Thanks! I definitely don't want to ruin his fun or zeal for doing this nor do I want to hurt his ambition. There is a fine line, you know. I was thinking of having him do a page for sources, just a basic list, nothing formal. I think after talking with him a little more, I'm going to encourage him and help him summarize more and copy less. I know he can do that. I'll read the information with him and help him more. He is a person who likes things done correctly. If I wait until he is done with it to tell him and then talk about plagiarizing, he will end up upset with himself. He will definitely put two and two together and realize he did something "wrong" or unethical, even if I didn't bring up his project. He won't be happy I let him do that. He wants to know when something isn't right and he wants to fix it. That is just his personality. So, I think he will have more fun knowing he is doing it properly and not copying someone else's words, but using his own instead and writing a proper book. Thanks again!

My just turned 8 year old second grader has decided he wants to write a non-fiction "book" or research paper of sorts. He wants to research different spiders and write a page on each and include a picture. Great! I love his idea! So, he got out a book on hobo spiders. He read the book. As he was reading, he took notes so to speak. He did this by copying the sentences he thought were interesting, not the whole book by any means. So, his writing is mostly copywork from the book, some of it paraphrased most of it copied exactly. I'm hoping to get him to summarize the notes he took, but I think he is thinking this is the exact words he plans to use in his "book." I couldn't help but think...he is plagiarizing. :blush: Does it matter? He is doing this for fun. He is in 2nd grade, never had any real formal research instruction nor any specific assignment of this type. He isn't going to be presenting this to anyone other than family. Part of me thinks it matters. I should tell him he has to summarize and not copy straight from the book because it's plagiarizing. He can do that. He knows how. The other part really does not want to risk ruining his fun. I'm so proud of him for coming up with this idea and taking the initiative to get it done with no real help from me. I'm not sure it really matters in 2nd grade. Plus, again, this isn't actually school work...though, I might include it in his portfolio for his eval since we always struggle to show any work with science.; ;) I'm thinking I shouldn't say anything, but can those who have been at this longer than me advise me on this? If it does matter, any ideas on how to approach the subject? If it doesn't, when does it matter? I'm sure I'm way over thinking this. :blush: Thanks!!

I'll give you a bump. I've wondered the same. We are switching to HOD next year from MFW. My one hesitation is family learning. That is the aspect of MFW that I really, really wanted. I have 6 kiddos, but because I have 2 sets of twins will "only" have to use 4 guides at a time. 4 seems like it would be tough, but I don't see how I could combine them and I wouldn't really want to. The purpose is to use the guide at the perfect level for them. Combining would mean I'd have to beef up or pare down a guide for someone. We are going to take the leap and see how it goes with only one guide for my oldest right now. (my others will use MFW 1st which we already have and the youngers are still not K age.) But, I can see that we may end up back at MFW at some point simply because of family learning.

Thanks. I agree I'm going to have to reassess when we actually start. I really do think it will be Bigger though. He might be able to do Preparing, but I have several reasons for not wanting to go with Preparing for 3rd or for our first year with HOD. I wish we could jump ship now. I don't know if you used MFW 1st before Adv, but they are SO different. 1st is very integrated and I just absolutely love it! Adv isn't that way. It has a lot less writing, notebooking and copywork than 1st did. I'm looking for that integrated feel again. I think HOD has that. I'm glad to hear it's very different than Adv, because I'm looking for something very different. ;) We are doing fine with Adv. I'm making it work and my son is learning a lot and enjoying it. I'm beefing up the writing and notebooking. We are moving quickly through though. I'm hoping to finish it by early spring. So, we would start HOD then. We school year round. Thanks for your advice and insight! Since I can't jump ship now, I'll just research and learn everything I can about HOD until we are ready to make the switch. :D

I guess that depends on your idea of cheap. ;) I like WWE workbooks and I find them to be affordable. I also have seen them used many times for less, especially if you can find one without the student sheets for WWE1 or 2. You really don't need the student sheets at all. We don't use ours because the lines are too big. I have them write on our own paper. I think I got my used WWE2 without the student pages for $8-10 used. :)

I can see what you are saying about the strength being LA's. Actually, I'm changing because I want a lot more writing and projects throughout the curriculum and not have it be a completely separate entity. We really like notebooking about history and science. I also want more copywork and dictation and such written in specifically. So, I'm picking HOD because it includes these things. I don't want to skip them. I was hoping to do WWE in addition to HOD and FLL instead of R&S. Spelling, I was and still am on the fence about. With Bigger, I thought WWE would still be possible because he can do a lot more writing and summaries than I think Bigger is going to require...though I'm not totally sure on that since I haven't seen passed the 1st week. In that aspect, I've thought about putting him in Preparing, but I don't want him in Preparing in 3rd for several other reasons, one of which being that his reading lags behind his writing skills. We'll just have to see. I already own WWE2. I won't buy book 3 until I look at Bigger and we are well into it. Then, I can assess if I still want it. We will only be doing the Bigger guide next year, but I do have 2 who will be in 1st at the same time. (They will be using what we already have and I love.) If it is too much or overkill, I won't hesitate to drop WWE. I believe you all that it's overkill. I guess old habits just die hard, but I do let go when I see for myself that I need to. :D Thank you for this explanation! I really appreciate you pointing out the differences and gaps we may end up with if don't go with her recommendation for grammar. This is what I meant by she knows best what complements and rounds out her program. It sounds like R&S would be a better choice to round out the HOD program. We use WWE as our composition, but neither of these include dictionary skills or the other things you mentioned. I also was aware that FLL was more teacher intensive, but I was assuming it would get less so after 2 since the kids are getting older. I appreciate knowing that isn't the case. I just have more and more kids coming up (6 total kids). So, I do need him to have that independence. I love that his R&S spelling is pretty much independent. Thanks for pointing this out. :D

Yes to all of the above. Math, and it's because of attitude. Secondary to attitude is because he refused to learn his addition and subtraction facts down cold. Now, he is doing higher addition and subtraction and really struggling. Now, I've put my foot down and he has no choice but to learn them.

Yes, it does. We memorize the poems we like and leave the rest. We don't do the narration at all because we get plenty in WWE. We also skip most of the copywork for the same reason unless it clearly pertains to the grammar lesson and seems to be of value for that. So, we mostly do just the grammar in FLL. I often forget it even has the other stuff. Oops! :blush: That was what I was thinking about Bigger not having written narrations. We use MFW and they have them doing written summaries/narrations in notebooking type form starting in 1st. (So, he writes his summary on the lines at the bottom and draws a picture to illustrate.) My son is very good at them and enjoys it. So, the one area I was thinking I might need to beef up in Bigger is the writing. I was planning to do that using WWE. But again, since I haven't actually seen the program in my hands, I'll have to wait a little longer to know for sure. At any rate, it's good to know I can use what I like for LA if I want to. Though, I might get their recommendations to at least look over before making my final decision. I think it would be wise to at least consider what she is recommending since it I'm sure she has chosen what will round out her program and complement it well. :)

FLL is grammar. So, it would replace R&S grammar that HOD recommends. It may be more teacher intensive than R&S, but I don't mind that. With WWE, there will be overlap. I haven't done HOD, so I'm talking out of ignorance here, but here is my take on these two together. So, HOD is very CM with it's oral narration and written narration. I don't know exactly what the difference is but my understanding is that the narrations HOD is looking for are very different from the summaries that WWE is trying to train the child to do. So, even though they overlap in writing, the specific skill is slightly different. Also, the dictation is very different. I *think* HOD is studied dictation for spelling. WWE's is not studied, though it is discussed before writing. One of the main purposes of it is to learn to hold the thought in your head. So, again, overlap but different. Hopefully, that makes sense even though I only have a vague idea of what I'm talking about. :lol: I'm planning to try to add WWE, maybe only a couple times a week. But, if it's too much, I'll drop it or drop whatever portion of HOD overlaps too much. I have no doubt it will be a learning experience and a balancing act. For all I know, we may end up really wanting to do HOD recommendations after trying to do it with other things and switch. I'm open to trying new things. I just know I like these programs. :D Thanks for your input. I was hoping you would respond as I've seen you on many HOD threads. :)

Yay! I'm happy to hear this. Thanks everyone. It's only Oct and I'm already wishing for next school year, which for us is July. LOL! HOD here we come!!

I'm very strongly leaning toward trying HOD next year. One one hang up is LA, specifically WWE, FLL and spelling. We really enjoy these programs. They work very well for me as the teacher and my son really enjoys them both. When I ask him to pick a subject to do, he will often pick WWE. LOL! I know HOD has oral narration and written narration (farther along) and dictation ala CM style worked into the programs. We are doing WWE1 right now, though we will move to WWE2 in a couple months. It only takes a few minutes and he never complains about it. I assume it gets a little more time consuming as we move up. Will we still be able to work it in somehow? My understanding is the two are quite different in purpose and even though it overlaps, it is still different...does that even make sense? I'm tired. Ha, ha! FLL, we enjoy this too. We are moving to FLL 2 in a week or so. I know HOD recommends and schedules Rod and Staff. But, we can sub any grammar we want for R & S correct? What about spelling? I guess I don't understand how HOD teaches spelling. We use R&S for spelling. Again, we like it. I'm not as hung up on using this though as I am WWE and FLL. But, can we use it?? The LA is a source of discomfort with switching to HOD, but it isn't a deal breaker either. I'm just wondering if I have options or if I really need to go with HOD all the way and drop WWE and FLL. I'm open to doing that. I just don't really want to. ;) My son would be using Bigger for 3rd if that matters. Thanks! :D

He is doing more than my 8 year old son. ;) Mine just turned 8 this past Saturday and he is in 2nd. Mine does less writing and less reading. Plus, mine isn't doing a second language at all. I think mine is doing just fine...maybe not. LOL!! Anyway, I agree with whoever said to ask your husband to elaborate. He needs to tell you exactly what he means by this. My husband is very supportive of me HS'ing our children. But, he would also be the first to tell you he doesn't really get how HS'ing actually works in practice. (he is learning though!) So, if he said this, it would probably mean that he is comparing the time my kids take to "do school" v. the time it takes PS kids to sit through a school day. He would assume they are not being challenged simply because they are not doing school for as many hours as PS kids are in school. He tends to compare everything to PS and doesn't really understand why it is different until I explain it. Anyway, my point is he needs to elaborate so you can either 1. help him understand why your son is doing enough or 2. find a way to up the ante because you agree with him. Good luck finding a solution either educating your husband or changing something up. :)

Maybe I didn't understand the question, because my first thought was something completely different. Yes, PS are lacking something major for our family...a strong Biblical worldview. Obviously, they don't have that. For our family, this is foundational and the number one reason we homeschool. We teach from this point of view. PS lacks this and therefore we have a HUGE philosophical difference. However, I also agree with many other points brought up here about PS's and institutional learning in general. While our faith is the biggest philosophical difference, it is just the first and most important in a long list of philosophical differences I have with PS.

So far, all of mine have struggled with it (3). I do start teaching them as soon as I teach them to hold a pencil, but I'm not going to fight a 3 year over their grip. That isn't a hill I want to die on. But, at 5/6, I make them do it properly. I have also had mine use a pencil grip. My oldest still holds his slightly off, but it is considered one of the acceptable positions, just not the ideal. My dd is trying to do that also. I can't really blame them...I hold mine the same way. LOL!! I have a lefty too. He does a finger wrap. He even does it with a grip. I'm constantly correcting his fingers. He struggles not to wrap that finger over. He is only 5 though...I'm working on it and expecting it to improve over time. :) ETA - One of my 3 year olds has a good grip naturally. The other, I correct when I am helping him. But, I'm not a stickler about it at 3 and the jury is still out on which hand he will prefer anyway.

My son has the same problem. He has an articulation issue. I had him evaluated by a speech therapist about a year ago. She did find that he doesn't articulate well, but it was at the very low end of normal. She said he doesn't qualify for therapy and probably would not qualify with the school either because it isn't interfering with his school work. But, he can be hard to understand, especially for people who don't know him well, but even for me. He just turned 8 and I feel like it could be a problem soon. I know he doesn't have many friends...only one and we rarely see him because they live far away. It isn't for lack of putting him in things. So, I often wonder if the other kids struggle to understand him since adults often do. Of course, we could pay out of pocket for it, but that's a lot of money. I'm going to look into some of the things you two have mentioned that we could do at home. (getting it done might be tough for us too, but it's important enough that I'm willing to try at least a couple times a week.) Thanks for this!

I can't see why it would matter what do you do it on. Of course, I have no experience with pulling kids out. My kids have always been homeschooled. So, take my opinion with a grain of salt. ;)

What about non-fiction books about science or animals? My almost 8 year old son (8 on Saturday) is VERY sensitive. And, on top of that, he is scared of coming across something he doesn't want to hear or read. He strongly prefers reading non-fiction books about animals. I know it isn't "the classics," but I think it is okay to let the be sensitive and avoid those things while they are still if they don't feel they can handle it. My son sometimes finds Magic School Bus to be too intense. The other option is to find a book, like one from the list pp mentioned, that you KNOW doesn't contain any upsetting content and require her to read it. And, one other thought would be to read whatever book you were wanting her to read aloud to her and have her point out the parts that she is uncomfortable with...while still requiring some non-fiction or totally innocent fiction. Just some thoughts. I'll be paying attention to this thread because my son is the same. He still prefers easy readers even though he can (and will with non-fiction) read at a higher level. I handed him Owl at Home recently and he wouldn't read it because tear soup was gross. I didn't pre-read it and didn't know that was there. Honestly, I think tear soup is gross. I didn't make him read it. It's below his reading level anyway. LOL!!

Adv does do this. I think it is a little light on the history. However, I realized the reason I felt that way was because I, personally, was not using the book basket very well. For us, to make the history enough, we needed to read more of the book basket books as read alouds. Once we started doing that, it felt like enough to me. But, for us, it did need the book basket and purposeful reading of those books. One issue I was having was finding the book basket books. I almost bought a ton of books on the book basket list to finish out the year. What I ended up deciding was to use every book basket book my library did have and to use whatever else they had when they didn't have the exact ones. My library has TONS of books on American history. But, they are often not the ones mentioned. It's been fine. Personally, I think it's more of a 2nd grade program and many 1st graders would probably do well with it also minus some of the copywork and written narrations...there isn't a ton of that anyway. I don't think it's enough for 3rd. That is just my opinion though.

Amy, Crystal is exactly correct. It isn't the whole program for 24wks. It is a part of it along side the history portion. There is still history to learn even if we skip the state study. However, I'm considering giving it a try. As a pp mentioned, I haven't even introduced my son to it. He may really enjoy it. We'll see. We will be there next week. I'll probably see what my son thinks and go from there. Through this discussion, I can see some benefit to this. Only time will tell what we end up doing.... :patriot:

:hurray: :hurray: Thanks everyone! I feel totally fine just skipping it if I want to....I want to! LOL. (Sorry, I've been feeding the kids lunch while replying, so my replies are choppy. Sorry about that. :)

I knew about it and still bought it. I didn't really want to do it then either. I don't know why I went ahead with it. Loyalty. But, I will willing admit we are moving on as soon as we can. I need to wait a few months at the very least, but we are moving to HOD for 3rd. If I can swing it, we will leave Adv and move to HOD after Christmas. I can't decide if we want to hurry up and finish the history portion or just do it as written until we can ditch it. I wish we loved it.

You are probably right. I probably should have stated that better because I thought it might get mixed up. My bad! We live in a similar state. You cannot study our country history without studying our state. I've lived here my whole life, but I don't think our state history is as important as country. My kids might and even probably will move. I have 6 of them. It's unlikely they will all stay in the state. Thanks! I agree!! That is exactly how I'm feeling. You are giving me the courage to skip it. LOL! Our state history is always studied as part of U.S. history, but otherwise, we would do a short unit on it. I wouldn't spend a ton of time on it. People move around. Agree. I would rather instill pride in our country as a whole than in our state.

I'm not saying our history is not important. We are studying US history. I enjoy US history a lot more than any other. I don't enjoy studying each individual state and the little details about said state. Yes, it is important to learn our countries geography and where each state is. We are doing that. Yes, it is probably important to learn the state capitals (even though I've never used that information having learned it in 4th grade) and we are planning to do that also. I would love to hear your input as to why you think it is important to learn these individual state details. That is what I'm looking for. ETA - We are also planning to learn the history of our own individual state as we actually do live here. ETA again - I'm now realizing you may have thought I meant our individual state. I meant the small details of all 50 states.

We are doing MFW Adv this year. We are about to start the state study. We will do a quick overview of each state. I'm dreading it...really dreading it. I'm just not seeing the point. Can someone encourage me and tell me why a state study is a wonderful thing and important to a well-rounded education? Hopefully, a better understanding of the importance will change my attitude. Thanks for any insight you have! ETA - To clarify, I'm talking about a study of all 50 states, their flowers, flags, year they became a state and other similar details. Not a study of our own state. :)

Yes, modify them to make them easier if you want to. But, do feel free to skip them. :)