No, but it could be a factor.

Definitely. Considering that part of the punishment is to 'pay a debt owed to society' the idea that any debt can be paid in jail is silly and could be better 'paid' with appropriate community service. That service should be related to the crime. I don't understand how a pot head is repaying society for being a pot head by picking up litter. Also, there can be no hope for reformation or alteration of character when they are put into a situation so drastically different from real life. May just as well set them infront of a computer to learn social skills (lol). Reformation could be better produced if the service were in such a manner to allow them to see the consquences of their actions, especially the extremes. :grouphug:

That's hilarious, I wrote the fire hazard comment before I read your post. The lights are only connected during the day. We've lost our house to a natural disaster before and are very careful not to manufacture another reason to live in a motel for a year.

We have a tiny house, but I can put it in the kitchen in a corner and let him keep it till' it becomes a fire hazard. I didn't know if that was too indulgent, lol. Bean, I'm married to the Grinch. He's gotton better, but rather than rumble, we decorate early (his compromise to me) and take it down quickly (my compromise to him). At the same time, every kid should have a pet and if Luke's a tree hugger, so be it.

And here is where Julie's radical new public reform and justice system comes into play :) I vote for some community service, to be done in a local orphanage, foster home, children's hospital or other similar place. He should have to make life better for children whose parents were neglectful, abusive, etc. Double duty, he learns how to better care for his son, the other possible consequences of such thoughtless actions as his own, and is also punished through a forced interraction with kids that lived to tell about their parents' idiocy. I like you too Bean and agree, it's fun to disagree with you. I hope you don't mistake my tone, but your answers are really mentally stimulating and while our opinions differ on the finer points, I think in general we have much in common.

I have to wonder how long he listened to 'Dad, we're cold' 'Dad, can we go now?' 'Dad, we're cold' 'Dad why don't we just walk' 'Dad' 'Dad' before he finally sent them on their way. I am surprised that he didn't check on them, and I have to wonder if he didn't 'check' the road on his way home. Not seeing them, perhaps, he assumed they had made it there okay. Then, of course he wouldn't call, because he would've known what an assinine thing he had done. Not to justify his actions, but to consider the possible circumstances. Thank goodness the justice system in the US will at least to attempt to understand the situation before hanging him.

Normally, Christmas has been packed away by today. This year is different, because Luke has developed a real attachment to our tree. He waters it every morning, has us plug in the lights, rearranges ornaments, etc. How long should I indulge him? Honestly, I'm considering moving the tree into another room that is less used and leaving it up until it is finally completely dead. My two olders lose interest after the presents are unwrapped. This is a first for me.

I don't quite agree, but since you always have the good 'law' questions, what benefit would society reap by imposing a life imprisonment on this man? What would be gained, what would be the purpose of sending him to prison? This sounds very attackish, and I'm not trying to attack, but I am interested in your opinion, because your opinion tends to be very thought provoking and my brain could use some synapsis firing.

I would have to say the roles of parent and spouse have taken a severe beating as a result. Even when you succeed you fail, in the present climate. The idea that parenthood is some horrible situation you can't get out of for eighteen whole years is so counterproductive and leads to resentment in people that might otherwise have ENJOYED their children. At the same time, being someone's spouse and enjoying being their spouse, happily being their spouse, even when you disagree, even when you argue, even when you want to wring their neck, becomes a 'failure' because you refuse to 'stand up for your rights and individuality'. A fear that the self is lost in the family unit has lead people to attempt to maintain self (see excessive attention given to 'me' time, etc.) to the detriment of the family unit, especially the marital unit. The need to be a strong individual, self-reliant, independant, etc. has lead to a loss on the grounds of compromise, understanding, codependancy, and the ability to rely on your spouse.

I miffed that all up, didn't I? That wasn't how I meant it at all. I'm very sensitive where teenage pregnancy is concerned and how it is treated as a topic during discussions. I only meant that some of the possible consequences of teenagers engaging in adult activities (like sex), are not really regrettable, so to speak... okay, hopefully there's some clarity in all that mess. If not, suffice it to say, I'm sorry I came across that way.

(quote at end of article) While she said she doesn't understand the decision Aragon is accused of making in letting the children walk to her house, Jenks added, "I don't need to sit and yell. I know he's going through hell right now." I think their mother said it best (see above). The result is punishment enough. Did he realize it was ten miles? Was it ten miles as the bird flies or by the road? Did he think they'd cross fields? There are so many questions that should be answered before he is even charged with a crime. How terrible for them all.

Two oldest at Gramma's house, the youngest is using an oar to 'row' our ottoman through an invisible sea.

I didn't regret it. My girl is a joy, even if her mother was too young (that's me). The, sort of, advantage to being a young mother myself and wife to an ill. child of a young mother, is that my children have no illusions at all that children are only had within the bounds of marraige. They know the reality.

who? I got lost a few miles back ;)

In 'Kingdom Come' (an excellent movie), one of the women tells another, those that wait, regret their lack of experience and those that don't, regret their experience. I think, either way, there are some issues, for some people. There's also a song (can't remember title or band) that begins, 'son, it's better to regret something you have done, than something you didn't do.' I don't subscribe to that opinion, as a matter of fact, my opinion is the exact opposite (better to regret not doing something, than regret something already said and done). But I do think it is a good example of how the inverse of statements are true for as many people as the statements themselves are true for and that the truth lies more in their life experiences than anything else.

Lol, but there are some of us that don't ;) I have been in situations where my outward appearance was the best of a bad situation. I have been smelly and dirty, I have worn torn clothes, ill fitting clothes and clothes with vulgar slogans. Beggars can't be choosers. I have known low people who dressed well, smelled good, and appeared to be high class. In reality, they were base and crude. My assumption of the best in people comes directly from personal experience. I assume people tell the truth, I assume they mean well, and I assume their motives and reasons are good. I would rather err in that manner than otherwise.

I don't, and have found it to be to my detriment at times. My experiences as a child and teen, showed me the injustice of such treatment. I assume the best. I believe people at their word until given great reason not to do so. This has put me into bad situations at times, and led me to know incredible people at others.

Me neither. I love teaching my kids, and do throw in lessons outside of class, but I couldn't imagine having the responsibility of their entire education resting on those moments.

Yes and no. Because abuse takes the form of sex in many situations, I do not want my sons or daughter to think that sex is okay or good. I do not under any circumstances want them to equate that act with some sort of bond. I want them to understand, as my dad does, that the act that was perpetrated has no effect either on their moral standing or spiritual pureness/goodness/whatever. I do not want sex to be the prize at the end of the race. I want them to have a pragmatic, matter of fact approach to sex. It is enjoyable, when done with precautions, respect, and love. I want them to see it as something to be done, in its proper time and place.

Then be astounded at the majority of people in American society today. I plan on taking out billboards now. Yes, I am all about training other people's kids in my beliefs. That's why I homeschool, because I want everyone to believe as I do. You got me. All that work, and my plans are thwarted. Darn. Back to the drawing board.

They creep me out. That's just it. They do. I wonder, immediately, what is wrong with them. It's not a concious act, it's not as though I sat down and went through a myriad of reasons. It's my reaction. period I do not believe that not having sex is unnatural, unhealthy, etc. I was a little sensitive after so many jumping to the conclusion that my sons were going to be skanky dogs. I used you to answer them all, and take out my frustrations and anger that anyone would assume my sons would be anything less than decent, civil men. My apologies. I mentioned only boys, because the stigma itself is more attached to men than women (although girls are gaining). If my daughter were to remain 'pure' then there is an excellent chance she could find a young man who would appreciate it. I do not believe the odds are the same for my sons.

Bold statement: Exactly. I do not want my sons to place such a high cost on sex for exactly that reason. I labored under the dirty, used meat, mentality for quite some time. Should their lives fall into the same ruts of so many I have known, I would rather they take the pragmatic approach of my father* than the self-abusive approach of me. I would rather they see others, for whom sexual exploits are based in a self-hate scenerio, as my husband does. *my grandmother paid for her sitter with my father iykwim. As an adult, he says, '**** happens, what're you going to do? It was not MY crime, I was not at fault.' He does say that people seemed to TRY to make him feel guilty as an adult. That all those people that made sex sound so dirty and wrong (outside the holy bonds of marraige and sometimes even within those bond), always seemed to be talking to him. Finally, he decided they were all wrong. Sex is sex. What happened to him, was not dirty or wrong, insofar as he was concerned. He remained innocent. That taint and dirtiness was only on those people that took advantage of his deranged mother.

Oh, I get it now! Pardon me for being honest. Adult virgin males creep me out. Sorry that my reaction to adult virgin males creeps people out. :001_rolleyes: It's so funny, because people claim they want input, honest opinions, etc; and then when they disagree they jump down your throat. Your response would be the EXACT response I fear for my sons. The unwillingness to accept the opinions of someone different from you. The sheer incredulousness at someone's pov differing. The idea that, someone cannot express an aversion to something without being called unnatural is EXACTLY what society does today to those who choose to wait. They are considered brain washed, strange, different and all those things equal wrong. Interestingly, I don't give two flips if someone else wants to give their kids chastity belts or the like. I don't really care what someone else teaches their child where sex is concerned. I don't really care if they make sex the almighty, putting it on a pedestal, making it the unnattainable dream. Whatever floats their boat. I just find it rather ironic that people who would buck society and the 'norms' would be so against a thought process that ran contrary to their own. I think it says a lot that people laboring as the minority in a country full of sex, reviving from a sexual revolution, would point fingers, or attack someone of a different opinion.