This is also our 2nd time around.

The ownder of the MOH yahoo groups is a Bright Ideas Press co-owner, and several employees are on the yahoo groups. I am pretty sure they don't pay attention to what goes on here, but what happens on the yahoo groups they see naturally. As for the rest of it, I have no clue. I want to see authors get the money they deserve, and publishing companies get the moeny they deserve so they can continue to stay in buisness. One of the biggist eye openers for me, when I worked in pubishing for a short while, was that the author has to BUY their own books! The company I worked for gave the author a 50% discount, but Amazon, Borders and such got a 40% discount, so it wasn't that much better. I have been around a lot of hs companies, and in general BIP and Linda have never sensored converstation about the competition-how they are the same or different, which is "better" ect..., or how to use both together, or schedules to use both. TOG is worst I have been seen for telling you that you can't talk about their product against any other competition on their forums/yahoo groups. I susupect anything similar made to go with TOG would not be tollerated. Their attitude drives me nuts, but the product meets a need I have so I still use it. Point being there isn't a negative attitude in general, and there is a lot of free stuff in their company owned yahoo files (tlimeline figures, note card helps, schedules) for MOH. There is a protective attitude towards their product though, that I have seen come up repeatedly. I honestly can't blame them, but I hate all the commotion it stirs up. I also get frusterated because I too want everything I can get for free. I am not convienced they are the only ones who ask people to take things down. Or maybe it is just bad communication? I own one of the two yahoo groups for God's Design Science. They have questions in their book and a teachers answer key, but I wanted worksheets I could give to my child. I wrote the publisher and asked for permission to put those questions in PDF form and to post them on the yahoo group for other moms to use. On outward appearence it looks like I am doing the same thing and getting away with it, but in reality I got the needed permission first. Just working through things myself... Heather

Have you looked at the samples of their Notbooking Pages? http://www.brightideaspress.com/wp-content/uploads/SampleFiles/MOH1_Notebooking_Pages-sample.pdf There are pages which look very similar to what you created. I would suspect the copyright issue is to do with them, and not with the book. I know the person they paid to create those notbooking pages. As someone who has worked on the bookeeping side of buisness since I was in high school...these little things make it harder to stay in buisness. From their perspective not only is there free option so what they developed won't sell, but they are out all the mony they paid to have them created in the first place....and they just re-did them in the last year putting more money into it. Heather (who sees both sides and isn't happy on either side) :( p.s. In the interest of full disclosure I do have long connections to the buisness as I was one of the earlier MOH users, I help Linda with her website (the author not the publisher) by answering questions people have about MOH and was asked by the owner of Bright Ideas Press to help developt the Illuminations product that goes with MOH as one point (didn't have the time, so turned it down). Currently I am moderator on several of the Bright Ideas Press yahoo groups. They haven't said anything to us moderators about the situation. I wasn't asked to post here by them, in fact they have no idea that I am. I do wish they didn't have to consider the bottom line and wish both sets of pages were available free to everyone. It seems the focus of conversation is how can they violate the book's copyright and wanted to redirect attention to the notebooking pages, which I belive are the real issue.

My daughter dislikes textbooks, including Usborne, DK and Kingfisher. She didn't love History of the US either, too many side bar factoids. She loves SOTW, historical fiction and literature. My plan right now is use All American History, but I am afraid it is just too formal. I don't really need a whole program as I can use the TOG I own, I am more looking for a spine that isn't a textbook. But if it were a perfect fit, I would consider it. Heather

No, they tended to confuse my daughters-the translation from quantity to color. We do have blocks and abacus, both of which he is free to use and won't. *roll eyes* It isn't that he forgets how to do multiplicaiton or his math facts. He forgets to show carrying when he hasn't done it for a while then ends up with the wrong answer half them time because by the time he does the next column he forget he carried something. Both his father and I would like to see him get enough practice that it becomes automatic. RS has considerably less practice from other programs because it focuses on math facts and why math works. Heather

I have used LL with my oldest and now my middle two. I really like it. I originally worked through it with my oldest, now I just hand them the sheet and if they have questins or problems I step in. I only have used the 1st book. The 2nd wasn't out so I moved to First Form. Both my oldest and I found it dry. I plan to skip it with my next two and go straight from LL to Ecce Romani. The later also has more writing than LL (should as it is for older students) but many more varied exercises, so my daughter enjoys it not dreads it. Heather

RS works good here but doesn't have enough practice in long multiplication-it isn't sticking. Tried MM but he starts following the patterns and not doing the math-might still use it and skip pattern parts. Tried to go back to singapore, but he tries to do it mentally and drops things with borrowing and carrying. I may just need to make up my own sheets, but would really love something that just has lots of long multipliction and divison practice. It would be fine if addition and subtraction were included. If it was only multiplicaiton that would be fine. Heather

Trishe, Just stunned...and want to put on the momma hat come down there and give him a good whipping like one would a very bad little boy. He should know better. Praying for you and the three little jewels...The Name of the Lord is a strong tower...the LORD is your strength now. Sisters at heart, Heather

I used the US edition of Singapore and it is my first love in math programs, but it does make logical leaps at times. Still wish I had a math lover so I could do Singapore all the way through. Right Start in general does not. It directly teaches everything and has quite a bit of review. Heather

You can use whatever grammar program you like. I am still using Analytical Grammar. The key it to have covered phrases/clauses by Homer B because you do a lot of work on moving them in the sentence in that level. What I like about CW grammar is it applies it to writing. The goal of Homer is to make changes automatic. Changes like synonym substitutions, changing opening word, moving modifiers, changing tense, changing person, changing sentence type, so the child has a variety of skills to work with. I personally probably learned it all in school, but it quickly fell to the way side. I would have times when I knew a sentence was awkward, but I couldn't' figure out how to fix it. CW makes uses these till they are 2nd nature. All of the above? :D If you buy the workbooks for Aesop they are set up to be 18 weeks for Aesop A and 18 weeks for Aesop B. Some people choose to do the grammar work one week and the writing the next making them a year long program instead of 1/2 a year. The Homer Older Beginners set actually has about 4 weeks of Aesop where they quickly cover the most important of Aesop skills. I personally do Aesop in a year, then Homer A in a year with Beginning Poetry A, then Homer B in a year with Beginning Poetry B. Homer is the hardest level to do, mostly because there is a lot of volume of work, and a lot of change in the work from week to week so it is hard at times to find a groove, once you get to Diogenes the work load lightens and the child works independently. My oldest just started Diogenes Chreia, just so that you know where we are at. My 2nd dd is doing Homer A and my 3rd dd is doing Aesop A. I start after finishing WWE 3. Somewhere around 4th, 5th. Just depends on the child and how much it is sinking in. It does have religious models (Bible, songs and stories of saints). Generally a couple a level, so it is pretty easy to replace them. I do because my kids don't want to re-write Bible stories. The student books are consumable and the core books are not. Many people do prefer Writing Tales for ease of use, then jump into CW Homer. Let me know if you have more questions. Heather

And for what grade? Just trying to decide what I should expect from my dd next year. Heather

I would agree with this. I use the Nothing New Press versions, which also edit out the language that would be found offensive today, but was normal then. She documents what has been changed. Heather

Yep. I have found a few that work for us, but there is a lot of dry boring books and the best science experiments books aren't feathered into a program. I find we end up doing one or the other. History is our least important group topic here, science is second to the last. But I find it much easier to find history resources that I get excited about using. Math is our biggest focus, followed by LA. After history comes independent topics: Latin, Critical Thinking, Music, Art. I have very little involvement in those topics and wait to cover them till they can do so independently. Heather

I think Saxon does this in a mastery format and Horizons does it with a spiral format...but I may be confused. Is it possible that they are not developmentally ready for it? Just because we give these things grade levels doesn't mean all the kiddos have the abstract thinking needed to do it. Heather

Kim, I chose JAG/AG becuase of the memorization in EG. I knew that alone would make the kids hate EG. Beyond that I also like how JAG/AG starts with more of a big picture and doesn't get caught up on details. But that is how we all think here. Diagramming I don't see as necessary. I do see times when the kids just aren't pulling together what part of speech something is, but they somehow diagram it right. Once they know the diagram they quickly figure out how to parse it. I think it helps here but not enough that I think every child needs to learn it. Heather

CW doesn't use this terminology, so I am not sure what you are asking. You do work on adding descriptive detail. The emphasis is on synonym work in Aesop, which is further flushed out in Homer. If you are talking simile, metaphor and such that is covered...either in Homer or in Beginning Poetry...can't remember which right now. But it is not in Aesop. Heather

At first you have to do 8 weeks of Homer straight, but that is not too difficult because it starts off light. By week 8 it is getting to be a bit much for them and from there on out that is exactly what we do. My 2nd dd did week 9 of Homer last week and will do week 2 of poetry this week. Heather

We do Aesop and Homer 4 days a week, but 5 days would be fine. I have to alternate with Poetry because back to back Homer weeks in 4 days tends to get to be a bit much. I agree that WWS is not needed. I might use it because I approaches things a bit differently....more simply. I will look at it again later, but for now my oldest is continuing with the next level of Diogenes. Heather

My kids aren't mathey, so I do Hands on Equations and then Lial's Basic College Math. Many kids can skip ahead to pre-algebra, but mine just need more practice to solidify the processes. They actually test higher on the conceptual side (why math works the way it does) then the equations side (doing it). Most kids are the opposite. Heather

It's a risk. My question to you would be, do you have the ability to sell them to someone else if it doesn't work out? RS generally has a pretty high resale value. So far my oldest has finished RS B-E and moved on and my 2nd dd has done B and is doing E now, and again is doing well. I have a dd in D now and my ds is in C. For all of us RS explains things in a way we understand. BUT I think some kids start out hands on then grow out of that need and sometimes in fact need something more visual. You just can't predict what your child will need. Heather

I know I have had times where I have personally not been able to see the forest for the trees. The only example I can think of is when I was younger helping with some accounting at a job I had. The gal who ran it told me that you always auto apply with this one customer because they always pay in full. I did what she said. The account ended up a mess because they had two different people paying bills and one was taking our discount on the total invoice (including shipping charges) and the other was correctly only taking the discount on merchandise. Our system was only giving them a discount on merchandise, so their account quickly started to fall behind. I didn't think to question it because, 1. I had been told not to and 2. because I figured the balance was due to new charges put in....and I didn't actually see an account view when I entered payments to see that the account wasn't coming to zero and 3. if the company was doing it wrong then that meant the current bookeeper I was filling in for was hand adjusting....allowing them the extra discount on shipping just to balance things. Needless to say the owner was furious with both of us. Me for not questioning things and allowing the account to become an absolute mess (though I did end up going though it by hand and fixing it before she got back), and her for having allowed the extra discount. After the fact I couldn't believe I didn't question it...but I was only like a two week cover and she had been so adamant this was the way it was done. I can't think of any more recent examples but this sort of dua things do happen...not all the time, once a year kinda thing. Once someone points out the situation to me I can't believe I didn't see it, but before it was specifically pointed out it was like it didn't exist. Drives me nuts. But I am really empathetic, so I don't become defensive. It would be more difficult if I also became defensive. Heather

Lisa, In my non-professional opinion dyscalculic students have a lot of the same problems as dyslexic, just with math. Some things my kids do: completely forget how to do something they already know how to do. Then the next day not have any problem doing that same thing like it was old hat. If they are having a bad day you can back down to easier concepts they should also know and they will blank on that too. It is the panic setting in: I know I should know this, but I can't remember, why can't I remember?!?! I once got my 2nd dd all the way back to what is 1+1 and she couldn't answer because she was panicking so badly. On these days you put it away, walk away and start over tomorrow. They will do all the 7x4 problems on a worksheet as 21. Switch between addition and multiplication when doing factoring (I think partly because the programs I use don't have you write out the symbols). I could go on but I won't. I find that dyslexic/dyscalculic can be very artistic/creative but can also be very concrete and literal at the same time. Not getting jokes is very concrete. I also find that they tend to be developmentally delayed all the way around. In talking with several adult dyslexics online we all agreed that we didn't come into many of our gifts until our 20's. My analytical skills really started kicking in around my mid 20's. Much of what you are describing might be ADD, ADHD or just a developmental delay in being able to see cause and effect and such. Though I do find that with my kids and myself that if you directly teach the relationship we can then see and understand it. We just don't easily go there ourselves sometimes. Though I still have times as an adult where I just don't connect the dots because it doesn't occur to me. I am running on other information that is overriding any need to question what I already know and doesn't allow me to see it. When someone finally comes in and pints out the obvious I can't believe I didn't see it myself. Luckily those times are not that often at my age. I am personally really good at seeing other people's perspective...empathy is one of my gifts, but much of what you are describing could fall under Non Verbal Learning Disorder. I have one child who has many of these issues and the biggest way it plagues her is she doesn't change tone much. Makes it hard to tell when she is joking, so everyone takes it seriously and gets offended at her. Makes it hard because I love sarcasm and so does she, but everyone takes her seriously because of her tone. Everyone knows I am joking because of my tone. Now I am working with her and teaching her how to completely change her tone when joking. Heather

Jennifer, Yes AAS is open and go, all you have to do ahead of time is prep the cards (all numbered and perforated so it doesn't take extensive time). AAS is based on O/G methods like WRTR is, the difference being WRTR was created for students without learning issues, to get the up and reading quickly, so it covers all the phonograms and spelling rules up front. More traditional O/G is sequential and mastery based. You start with short vowels, add blends, cover letters doubling at the end of a word, move to long vowels....covering rules in isolation till mastery then reviewing with a mix of rules/letter sounds already mastered. AAS is organized like a more traditional O/G program and I find I have to actually slow it down for my dyslexic kiddos. Other options you can investigate is if he can hear the difference between sounds. The third portion of this student test will tell you that. If he can't pass it he really needs to back up and do LiPS to develop the ability to hear sounds. LiPS works on how sounds look, feel and sound, using multiple senses to help the child learn to hear the differences where hearing is weak (very common to dyslexics). Also you can ask him if he can see words in his mind. See if he can take a word like lot, then change the letters in his mind so that is is backwards and read it, tol. Then see if he can change one letter and still read it. If he can't he might also lack visual memory of letters needed for the "it just doesn't look right" aspect of spelling. Seeing Stars (you only need the manual here) is a good program to develop that ability. Heather

They haven't set an exact date yet. Sounded like this spring sometime last I asked. Heather

Seeing Stars and LiPS actually weren't created to be O/G. Both the authors have a speech/language background. Seeing Stars in particular is sequential in how it approaches words (as in CV, VC, CVC) but not in how it approaches rules. O/G will sequential in both, and wont have a child red a word they haven't been directly taught. If your child can't pass the third section of the Barton screening they will struggle. LiPS teaches a child how words feel, look as well as how they sound so the child can use three senses to figure out how to spell words. A child can grow up without SS (I did) but they are likely to always be poor spellers then (as I was and still struggle with as this was only remediated with me recently). I was however an excellent reader and I think the O/G programs do very well with teaching reading, but if a child lacks that basic ability to "see" a word in their mind they don't have good visual memory and thus won't have the "bells" going off telling them a word is spelled wrong by how it looks. Spell to Write and Read isn't my favorite but that is largely because I am sequential and mastery in my learning style. After covering all 70 phonograms up front you move into spelling lists. By list 4 you are spelling silent e, dipthongs, double letters at the end of a word and words like of, love where the vowel doesn't say the sound you have learned it should (their program says o only says /o/ as on ton, /O/ as on bone, and /oo/ as in to where AAS teaches it also says /u/ as in of) all in the same list. It was meant to feed the child information quickly so they can be up and reading more quickly. For a struggling child this can be more like trying to drink from a fire hose. They might get it long term but it isn't an comfortable process. AAS starts with short vowels, then adds in blends, then covers double letters at the end of a word, then introduces open syllables, or long vowels. You take a very systematic approach to how you cover the information. Your child is young yet, so they might just be a little developmentally behind. There would be nothing wrong with continuing to work with what you are doing and adding in some AAS and hopefully some SS work. Time is on your side and maturity helps a lot of things. Heather