If you could read the OT without trying to impose Jesus on them, you might have some idea of what she believes. What you can't grasp is that the OT doesn't point to Jesus as the Messiah. She's trying to show you. First, you're cherry picking, and making the verses try to point to something they don't. You don't believe Joseph Smith is a prophet, right? If Mormons pointed to verses in the OT that indicated Joseph Smith's coming, you'd disagree, correct? Granted, it's not a perfect analogy, but try to connect the dots.

All of these students came from Muslim backgrounds, so I'm sure that had some influence. The men, in general, said it would be too expensive to maintain their different wives and children at the same standard, also most said, with a grin, that one woman was hard enough to keep up with/please. The women typically said they didn't want to share their husbands. Don't blame 'em a bit.

I've had a number of students from polygamous families. Most said they really loved their "extra" moms, but that they wouldn't want to marry plural themselves (men nor women). I imagine that at the very least "inappropriate" would be anything done without consent of all adult parties involved "appropriate" would be anything that all adult parties agree to without coercion. Beyond that, it's probably at the discretion of those participating. But, I'm just pulling that from my ear because it seems reasonable.

100 Internet Points for using the word "muss".

My father did for me, once. For my 3rd birthday, my parents gave me some sort of chunky plastic clock toy and I loved it (as you do) and played with it all day. My father decided to play with it that night with me and somehow broke it. I was so heartbroken, he went out that very night and bought another. :D I don't remember this, but I've heard the story from my mother and it's one of my favorite "memories" of my father. I think you did right! <3

We have _no_ external non-Biblical evidence of these things (beyond that churches were established). You're creating a circular argument and you seem incapable of recognizing it. Beyond that, yes, you've pointed out the verses that have caused many thousands, if not millions, of Jews to die at the hands of Christians. Well done!

Honestly, it sounds terribly fishy to me too. An Amish person would be very unlikely to go to their bishop about posting on a blog or online. They might post online, but they'd do so in a quiet way and not draw attention themselves, especially to their bishop. Similar to picture taking, etc. The website Amish American often has Amish posters and Q and As. No Bishop required. Discretion, yes. Telling a story about an Amish boy and girl who had created a child out of wedlock--I find it surprising that this story would be shared online by a practicing Amish woman as well, though it (out of wedlock pregnancies) do happen. Could be true, but I have my doubts.

I have an Amish friend who designs websites, actually. :) Yeah, Amish-Amish, horse-and-buggy, no-electricity-in-the-home, Amish. They don't have children or homeschool though. . . but, there are Amish online. (This family I'm mentioning loves Ebay--but they only access it where the husband works :D) I might see if they'd be willing to answer questions, using the computer at one of their Mennonite relatives. They're pretty fun; they may be up for it!

Me, too. I have to say that really examining the apologetics that I had been using for years as a missionary was part of what helped undermine my faith. Allowing myself to really understand the depth of the circular reasoning and other fallacies took my breath away. I was honestly embarrassed that I had been promoting these things. The "fact" that there are 40 authors who all say the same thing (they don't, but that's not my point here) is not at all compelling. There are dozens of gospels that didn't make it into the Bible. The Bible was compiled by sifting through these and selecting the ones that worked best to support the prevailing beliefs at the time. Some were even kicked out over the years. These 40 weren't miraculously written to make one perfect book. They were selected from among many, many "inspired writings" to create some sort of vaguely coherent whole. I think the "fan fiction" analogy is terrific. Well, look! How can this Harry Potter fan fiction anthology all have the same basic characters and ideas and themes if it wasn't all directly managed/ghost-written by J.K. Rowling? And, not one single Twilight story slipped in there! It's clearly a miracle. :D ETA: And none of this would prove that Hogwarts actually existed. :)

Weird! I've never had my doctor ask me any such thing.

Yay! I'm so glad you decided to do this, Yael. I was thinking of you on another thread. :) I don't have a question right now, but I know I'll have some, probably when I'm on the verge of sleep. (You have my favorite Biblical name, BTW. :))

You are picking bits and pieces of the OT and calling them prophecies of the Messiah. Jews never interpreted these verses this way. Those verses from Isaiah are not Messianic prophecies, and Jesus comes nowhere close to actually doing what the Messiah was supposed to do. You are attaching your own religious faith to another group's scriptures and interpreting them in a way those first people never did in order to support your own religion. Similarly, I've heard Muslims point to the Bible to "prove" Islam. The NT scriptures they used were certainly not how Christians have accepted them. It's not too much different than what you're doing to the OT from a Jew's perspective. It's the same sort of idea. If you'll accept the Muslim interpretation of the Bible, I'll accept your interpretation of the OT.

Ooh, me first! How, precisely, does one "holy roll?" Are there intricate steps? Can you link to a Youtube video? ;) :D

I practice mindfulness. Though I haven't done much formal practice lately, I do several "where am I/what am I doing/ pay attention to breathing" things several times a day. I do it as a mental health benefit. I've done it for about 2 years. I did yoga before that, and now I sometimes combine the two. I did a 6-week class last year for mindfulness to deal with anxiety; it was wonderful. My children and I sometimes do the meditations from "Sitting Still Like a Frog" :)

So, you might pray 6, 7, 8 times the next day? Do this progression, then do it again, and again as many times as you need to reach the right number?

That's what my Saudi students tell me, too. Hmmm, I'm seeing a lot of variation here. :) I was Skyping with a Saudi friend today, and she wanted to make sure my husband couldn't see her on my monitor, and she didn't come on the monitor until I told her he couldn't. Even then, she seemed to have some concerns that he'd pass by and she kept her head covered and her earphones over the top. Some day I'm going to ask her about that? Does it feel threatening? Is she worried God will be mad? Her husband? What is the feeling that goes with that? I realize it's just one answer. . .but I can't even begin to imagine what goes into it.

Ooh, something that just occurred to me, the 5 times a day prayer. Not all of my students do it, and fewer seem to do it each year. 12 years ago, if someone was at my house and prayer time came up, they asked to perform prayers in my house. Of course, they were welcome to. Several months ago, I had a number of students over, and I rather expected they would all leave together at prayer time (I heard someone's cell go off to remind her of the prayer time), but they didn't. I was perfectly happy to entertain them for another hour or so. :D I think 5-a-day prayer is a pillar of the faith, but it seems very difficult to maintain. Here in the US, if students had to leave classrooms, or jobs or whatnot to perform prayers, or teachers leave classrooms, etc. It seems to be quite an imposition and to really get in the way of life. I guess I'm asking--of how much importance is the 5-time a day prayer? Since Islam is supposed to be available to all people all cultures, etc. how does that work in this world that doesn't just stop for prayer? Thanks again for asking. I didn't realize how many questions I had. I think it comes from being in a position of being a teacher and feeling I shouldn't drill my students about their faith, yet having so many of that faith.

Our classes are small enough that there's no doubt who's under that niqab. :) For large, anonymous classes, hmmmm, you have me there. I'll be interested in hearing the answer there. I was fascinated watching one of my niqabi students drink tea under her niqab. You couldn't see a single thing except the silhouette of the cup as it went up and down and appeared again on the table. Equally amazing, a couple of my students, with whom I felt pretty close, and they invited me to their houses, don't have any sort of picture taken. I had wanted a picture of a graduate student and I together, but she said it was impossible. Not even in full abaya and niqab. She said that if a picture of her ever got on Facebook or something, even if she was covered, that her brothers would kill her. I hoped she was exaggerating, but I didn't follow up. I wish I had. But, my women Saudi students--probably 80% of them--won't allow any sort of picture taken. The rest don't seem to have any problem with it. The men--not at all. It's very interesting. Is this just a Saudi thing, or does this sometimes occur in other groups of Muslims? ETA: Thanks for fielding all of these questions. It's kind of you. :)

I love them too! When I was a headcovering Christian, I always wanted to wear the beautiful scarves instead of the relatively ugly coverings I wore, but I was sort of afraid I'd be taken as someone "stealing" from the Muslims. Now, I'm trying to psych myself up to buy something beautiful from Wrapunzel.com :)

Oooh, that sounds very painful! :( I'm sorry to hear it.

It was hard for me to get used to teaching women who wore niqab, but I got used to it, mostly. It's still hard at times though. Then again, many of the women who come to our school take off the niqab and have bare faces in the US but say they will wear it when they go back to Saudi Arabia. One of my students wears it because her husband wants her to, and another wears it because of her own desire, so she says. (Other Muslim students say it is wrong for the husband to require the wife to wear the niqab). I'm always delighted to visit my niqabi studnets in private when they remove their face covering, and I have the impression I'm talking to a "whole" person. That sounds horrible, but there is a certain distancing with someone who covers their face (though I know much of this is my own cultural training). However, I have had fascinating conversations with Saudi women on this matter. I told them that sometimes I had a very hard time reading expressions, and sometimes I couldn't tell if students were angry at me or confused or frustrated because I couldn't read eyes. Many of them nodded and agreed that it was one of the problems of wearing and interacting with other women wearing niqab, so I found that oddly reassuring. We used to have one niqabi on this board--I remember her saying that she'd never invite a woman in her house who didn't cover hair or face. She was uber conservative, from what I could gather. I'd never "met" another Muslim like her.

I was an Evangelical for 20 years, and most of the Christians I knew were wonderful people, though a few were bad apples, for sure. I didn't fall away from God because of people. As my children got to be 6 and 7 and were old enough to start questioning the things they heard in church--will my friends go to Hell if they don't believe in God? Did Adam and Eve really live with dinosaurs? etc. I really had to determine what I believed, and if the Bible was true, I'd double-down, and if it weren't I owed it to them to tell them that. When my 7-year-old was reading the Bible and asked if a woman had to marry a man who raped her that was a big moment. (Yes, she was reading the Old Testament. We had given her a children's version for Easter, and she was doggedly making her way through.) It wasn't people at all, it was a serious look at what I had accepted and believed for years and a soul-searching to whether they were the truth and where I could/should teach these things to my children. Now, I did have to be very careful of my interactions with my community (all Christians at that time) when we stopped going to church and believing, but no one drove me out. ETA: And when my kids are questions about religious issues, I say, "Some Christians believe. . . " "Some Muslims believe. . . "etc. As to what I believe, I tell them I don't believe any religious claims. My oldest is an atheist. My 11-year-old may be some sort of deist, he struggles with this when he says the Boy Scout oath he tells me. My youngest two don't question or ask yet. They don't have any memory of our church-going, Sunday-School teaching, AWANA-leader days. :)

I've wrestled with this question before, and I haven't come up a good answer. Belief in a god, in any religion or system on earth appears to be based on faith--a willingness to believe beyond that which we can identify by reason. Sometimes it even flies in the face of reason. I can't believe in a god that is perfectly loving, perfectly powerful and perfectly knowing because there are so many horrible things that happen to innocents for instance. Baby is beaten to death over the course of a year by parent, for example. Little boy is caged in dog kennel until he dies, and police officers find notes he's scribbled reading, "why doesn't anyone love me?" Now, some there are lots of people who believe in said god who can make that make sense in various ways (we can't see the full scope of what god sees; those children dying was a mercy because if they grew up they would have gone to hell--they died in a state of innocence; our human understanding of love is limited and depraved and it is possible for god to love those children and let horrible things happen to them, etc.) I did for many years, but eventually I recognized that it rang hollow for me. So, that pretty much cuts out the Christian god. I find this concept of this god illogical. And in spite of the Bible claims that this god is the embodiment of good, there are things it does that appear evil to me. The evil itself does not mean that this god doesn't exist, but the claims of its goodness/all-knowingness and omnipotence aren't logical. (Now, it could be that evil is good and good is evil, and that there is some sort of god that is playing these idea out on the sports field of human earth. . . but I don't see proof for that.) I could potentially believe in an evil god, and that human beings are struggling against it. Or a god that is not all powerful, but is all good. Or a watchmaker god. Or even a pantheon that exists, but that exist beyond our realm of knowledge, and part of their existence is based on us being unaware of them. . . Or that we're all in the Matrix. I don't know what WOULD make me believe in ANY of these things, but I think they're more likely than the previous god-belief I had--which is completely internally inconsistent). I don't see any proof for god/gods or Matrices, so I don't see a reason to believe in them. The evidence people provide for a god/gods are not at all, at all, persuasive.

I know the feeling. I generally say non-religious as well, unless I'm trying to stir up stuff. (I'm proud of my atheism, but it's not always the time or place.) For instance, I just say "non-religious" to my Saudi students if they ask (and they rarely do). Once when I said I was an atheist, I literally watched a girl go white and nearly fall over trying to lean away from me.. :D

Oh, Laura. Not to derail, but I love your signature. That's my favorite Lord Peter book! (Although I love Murder Must Advertise, too.)