Right on, sometimes I'm such a dink I surprise myself. I KNEW that. Point for you......

We're just 45 minutes from Fredricksburg, but the difference is incredible. I prefer 'rural' to 'podunk' ;) Really though, even the climate varies widely throughout VA. Are you guys thinking of western, northern, Chesapeake, Northern Neck, Southern.... lol, mountains, foothills, ocean or river?

We only buy for the kids, but this was the first Christmas where all my sibs had kids, so it was the first all kid Christmas. Till this year, we did a secret santa for the grown-ups, that way we all got one thing, under twenty-five dollars, and no one had to spend a ton of cash on the grown-ups alone.

(lifting one eyebrow, because there is no smiley for that) quoi?

DH cleans the bathroom. I never miss, he does, the boys do, so it's all on them. As I told him, once I'm done changing diapers I should never have to clean up pee or poo again... or until he gets old and senile ;)

Lol, agree to disagree. I have the exact opposite experience, especially where children are concerned. I have heard the most incredibly backwards people threaten to have children removed from their family members. Situations where you have to say six one half-dozen the other. It was the little girl's mother's statement that got me. She has no reason to be understanding or kind to him. They were not married/living together and his stupidity led to her child's death. If she could show mercy and compassion, then I would have to assume he was an alright dad to that point.

First of all, may I put your disclaimer into my signature? Second! Okay, when asked what was the most important commandment, Jesus put 'love thy neighbor' above all the rest. Why? Because if you love them, then the rest fall into place. When it comes time to count damage, weigh sins, and everything, I believe they are all judged equally. Why? Because when you hate someone, hypothetically speaking, you are 'murdering' them in your mind. Your hate translates to those around you. If you have a single friend in the world, or someone else sees that hate, or even the brunt of that hate is aware of it, you cause damage to them. All of the ten commandments can lead to irreperable harm being done. That, I believe, is why they are all considered equal. In the end, every one of them is the result of not loving your neighbor. It's like the classrooms where the rules consist of A. Respect yourself B. Respect others. At first it seems easy, woohoo two rules, then you realize how many rules are covered in those two.

I think you must be more trusting than me... I fear for you ;) I could not trust, depend or rely on my husband, whole heartedly, until we were married, and even then that level of trust took additional time to build. I did add the disclaimer though, it was a hypocritical statement, seeing as I DID live with DH for six whole months.

Bill, I'm a Christian from in the somewhere-in-between spectrum. I hardly know what KIND of Christian I am, but I was raised non-denominational, if that helps ;) I do believe that having kids and adults take oaths that could so easily be broken, especially for arguers of semantics, is wrong and is what has led to this completely dishonorable take on the oaths themselves. At the same time, God created us. He knew we would fall, He knew what we were capable of, both the good and bad. He gave us rules and laws to guide us to paths that would keep us from harm and from harming each other. As much as He expects goodness, He knows us. I'm not sure that God ever 'rolls his eyes,' something I've said many times, I'm not even sure that He has eyes to roll. I'm sure, though, that our actions, both good and bad, are never a surprise. All the same, I believe the 'sin' implied by premarital sex is more due to the possible damage to our inner selves and our physical bodies. It is mankind that has decided to shun each other. Mankind that has decided to enforce morals and put 'punish thy neighbor' above loving them. We've also twisted love to make it equal to sex, something that I believe has done much more damage than anything else the sexual revolution has given us. The polarization all around us, from athiests to diests and beyond, makes me think more on the Tower of Babel than anything else. Moderation is preached and ignored. The idea of a wide avenue, rather than a straight and narrow; of a God that loves us and wants us to succeed, rather than a tyrant; of moderation rather than any extreme; is one I find easy to grasp, but is out of reach of many. I don't believe this disability is faith based, but self-induced on individual levels and I do not believe the 'blame' lays at the feet of God or any religion in and of itself. As usual, the blame lays upon the heads of the people that would use the words given as guides and twist them into cages.

We have chess, clue, and cards.

Print this in big bold letters: Mommy has left the building. She will come back, but till she does this monster is hiding in the tub. Leave the monster alone. The monster will bite. Good day. Now, go take a hot soak! (My remedy for everything)

Isn't the current divorce rate 50% overrall? I agree, but I have a different p.o.v. I agree for the same reasons that I do not believe that my single friends who have been living together for ten plus years are 'as good as married.' When you live together, you're living together. When you are married, however, there is more responsibility and a longer commitment. My hubby and I lived together (once we were engaged) as did my parents (after engagement and my dad was HORRIFIED when my mom told us). We all changed after we were married. Learning to depend on someone, learning to truly rely on them, to trust them implicity, is not something that is done when you're only living together. It's just as easy to learn how to load the dishwasher the right way (my way) or do laundrey the right way (his way) once you're married as it is single and cohabitating. But, like you, that is my 'do as I say, not as I did' two cents.

His older daughter and his family all say he is a good man. I'd have to say, judging from a comment the kids' mom made, that he probably was an okay father in general. As to the rest, hindsight is 20/20. I'm guessing he and his family are all thinking the same things.

I think the DARE program fails for the same reason that many church run abstinence programs fail. They lie. Masturbation does not cause blindness or any disturbances in the mind. Pot will not make you crazy. Perhaps if there was more honesty and less fear, kids would be less tempted. It seems like most forbidden fruit ends up as a regular on the diets of teens and young adults. If you have sex, outside of marraige, and God allows you to live, then you have to wonder if it's so bad after all. If you know people that do drugs and they aren't crack head crazies, then you begin to wonder if anything they taught you in DARE is true. I agree that the emphasis placed on sex is misplaced. Relationships revolve around people, not "privates." Sex is an action, not the pinacle of existence, not something that should be placed above understanding of eachother.

I agree that the present community service system is a joke. It does not deal with the crime perpetrated, nor does it do anything to prevent the crimes from being commited multiple more times by the same criminal. That system could be useful, if completely revamped.

The way you put it, it almost seems as though the authority of parent is transferred to the authority of God, in that aspect, before the child reaches the point where the act itself (sex) is even a clear notion. IOW, I know that you'll know I can't be everywhere, so here is God, promise Him, because He is everywhere. Why don't people do anti-drug pledges then? I mean, drugs are things kids can avoid, they won't reach a point in maturity when their veins start to itch or they beat their heads against walls to get 'high'. That would be an easier pledge, and probably much more beneficial in the long run.

I hope it is made crystal clear that the whole situation was a blundering mistake from one end to the other, that he was not at fault in the least. Of course, it won't be. There will be people that blame him for letting his sister turn back. For not 'looking out' for his sib. I hope he uses this for some good. I imagine it will haunt him forever.

I would be wary of not allowing the situation in its entirity to be aired. If only, because it seems that there is so much more to this. In the same way character witnesses will be called to say he wasn't normally a blundering idiot, a full view of the situation could offer more understanding. For me, why things happen should be clear before any judgement is made. His mental state (stress, etc) coupled with the holiday season (stress) coupled with the situation at hand (stress) could easily lead to a foolish act. Not so much in anger as in exasperation. There was no other option, how often people think that when stress puts its blinders over their eyes. He could have honestly believed he was just letting the kids get on with it. Also, the second article mentioned that he believed their mother was going to meet them on the way. Although the veracity of that statement is in question since the mother denies it.

Thanks! Now, what exactly IS Epiphany, lol :)

Tell her, have a burial ceremony (if it's not too late), teach her how to grieve, tell her your beliefs in what follows death. If you are found out (if you try to pull a switcharoo), the wrath with outweigh the grief.

Oh yeah. I don't understand why the 'friend' didn't call earlier. I can understand parents assuming someone else would call, I can understand them preferring to search than to go in and call someone. Imagine, she was found just past where they'd stopped looking.

I really feel for this family. What a horror.

When considering whether or not the father is guilty of murder, though, the situation should be looked at as a whole. In stressful situations people tend to act, then think. The situation alone, a scary bump into a drift, the realization that the car is stuck, mom so close, but so far away, coupled with kids placing blame (perhaps well-place, but not at a great time) and demanding instant gratification (let's just go let's just go let's just go), could lead to a bad decision. It's not as though he hit them, or kicked them, or they ran because he threatened to use them as traction. He sent them on their way, most likely believing they would be fine.

Maybe it's all the pledges we are told to make AS children that lead to the idea that pledges are trifles?

When is Epiphany? Just so I do as should be done. :lol: