a decision. In day to day life I use routine to combat this, but it can get me into trouble in a work environment because I can choose routine over something that needs immediate attention. When I am reading on a topic and have reached my fill, the feeling is like I have so many ideas pulling at me I need to stop let them settle...ponder each one? Otherwise it feels like I start loosing ideas, they just drop off and I have to go back and re-read to find them again. All my kids use headphones (with music or just sound blocking) on a regular basis, including myself when doing corrections. At the same times I will have times when my dh will come over and ask me, "Don't you hear that?" I will realize that the kids are arguing and I have been blocking it out, hyperfocusing. It has to get to a certain volume/tone for me to pull out and hear it on my own. All of the kids and myself show signs of problems with working memory connected to being interrupted. As if when interrupted we do a memory wipe. Half finished math problems, unfinished sentences in writing or general conversation, that sort of thing. Just this week I discovered that I set up all our bills to pay a month late. I suspect this was because I paid our mortgage first, which means I look at the next month to see when the first lands and it was a weekday or a weekend. I suspect I was then interrupted and when I came back to it I forgot I was looking at the next month. Luckily I caught that the print out had all the dates a month out and correct them. But it is typical around here. Normal people do it too, but generally not as often, and not with so small of interruptions (like a child just telling me they are going outside to play). Heather

Life just hit high speed and I have having a hard time keeping up with everything hs requires, so I don't have the time for the forums anymore. :001_huh: I sure miss you all. I also have been jumping through hoops to get ds tested. Our insurance doesn't require a referral (yea) but the place we were told is the best to go to does (ugh). Normally this all goes through the school, so my pediatrician didn't feel comfortable just recommending a full neurology evaluation. He only sees a speech problem. He assumed that the speech therapist would recommend a full neurology eval if needed. So I jump through the hoops to get everything going, wait 4 months for an appointment to get in there and have the gal tell me she doesn't care what the root causes are she treats it all the same. Doesn't recommend a neurology eval but does recommend a social training class and if I want o/t for the handwriting issues. :glare: He is late in developing social skills because it took so long for other kids to understand him, but now that they do he has been developing the skills. Her biggest concern was that he didn't ask any questions about her. I told him to pick a boy in Sunday school and ask them at least two questions, and he did and made a new friend in the process. I think it will take care of itself, and I can continue to work on both speech and fine motor skills at home, so in the end it was all a wash. She did say he doesn't behave like kids who she sees who have auditory processing issues. He followed complex oral instructions without a problem. That points me again back to Dyslexia. He can read above grade level (does fine with seeing a letter and recalling the sound), but can't spell CVC words because he still confuses short vowel sounds (he can't hear the sound and recall the letter correctly). With all of our LiPS, SS and Barton work this isn't because he doesn't know the sounds or the letters. We drill them daily by flash cards, and then I give the sounds and he writs the letters in sand. It just gets jumbled up when he has to apply it by both sounding out and recalling the letters. It is getting better, but it is slow going. On the bright side my 3rd dd, who struggles with the same things in a milder form, finally can spell blends. She used to leave a letter out then read it and realize she got it wrong but did not know hot to fix it. She went through LiPS and works with SS. That helped her figure out how to fix it but she would still write it wrong first each time. With time and practice she is finally able to pull them apart in her mind and write it correctly the first time. She is 5th grade now so it has been a long time coming, but knowing she got them gives me hope for ds. It is just going to be a long road, but at least they are getting there now. I couldn't spell till I started teaching them. :D Heather

My kids do best when they do it. I was going to use the WTM self study guides and just use the lower level experiment recommendations. We didn't use most the kits because they tend to be hard to do, according to reviews. I figured in High School they would have the fortitude to push through. I find myself doubting this plan, because I have less and less time to coordinate things, and if they do get into a jam it could be a couple of days till I can help them. Apologia has nice packages and sounds like the experiments are independent. We tried Apologia and it wasn't great. Mostly the tests were a problem because they focus on details and we are big picture people. I was one of the few who always did great on essay questions. Ideologically I really wanted a secular text for high school, and I am concerned about the texts not being updated. Is there any other package (with labs and supplies) science programs out there that study one topic per year from a secular point of view? I peaked and SOS and LIFEPac but they seem to cover multiple topics for 9th grade. Heather

In my opinion, until they decide they care, there is not a lot to be done. Most kids need to simply slow down, and won't. If you can find some sort of way to get them to care, that would be great. For me it was calligraphy. Once I saw my handwriting as art, I took the time. Heather

Not sure yet, just haven't gotten there yet to see what parts they build on. Heather

Yes I use Analytical Grammar, and I do use the parsing in CW as well, but you could easily skip the parsing done on day 2. Though I wouldn't advise skipping the applied grammar in the six sentence shuffle. You could only do one sentence a week instead of two, though. There is optional diagramming in Aesop, and quite a bit of diagramming tough in Homer with the six sentence shuffle. Though I always allowed my dd to use the TM to correct her diagram before moving on to do the rest. I wanted her to have what was going on in the sentence correct in her mind as she moved ahead more than I wanted her to get it right the first time. I don't know about the upper levels...yet. :D Heather

Ruth, I will take a stab at this, but realize I am only so far into CW...then my information is from looking at samples, and tidbits I have picked up from users who are farther than I. Then with WWS I have only done a little reading and looking at samples. This may not be dead on. CW seems to be much more focused on practice, on end game writing and on logical choosing of material. WWS seems to me more focused on practical writing, outlines and reports with corresponding documentation. They do overlap. I prefer the WWE method of teaching summaries for outlining so we do that before starting Aesop, then the kids are prepped for the outlining done in Homer. But I love how CW incorporates grammar into the program. One of my biggest problems as a math person learning to write is that I didn't know how to work with language. CW teaches that and has lots of practice. To much for some, but I was a kid who got it right off, then forgot it. If a teacher handed back a paper and told me a sentence was awkward I couldn't figure out how to change it to save my life. CW works with synonyms, tense, plural/singular, quotes, moving clauses and such so much that it becomes second nature. The six sentence shuffle which covers this is thought over 2 years then continued once a week for a 3rd year. I don't know yet if it goes in to the 4th year. That sort of continued long term use is needed here. That said I see where WWS might fill a very practical need in learning how to outline books for college study. How to write basic reports with proper documentation. CW has covered much of this, it is not that my dd couldn't do it. I think WWS would just simply her thinking so she knew exactly what to do and nail it. Thus I will probably have her finish the first year of Diogenes, then do WWS level 1, then finish the second year of Diogenes. Long term though I like what I hear about CW. I am sure someday Susan might but out something comparable, but right now there isn't anything. Long term CW combines writing and a logic program to work on choosing one's words carefully in order to best communicate a point or make an argument. They aren't just putting words on paper trying to fill space. Here they will probably meet different needs and play different rolls. If you can only do one, then WWE/WWS would be the more practical choice. If you can manage CW then I think there is a lot to be gleaned there, especially for the child who is not language intuitive, though it has also worked for my dd who is language intuitive. Heather

Wow that is a lot to take in. I have only read a little on the difference between dyslexia and CAPD, but my current summary would be they have similar problems, but present differently. CAPD people will have more random guesses at things they are not hearing correctly, where dyslexics have a distinct pattern to the guessing based on visual clues-b/d, p/q. It seems to me dyslexia is a more complex issue crossing multiple senses, but it also seems dyselxia is not a diagnoses used a lot anymore. They have broken things down into smaller pieces than that, isolating issues where dyslexia is more of a huge wrapper to a pattern of issues. I suspect most dyslexics would be diagnosed CAPD. I agree that you need to prioritize and deal with issues as time and money allow. I personally would start by making three lists. That which addresses issues from largest to smallest, that which would be the best financially, and that which would work the best time wise. Then I would see where they overlap in the top 5 slots and try to pick out 3 big priorities from those that overlap the most on the lists. Each time I was able to finish an item on the list I would redo the lists again. This journey will have you switching priorities a lot (as I am sure you already know). Unfortunately I think most programs that work on auditory processing are computer based and use headphones. The reason is because it limits the outside noises (controlled environment) and because it is hard to find other ways to present specific sounds with background noises with which to train the child to choose what to focus their hearing on. I am sure there are older programs that do it with audio tapes or some sort of mini mixing board. But they would require direct teacher involvement as well, so the computers become the easy to use, all encompassing tool. Once you get it narrowed down you will probably find a lot of people can help with ideas of how to implement individual pieces. The list overwhelms me so much that I have a hard time picking a spot with which to give ideas. :D Heather

Generally I start in 5th grade, so my 3rd dd will do it this year. That is partly because we have to test at the end of 5th grade. :D Heather

Hmmm, well AG doesn't got into the detail that R&S does. Like the types of pronouns. They are listed by time in AG, but AG doesn't focus on the child learning the type. That said CW does, so you still catch the details. Heather