I don't find that it punishes everyone. The rest of the family continues on with what we were doing. Said child misses out. It isn't typically during school time. The reason I send mine to their room is because they need time to get it together. Mine can't just suddenly adjust their attitude in the moment because I tell them to. They need time to gather themselves. They don't come down until they are in a better mood or having a better attitude. It isn't something I do for every offense. It is something I do when they need to change their attitude and need to be by themselves for a few minutes. It works well here. Different strokes or different folks. Sometimes I wish I could send myself to my room. :lol: And, yes, that is exactly what I do. So, I guess I'm doing it, but like everything in parenting...it takes time. Now that I think about it, my 7 year old does it much more rarely than he used to and I'm working one of my 5 year olds and one of my 3 year olds now most of the time. So, I guess it is working. I just want it to be immediate. LOL!!

I agree completely! My question is what do you mean by right there after her to correct her? I am definitely right there letting them know it isn't okay to talk that way or complain, ex "You are not to talk that way to me. You need to walk quietly to your room without commenting." I will often add time to the room time for every comment they make. It doesn't seem to be changing though...they still do it. They stop in that moment, but do it again the next time. So, what do you do to teach them not to do it as a general rule, not a moment to moment thing?

Yes, please elaborate. We struggle with this issue too and I'm not quite sure how to stop it. I send them to their room, but often, they complain and backtalk the whole way up the stairs. *sigh* Thanks!

I feel this way too. I would rather him just keep spell it the best he can and keep going. Then, correct/discuss the proper spelling later. But, my oldest is a perfectionist and he has a hard time moving forward if he thinks it isn't spelled properly. Maybe I will take the approach of always just spelling it for him if he asks (rather than sometimes helping him sound it out) because I really don't want him hung up on trying to figure out the spelling. I want him working on holding the thought in his mind. Thanks for your input!

He is actually a good speller. Most of the time, I find sentences with words I think he can spell and usually he can. I just wasn't sure what standard protocol is when he asks. Glad to see I was handling it as most do with the understanding that dictation is not about spelling. :D

Thanks everyone! I'll continue doing what I've been doing which is telling him or helping him sound it out depending on the word. :)

My son is in 2nd. We are starting with some light dictation. I'm struggling to find sentences that he will always know the spelling of all the words. Of course, if he doesn't know how to spell it, he will always ask. How do you handle this? Do you tell them the spelling? Have them sound it out the best they can? Help them sound it out? To me, dictation is not so much about spelling, especially when just starting out and learning the process. I don't want spelling to be a stumbling block for him. So, how do you handle it? Thanks! (I've seen Dictation with Dan. I don't see her address this issue at all in that video, probably because Dan is older. ;))

Okay, so my plan of attack to hang out on addition and subtraction for a while. We will put the books away and play games and try to have some fun. I don't really want to change programs. We like Singapore. I don't want to move forward with his attitude like this. It's too hard to teach him. I think once he is able to do subtraction (and addition) very easily, he'll be a happy math student again. He didn't dislike it until the subtraction got harder. I thought we had moved passed it when we hung out here for a while in 1B, but apparently not. I'm hoping to fix that. Just to reiterate, I don't care how he does his subtraction. I was just trying to say he hates subtraction so much, he does it as addition. The only issue is that sometimes he won't recognize that he is actually doing subtraction, but using addition. I feel he does need to realize he is doing subtraction. Obviously, that came out wrong. Also, I said I tried many different types of drills...to clarify, each of those was a few days at most. We have not done a lot of drilling, which is probably one of the reasons he does not know his facts. ;) But, I've wanted him to learn the facts in order to help him with addition and subtraction. He complains with every method I've tried. We have not done consistent drilling because of that. Most methods didn't last more than a day or two. Xtra math, he has done 13 times since he signed up in Jan. (I just looked.) I had the most success while hanging out on 2-digit subtraction in 1b using a whiteboard. I would put several problems on the whiteboard (mostly from the mental math pages) at night and he would wake up and do them. I did that for him this morning and he had a good attitude about doing it. So, I'll go back to trying that for a while in addition to the games. Anyway, bottom line, he hasn't done a lot of drilling even if I mistakenly made it sound like he has. Thank you everyone for your input and advice. Hopefully, I can get more fun into his math work for him. He has an appt next Friday. I just made it today while I was there for me. Good suggestion!

It's not a problem. I do the same sometimes. My point was he hates subtraction the most and his attitude gets much worse when he sees or hears subtraction (or any other way to describe the process). Changing it to addition does not make his attitude any better. The problem is he hates math. I think subtraction is the worst and coloring his whole attitude toward math. Apparently, I should have just said he hates subtraction the most and not elaborated because I don't have a problem with him changing it to addition and I don't tell him it's wrong, but it keeps being brought up as if I think this is problem. I was just venting and being too verbose. Sorry about that.

Interesting! I wonder if I should look into something that is more fact based....I haven't looked much at CLE. Maybe I should. Thank you!

Thank you! He does Xtramath. He is slow at typing. So, it's frustrating for him. We are working on it. Usually, I type for him. But, he gets flustered easily when he gets one wrong. So, it isn't working great and he complains. I actually have the same problem. I have myself doing Xtramath to in order to solidify my own math fact and also to model that math facts are important. ;) If I get one wrong, even just because of a typo, I get flustered and struggle from that point on. He does the same. I just changed him to the 6s for now because he is getting frustrated with 3. I know he knows some of the answers but trying to "race the teacher" is too much pressure for him and throws him off. I also do sit with him and explain all the vocab of math to him. So, he knows it or I tell him. However, I appreciate the encouragement to work on those facts. My gut is telling me that is the huge problem. I feel like if he had those down cold it would be SO much easier for him and his attitude would be much better. So, that you for that. I agree completely. I definitely don't allow it. But, I'm not really sure how to make him stop except by sending him to his room, which gets him out of doing his work...for the moment. He still has to do it when he gets back, but the attitude usually comes too unless I keep him up there there for quite a while. I have 6 kids 7 and under. I can't always get the focused time back needed to do math an hour after I was available to do it the first time. Do you have any suggestions for putting the above into practice. I do completely agree and would LOVE to curb it. But, I'm struggling to do that. Thanks!!

Amy - I think that is a great decision. It is hard to think about missing out on something that so many think is the "best" and has been painted in such a wonderful light. The thing is if the program overall isn't a good fit for your family, then it just isn't. I also agree with Gratitude that the best way to get the most out of a program is to stick with it. So, Preparing may be a great program. But, it might be amazing in the context of the rest of her guides and it might just be okay as a stand alone. I don't know. At any rate, I like to plan ahead, but you still have to take it with a grain of salt and really only solidly plan year to year, especially in the first couple years of a program like HOD or MFW. You may think you are going to love it, but you might not. Starting with Adv and going from there is a great plan. If you have any questions about it, feel free to ask. I've hashed out a lot of it as have many others. The heart of MFW is wonderful. I really hope you love it! :D Thanks for talking it out with us. I've enjoyed the conversation, especially since I have a "is the grass greener?" thing going on with HOD. Maybe after you've done MFW, you can compare for me. ;)

Thanks for the input everyone. I definitely need to do some games with him. It's been a while since I did that. Oops! As for the turning subtraction into addition, obviously, I made it sound like I don't think it's a valid way to do subtraction. That wasn't my intent. Clearly, it is. I often do it that way. But, I would like him recognize that he is doing subtraction and that the word problem could be set up in a subtraction equation. I don't correct him or tell him it's wrong when he does it that way except to point out that it is a subtraction problem and could be set up as such (but that his way is fine). Also, looking back I was exaggerating when I said he turns everything into addition. He does it to word problems, not regular equations. (My frustration was coming out in the OP. I should not have said always.) Really, my point was that he hates subtraction and he gets much more upset when he sees (or hears) that it is subtraction. He enjoyed math until he started having to subtract two digit numbers from two digit numbers. *sigh* Several people suggested the HIG. I have it (and past ones too) and use them religiously. I'm not trying to argue and I truly do appreciate the input, but I'm really not getting how giving a child who hates math and complains with every number more math as a reward would be at all rewarding. It would definitely backfire or end in tears. I asked him last night if he could tell me what he didn't like about math. His answer...."the numbers." (I worked to get more out of him than that, but you get the point.) Anything I give him with numbers, he will recognize as math. He was like this with learning to read too. I could not play reading games to help him have fun doing it. He hated all letters all the time, no matter the format. It was a matter of powering through and telling him he had to do it. It was a major struggle. Now that he can do it well, he loves to read. He doesn't like it when something is hard for him. He doesn't like the computer. So, giving him anything on the computer is asking for complaints. That is perfectly fine with me. I'm thinking we are going to put down the book for a while and play games. I'm not sure it will make him happy for more than a week because after the novelty wears off, he might start complaining about doing the math. But, it's worth a try for sure. I have to try something. I don't want him to hate math. If I can get him to the point that he thinks subtraction is easy, I think it would be a lot better. We hung out on this exact topic for several weeks in 1B too and it got better. I guess it wasn't long enough since we aren't even through the review in 2B before having the same issues. We will hang here in 2 digit addition and subtraction for as long as it takes. Thank you everyone!! I really appreciate the input and advice. :D

My 3 year old is just like you describe...he lies already. How does he even know to do that?? He sneaks around and takes things he was told he is not allowed to have. It does not matter where I hide it. It is SO frustrating. He is the same way about not realizing he is a kid. He doesn't understand why I can use a knife and he can't. I say he thinks he is an adult. He is 3 years younger than yours. I'm praying it's going to get better, but maybe it isn't. *sigh* BTW - He is not the oldest. He has 3 older siblings. My oldest is the opposite of this. When one of the other kids asks me why about an instruction, he will answer, "Because Mom said so!" If we are allowed something the kids aren't, when the youngers ask why, he will say, "because they are the parents. They are adults and it's their money." Ha, ha! But, then, there is my 3 year old independent spirit. I'm sure it's going to be an awesome quality as enters adulthood. It's just getting there that I'm worried about. :tongue_smilie:

UPDATE POST #48 My son, 8 in a couple weeks and in 2nd grade, hates math. He complains the entire time we are doing it. It takes twice as long and we never get done what I want to because of his complaining. Some days, he is fine with doing math, but it's rare and there is no rhyme or reason to when. His attitude toward math is VERY frustrating and it's starting to rub off on his younger brother. Just today his younger brother said, "If Zack doesn't like math, I'm don't either." He is in K. *sigh* He is doing Singapore 2A. He's done Singapore since K. He isn't bad at math. In fact, he's pretty good at it. He picks a lot of it up before we cover it. Singapore is the way he thinks (not me though). I really don't think the problem is Singapore. He likes the pictures and often colors them after he does the WB page. If they had no pictures, I know he would complain. And, as I said, he thinks about math like Singapore is teaching it even though I don't. He is being challenged, but not too much. I realized in 1B that we were going too slow for him. We sped up a lot and finished that. Now, he can do the work, but it isn't too easy. I think we are where he should be. He doesn't have his subtraction facts down great. He HATES subtraction the most. He turns word problems into addition. (Like, She had 5 cookies and he had 3. How many more does she have? He'll say, "you add 2 to 3 to get 5. So, it's 3+2=5" I naturally do the same, but he has to realize it's subtraction.) I'm really struggling to get him to memorize the subtraction facts because he complains so much about any drilling. I've tried flash cards, drill sheets (like the mental math sheets in Singapore), xtramath and drilling on the whiteboard. What should take 5-10 minutes takes us 20+. Then, we still have the regular lesson to get through. I have 6 kids 7 and under. We don't have time to do math for hours a day. Maybe we should stop the text for a while and just work on math facts. He knows addition pretty well, though I wouldn't say he has it down cold. I'd say he is very fast at mentally adding. Anyone have any advice for me? Any encouragement that it will get better? I'm very sad that he dislikes it so much, especially because he is fine at it. I don't get it. Why does he hate it so much?? He hasn't always hated it. Help! Thanks!! Sorry, that was long...I'm always long. :blush:

Technically, I'm an Arbonne Consultant and have been for like 9 or 10 years. Actually, I'm something else now, like a preferred buyer. If I joined at that title now, I'd get less of a discount, but I'm "grandfathered" in at a higher discount. I tried to sell and really didn't like selling. I don't tell anyone I'm a consultant anymore, but I could still sell something if I wanted to. Anyway, much of it is out of my price range, but it IS good stuff. It does what is says it will do. The products work well. Without my discount, I wouldn't buy anything and I don't buy much at this point. Before I had 6 little kids, I bought a lot more. I should let my consultant status go, but I don't want to loose my perk of being grandfathered in and it's pretty cheap for me to keep it up. I wouldn't go if you will feel obligated, but it is good product.

Thank you for clarifying, since I was wrong. :blush: Ignore me, Amy! :lol:

Well, that's a bummer because I've always been intreged by it. I was thinking of possibly doing Bigger next year as a bridge between Adv and ECC in MFW. (I don't think my son will be ready for ECC next year for reasons I won't go into now unless someone needs me to. ;)) I was hoping to get a feel for the program at that point and either realize it's what I've been searching for all my HS'ing life ;) or that MFW is really a better fit for us. I'd like to stop the "is the grass really greener" drooling, know what I mean. Anyway, what you are saying makes total sense. I feel the same about MFW K. I didn't fully get where it was going until we did 1st. I totally get it now and fully appreciate it and love it. So, I completely understand what you are saying. :D I do still think you can decide if you like the overall feel of a program and the way it's laid out and such by just doing one year though. It just may be harder to understand some of the content choices in that one year alone. At any rate, I still don't know exactly what we are doing next year. But, I have months to research till my head feels like it will explode. :lol: OP - Edited my info about when to insert Preparing because I was wrong...oops!! You will study US history again in the context of world history. So, Exploration to 1850 should have a good deal of US and 1850 to Modern Times as well. There is not another year solely focused on US history, but it's there in full. I love US history too. I can't wait to study it over and over again. :D

This is a good question. I've been meaning to post a question asking what people mean when they say "rigorous education." I'm sure it means different things to different people. I am striving for that, but to be honest, I admit I'm not totally sure what it looks like. To me, I'm looking for material that is challenging, but not so hard that it is frustrating. (Isn't that always the goal. ;)) I don't want my children to say school is easy either. Sometimes it is okay for something to be relatively easy, especially if the subject comes naturally, but too easy and they aren't learning to their fullest. What it doesn't mean is trying to push them forward before they are ready or faster than their ability. I don't care where they fall in comparison to other children. I care that they are challenged within their own abilities. For some subjects, that might mean "ahead" of grade level. For others, it might on grade level or even behind. As long as they are doing their best and working hard, they are getting a rigorous education, IMHO. But, again, I'm not totally sure what others mean when they say rigorous. So, this is just my interpretation. :D While they are young, about K-2nd or 3rd, I am seeking to be "rigorous" in the skill subjects especially. Those are the building blocks, the foundation of their education. So, we work hard on LA and math. We do content also though. What we do of content, I make sure they have a good grasp of the topic, but the purpose is to have framework for which to hang the details when they get a little older. I don't worry about the little details. By the time they hit 4th grade (we are not here yet), I'm hoping they will have a very solid foundation in skills and continue to build on that in the skill areas, but I plan to add a lot more detail and depth the content. Again, I want to challenge them, but not overwhelm them. I'll be interested to hear what others say. :)

What about dropping everything for now except Bible and the 3R's?? I'm not sure what you are doing exactly, but you don't need anything extra this year for sure. They are in K and 1st. If they aren't enjoying it, don't bother. Pushing when they are young and don't like it doesn't instillthe love of learning. Of course, mine moans and groans about math and sometimes something that involves writing. Those things are non-negotiable. But, I wouldn't (and didn't) push the content subjects if they don't enjoy it. Take them to the library and let them pick out science books from the animal shelf or books on volcanoes or whatever. Allowing them those rabbit trails is what really instills that love of learning because they are enjoying it. So, I would drop any content they aren't enjoying. Revisit it next year if you decide you want to. Let them be kids this year...except for the 3 R's. ;) Just a thought. Thanks for adding that. I was thinking about it, but didn't actually state it. I find in Adv the LA to be very light and therefore almost none, especially coming off 1st. :blush: But, you are absolutely correct. There is a little. I should have noted that.

Yes, take the placement tests. Here is a link: http://www.singaporemath.com/Placement_Test_s/86.htm

Gratitude mentioned just doing the 3 R's. I agree with her. The 3 R's are all you truly need. For us, we need the content subjects to make school fun. I'm not good at pulling anything together on my own. I don't find the 3 R's alone to be fun. I mean, my kids actually do like WWE and FLL. But, they aren't "fun" if you know what I mean. So, I want the history and science to add enrichment and fun to our day. We wouldn't get history naturally because it just isn't something that draws my children in without purposely doing it. We enjoy reading together, but without a schedule and at least a little guidance, I tend to not do it. So, I like the curriculum for that too. We do very well unschooling science. In fact, I take a very laid back approach to science because we get so much of it. Last year, we raised turtles from eggs to adult and still have one as a pet. We've done tadpoles to frogs and tons of caterpillars to moths/butterflies. We've even raised flies from maggots. (That was not my idea! :ack2: But, it was sort of cool. :blush: ) We have a veggie garden and explore the woods and pond behind our house. My son gets book after book after book about animals and science from the library. His personal reading is CLE's science readers. LOL!! He is currently planning a zoo he wants to open when he is an adult. He wants to include an insect house and he is researching interesting insects to include. He is all insects all the time right now! So, science is definitely not an issue and I try not to overshadow his love of science and animals by doing too much scheduled science. Though, he really loves our Apologia Flying Creatures. He asks to do it all the time. They get earth science through MFW. We don't actually use it, but this week it's rocks...so, I'll check books out of the library about them and read them the relevant pages in the ADV books if we have time. We just don't bother to do the hands on stuff very often. Anyway, I really just meant to give you my perspective on just doing the 3 R's. It's totally all that is needed. If you can have a fun day, just doing those, go for it. We do the content subjects for the fun and I need the schedule to stay on track. I'm glad my first post helped you. :thumbup: ETA - Focusing on the 3 R's is one of the reasons I decided that Adv was enough. It is the content we need for fun, but not so overflowing with content that we have no time to focus on the 3R's. They are the most important. They are foundation of any good education. So, any content subject needs to be secondary to that and support those skill subjects in the early years. The only thing more important in our household is Bible. :D

I've been staying out of this, but now I've read the whole thread and I'm ready to jump in! :D The other main posters on this thread know my back story regarding Adv, but I'll tell OP. We are just starting week 9. (It's been very slow moving for the last few weeks for us.) Around week 6-7, I started to freak out. I've used MFW for K and 1st. It included everything. Their 1st grade program is outstanding and full of LA's. Adv is not meant to include LA. I knew that. But, I still was very taken aback at how much LA it lacks. I was expecting more notebooking because there is a lot more in 1st. I was expecting more content as well. It felt very light. Now, 2-3 school weeks later (probably 6wks calendar weeks later), I'm feeling much better about the whole thing. I realized a couple of things. One huge thing I realized was that I wasn't taking full advantage of the book basket book list in the back. 1st was plenty without it. I was really expecting that to be extra, not actually needed to make it a full program. For our family, the book basket books are necessary to make the curriculum full. I'm reading many of them out loud. I am also drawing inspiration from other books lists, such as HOD ;), Beautiful Feet Early American History Package and some from Sonlight, though not as much. The other thing I've come to terms with is that it doesn't include LA. *I* have to step up and provide all of that if I want it. There is a little included in the program, but not very much, IMHO. So, I'm adding letter writing, a few extra notebooking pages here and there and a few other things. I'm not using their recommended LA's. I use WWE and FLL. Now that I've come to accept that I have to make sure to add in writing and LA's, I'm doing fine. It just took some getting used to for me. One last thing, I've realized that the younger grades need to be strongly focused on the 3 R's. Not being overwhelmed by content and projects and notebooking pages is allowing us the time we need to truly focus on those and still get plenty of content in. So, now that I have those things figured out, I am happy with the program. My kids are having a lot of fun. My oldest is really enjoying finishing up learning about Ben Franklin (today is the last day for him). Just a week or so ago, he told me he loves history and is often asking to read/do more history. I'm still not a big fan of the science, but I'll talk about that later. The point is, I was unhappy, but now I'm fine and even happy. :D Now that you know where I am coming from: First off, if you are going to use Adv, I would use it next for 1st and 2nd. I do think it's fine for 2nd (with book basket books added for extra content), but I don't think it would be enough for 3rd. Second, reading your list in the last post, I feel you might really like MFW. I'll answer in red.

I have no doubt they are missing out on some things. However, they are getting so much more by being HS'd that it doesn't matter. Much of what they are missing is intentional on my part anyway, like the negative influence. I admit some of it would be fun and maybe even good for them. But, nothing that they are missing outweighs all the awesome they are getting at home. :D

This is really cool! I found the radio theater version of these at GoodWill for $5. I really just wanted to say that I noticed the original post was written on my b-day. LOL!!