probably someone already mentioned this, but reflexmath.com is very fun, very effective and is not expensive except that they only have yearly subscriptions. also the rightstart math games pack looks good, though I've only seen it on youtube videos. i disagree that math facts are unimportant now. not knowing them in 3rd grade makes things really tough as math demands progress. my kids were skipped up in their private school from 1st to 3rd grade math, missing 2nd, and had a real rough time. One of the things that brought us to HS

Hi, I thought I would just chime in as I am a professor at a public university that has seen a 30% tuition hikes in one year, preceded and followed by other hikes. I haven't added it all up, but its probably at least double in the space of a few years. I think it is interesting to think outside of the box. My father freaked when I suggested maybe I didn't need to go to college (he was a professor too-- talk about CULTURAL). That was that. Then. Now, as someone spending all his life teaching students but with little hope of ever being able to send my own kids to college, this is something I think about. At 8yrs old my kids are almost half way there, and I had $26 in the bank at the end of last month! (ps. some people erroneously believe that my kids go to school for free because I am a professor-- don't know how that myth got started). I feel sometimes like those Nike factory workers who could never afford to buy a pair of sneakers themselves. That's maybe a bit specious, but it makes my point. First important thing: love and joy. that is better preparation for life than anything else. Second: I wouldn't plan on not going to college, but I think the very interesting thing about considering the possibility is that it might change your attitude about some things and your outlook, and that can be helpful, even if you don't change your practices. For instance-- why am I pushing my kid to read better if he's going to be a karate instructor in the future? I can think of lots of good reasons still, but they are not the same as when I envision him in college. It shakes things up. But I guess I didn't say anything about this really. Just echoing the OP in another way. Hope to have some better thoughts later. Oh, just had one: don't let things you see on TV make you afraid! And... in general, don't be afraid. If only I would take my own advice.

oops. sorry I didn't mean anything and was careless in not putting the reference to your point in proper context. Also did not mean that doing the copywork squashes anything-- I was referring to not allowing the kid to do other things, hovering, and correcting mistakes for ALL writing-- in other words, I was referring to exactly what the OP was asking about (this time, accurately I think characterizing the context of her question). Again very sorry for my laziness for sort of referring to a word you were using in your post, from vague memory, and not going back to look at it carefully. all the best, Alan

I can afford one $15 sub-unit of Mr. Q Chem right now, and my just8 yr old kids want to make "potions." Which one would be better, the unit on chemical reactions, or the one on solutions. Which unit comes first? Maybe that would be better. Solutions says it covers acid/base, and my kids are vinegar/baking soda virgins (or at least that's what I believe).

Really look into just giving him 15 minutes to work on his own stuff, without any hovering. It's just 15 minutes (plus a recommended 15 minute mini lesson first, which he doesn't have to implement, It's just there for fertilizer.) The important thing is to make this 15 minutes "part of school" though, and not free time. So he has a sense of independence. And yes, if you look at some student examples in the texts on writing workshops, you see spellyng and grammer mistaiks reproduced right there in the published books. Oh, the Horror! The anecdotes of kids "hating" the freedom might not apply to your kid. Sounds like it won't. Don't squash him due to SWB's theory. And yes, everything we say is theory, including what I say. At The Very Least: if you do nothing else you can at least alter the way you take narration. Take narration in the following way, it works well for my boy, who has benefitted a lot from SWB's theories. Note that this explanation of how to take narration is coming from me, an idiot, and it might be exactly the way SWB or others explain it and how everyone is doing it already. When you are writing down your kid's narration, make sure their eyes on the page and it appears as though they are moving your hand with their voice (much as in SWR). Do not let them run ahead of you. Do not (as much as possible that is) play catch-up. They have to slow down and process much like real writing. Meanwhile there is some backing up to speak more grammatically. It should feel as though they are pushing you, rather than pulling you along (although literally it can only be the latter, unless you have ESP). In other words you are aiming as much as possible to very literally produce the effect SWB claims is there for this kind of narration-- everything about writing except for the physical aspects, the spelling, and to some degree, grammar. After doing this kind of "magic" writing, after whatever complex reading came first, my son "writes" sophisticated sentences. This then translates into his 15 minutes writing workshop time. I do the workshop twice a week but I usually intend to do it more. Classical/CM has been great, especially taking narration as just explained, but there is no harm IMO in letting a kid develop independence as a writer, especially if he is wanting it. Channel those desires, don't squash them! all the best, Alan

tough one-- my kids do both, cause there's cheap gymastics at the community center 1x per week. they started mat tumbling at about 3-4 and did that 1x with some breaks up to 7. Amazing what they can do with their bodies! And how they are not afraid of heights and of spinning tumbling rolling around, and how they really-- how can I say it?-- own their bodies. I think at a young age gymnastics packs the most punch for bucks at any price. Beginning ballet is just hopping and skipping and (no small or valueless thing) stretching. Tap involves a little more, following directions, body memory, it's probably very good for kids brains. On the other hand, my kids, while they enjoy their gymnastic abilities and constantly show off for other adults, always seem to say they don't want to go. They don't show off dance. But they don't complain and seem to enjoy it. Also, of all the things my kids do, including every form of learning, there is the most joy in dance. The recitals are big blasts of joy that just wash over you, and its all coming from the kids. Bet that doesn't settle it!

Hi there, I am thinking of getting some science kits and looking for books to read alongside in a science/literacy combo sort of way. For the microscope I have a couple of good books on germs lined up, but for chemistry and chemical reactions and understanding electricity and so forth, nothing much. My kids are not great readers, age 8, starting 3rd grade and read at about an 2nd grade level and not 3rd. I am definitely not looking to challenge them but to sneak in reading joy somehow associated with the kits. As for level, for instance, DK's excellent book on Chemistry is way to hard for them, as is, I am guessing, the snap circuits student guide. Any suggestions? Mostly I am looking for books to read.

I still go around in circles on his site. The link you gave leads to another link titled "where to get this stuff" or something like it, which leads to a page that doesn't have labgear, but does have a link, which leads back to the original page.

I'm having trouble navigating Lab Gear-- can't seem to figure out where to get the manipulatives and where to get the teaching curriculum. I am looking to use manipulatives for algebra and other things for 3rd graders who are pretty good at arithmetic. I think I probably want lab gear for middle school as the lowest level set, but confused about where to get it. The authors links just lead to more links. I seem to believe his arguments but will go with CR if I can't find anything user friendly.

Pretty sure this is not a hijack-- can anyone compare MUS with C Ramones HOM with Lab Gear? Specifically I'm interested in the manipulatives and their use, but also interested in methods, etc.

Of course one option is to keep on going as your going, and there are a lot of compelling reasons to do so. But I read your message as "what can I change?" rather than should I change or just keep going. It depends what you are looking for too. It sounds like you are actually looking for some more creativity and that this is important to you (and possibly fitting for your child). When SWB is explaining WWE, she is talking about proficiency only. And that is what many of us are looking for. Sounds like you are looking for more. It's not so important whether the child you compared to is an exception, what's more important is what was in you that it caused a trigger reaction? Are you worried about stifling your child? There are things you can do about that. Look into it. As another PS vs. CE anecdote: my kids did K-1 in PS and 2 in a rather useless foreign private school. When I took them out and tried CE I was horrified that they could not follow any of the read aloud (like Aesops fables, pinnochio, etc.) and we could not do the WWE 1 or FLL curricula because of it. However, the copywork and dictation was child's play and in my eyes was at least 2 grades below the level it was supposed to be, while in my eyes the reading was 2 levels above. When I brought this up on the board, CE parents all felt the reading was not hard at all, because of what they had been doing all along, while several said "oh the writing part is easy for your kids because they were in PS."

Hi there! I think the strengths of CE while following the program strictly are in reading comprehension. You have to have faith in the idea that you lay the groundwork first in writing, and it takes off later in the "logic stage." But obviously you are wondering whether to believe in this idea completely, since other kids take off almost right away. I have 8 yr olds only-- too young to see whether the SWB theory turns out to be true. Am I willing to wait and see? No! I'm not going to experiment on my kids (well of course I do on a week by week basis, but no way will I do it for years). I teach writing to college students, and that has helped me quite a bit with teaching my twin 8yrolds, but I still needed inspiration and resources for that age group. The best resources for what you are looking for are under the rubric "guided writing workshops," and they are most frequented by PS teachers, but the principles are applicable to HS. The best book I have found is: No More "I'm Done!": Fostering Independent Writers in the Primary Grades. This is a great book that combines the philosophy of it (just like classical ed, you need to know why you are doing it in order to do it) with practical mini-lessons spelled out to follow. Sounds like you were following the WWE program closely, so you will need a bit of a change here to a more open ended fly-by-pants mode, but the basics of the writing workshop format is to 1. give a mini-lesson of 15-20 minutes about an aspect of writing, using quality childrens books, songs, poems, etc. 2. let them work on writing projects (with no prompts, instructions, maybe continuing yesterdays project or not, maybe picking up crayons and illustrating) in "quiet time" while probably playing soft classical music in the background. 3. Coming back together to read over the work, with no or very gentle feedback and sometimes revising pieces that are promising into a finished product (such as you typing them up, but never them copying the whole thing over) That's it. You gradually release responsibility to the kids. Since you are doing WWE and FLL, you can figure you've got your "properness" covered, so it should be even easier to let go and let your child create. The transition for the child might be difficult at first, since they might ask, out of habit, what am i supposed to write? And your habit might be to suggest something. I'm not sure how to handle that but if you can hold your ground without tears, that would be great. The book I gave you has a full series of mini-lessons to do over a year. Another book that is all about providing the lessons laid out for you is: Just-Right Writing Mini-Lessons: Grades 2-3: Mini-Lessons to Teach Your Students the Essential Skills and Strategies They Need to Write Fiction and Nonfiction I did not buy this because it's not on kindle, but I would if I were in the U.S. Hope this helps! Since you say your child is creative, I am absolutely positive it will help. --Alan

Any one know the differences, pros and cons, between Lab Gear Manupulatiives and Mortenson Manipulatives? (or what was referred to above as "Mus-like" manipulatives, which may or may not be a third thing).

The student guide is listed as age 13 & up (or maybe 12) and for most things my kids are not ready for the low end of what product sellers put there. Do you think 8 year olds who are at least average for PS but probably below what WTM homeschooled kids are like, would this student guide be any good for them? I definitely do not want to pay for another toy, and noticed lots of complaints on amazon about that (seems like no one knew about the guide). Your excerpts were helpful though. They can understand the pipes analogy. Is a lot of the early material like that? I think they would gloss over on protons, electrons, differential potentials, frequencies (and actually I don't even know what I am talking about, which may be obvious) unless they were presented in a clever illustrated book with characters (etc.) which obviously the guide is not.

4D is the physical world (manipulatives)-- :) ;) !

checked out hands on equations-- its even awesomer than a colorful workbook. It's in 4D! thanks!

Hi there, I think I am having avoidance issues being on the forum so much, but keep having questions. Anyone know of fun curricula intro to geometry hands on learning drawing with t-squares compasses and the like, that I can download now, for pay if necessary? My kids just turned 8 and are approaching 3rd grade, with very little geometry background, although they are already at about a mid-year 3rd grade level in terms of arithmetic calculating ability.

hey thanks. I am especially looking for things that focus only on algebra or paving the road for algebra. I was wondering if primary grade challenge math and or beginning algebra thinking are consumable workbooks? I have two kids and they like to have their own things. My kids struggle a bit with some of the SM word problems, but this is a different issue. Even I have to pause and think about it a bit sometimes. They devise really deviously logical puzzling questions sometimes, often out of the blue, after several easier ones. I think it's great for them, but it is hard sometimes to get the question.

I am looking for resources for early imprinting of algebraic concepts. Not sure how else to put it. Looking ahead, I feel that real math starts with algebra in later grades, and I want this to feel as natural and easy as possible for my kids, who now just turned 8. I would be especially interested in workbooks, preferably colorful, that focus almost completely on gently moving through algebraic concepts, and focus on little or nothing else. I am already happy with my regular SM curriculum and drills and games for arithmetic and my kids are progressing nicely with this.

Thanks for your replies. I guess I will intuitively find a resting place with this. I think I exaggerated my son's "problems" (based on the responses). He was taught phonics in PS (along with sight words) and can read aloud, with occasional guessing mistakes which have gotten much better than when I started and he was like a race horse running roughshod over a flowerbed, trying to get his " fluency" up. He does not struggle to decode, if he tries, or if I stand over him saying, stop, slow down, sound out the word when he meets an unfamiliar word. DB helps with this. So do nonsense phonics words. Left to his own devices he would guess his way through new words, probably because it is the easiest and most painless way to read his way through something. His comprehension and general level of interest remains not what I would like. So that is where the real challenge is.

Oh, just saw the m&m thing. great idea. she would love that "game" i think I am just like my daughter and that is why I think somehow deep down I don't want to train her, which probably creates lots of openings. I also am a fine speller and never did anything special to acquire that, so that chips away at my resolve to continue in such an elaborate program. can you say what it is about the philosophy that makes you continue with SWR even though its only about spelling? Is it just about the possibility that further down the road spelling might be a problem, or something else?

Wow, thanks for all the kind and concerned attention. Couple things in response: I did start lower to get in the swing of things, as the M and N prep was really daunting, with so many markings and rules to cover before getting started. I flipped back through the Wise guide and found H-1 list , which mostly had silent e markings and a few other things, so I taught those rules and markings and went from there. About the time it takes: to get in enough rule work to get through a list, plus train or retrain some phonograms, and then get through the list, is MUCH more than 20 minutes for us, plus much more than 20 minutes for me to learn everything beforehand. Part of it is the new cursive, and somehow I am really attached to the idea of them learning cursive and don't want to give that up, although I cannot rationally justify it. All the other time taken may be my fault, but my very bright daughter with no reading problems doesn't march on beat or jump through hoops on command the way that SWT sessions operate ideally, and that slows us down a lot. That may be my fault, but I just do not have the ability to make her conform, and I know this is in part due to her kind of smarts and curiousity. Her twin brother eagerly conforms to structure, and so was damaged by 2 years of PS: he is a habitual sight guesser, tries to "read" fast like his word-counting teachers wanted him to, hardly had the sense that reading was about comprehension rather than making sounds, etc. He also does not make higher order logical inferences well or understand complex sentences very well (although strangely when writing or giving dictation, his sentences are super sophisticated). I might be exaggerating a bit, for emphasis. Most of all, he does not like school, learning, or reading very much. When I first tried classical education I was horrified to discover how far he was from where he should be. Since then, I have been using V/V workbooks and IdeaChain program with him and his comprehension has leapfrogged, but I cannot say it was from that. I have also been doing Dancing Bears with him which is awesome, simple therapy for sight guessers. But the progress might have just been all the time spent reading together and taking narration. Also, time passes and kids grow-- who knows what it is? I am fairly certain there are no vision or hearing problems, but I cannot access a learning specialist where I am now in a rural, "third world" country. The progress made in a few months of homeschooling tells me that public school was the problem. I do like the idea of SWR and the like, taking the phonic reading down to the nuts and bolts. But I cannot do SWR swiftly and efficiently, due to both myself and my wacky daughter (who would teach herself everything if I didn't do it). And yes, in answer to one of the above questions, I understand that SWR is not directly itself about comprehension and that is precisely what I am thinking about now: that the time spent on SWR could be better spent on comprehension and other things.

Ok, so I was moved to go check out Dr. Lam's website and I can recommend Tai Chi for Arthritis and Tai Chi for Beginners to get started. If you are one of the special people who take a liking to standing tree, I would really encourage you to look into it as a miraculous fountain.

Oh great to hear that! The youtube videos I directed you to are high-quality intro teaching and are actually from a BBC series-- it's not joe-blo in his backyard. A great teacher and great, intriguing instruction in a simple ten minute package. Personally I have found standing tree miraculous. That being said, earlier I was a bit busy and did not get to the main question for you-- about intro videos. I definitely have the answer! Over the years I've looked through most of the main producers of tai chi videos and can without reservation recommend Dr. Paul Lam as the best for beginners working on their own in their living rooms. He has several highly detailed, multi angle videos for beginners and it the style is based on a very safe form called "Sun Style" (not as in our nearest star, but a chinese name), although he also teaches other styles. I can look through his offerings later if you are interested but its probably clear on his website which are good for beginners. From memory, I think titles like "Tai Chi for Stress Relief" or maybe "pain relief" or some such are the best beginner titles. They are not really videos just for the relief of what is on the cover, but very simple basic forms with a high level of detailed instruction which gets you off on the right foot. You can progress to other titles later. Of course, a local class at the community center can be great too. Tai Chi is a very "hang out together" sort of thing too, which is wonderful.

Thanks for your replies. In our situation, it's definitely not a question of beginning reading. They are already reading. I think SWR is a great way to learn reading. I did start them out in SWR quite a few levels lower than they tested (at H, when they tested around N), just because there were so many rules to master. Going through huge numbers of words does not help with the time problems of course, and I guess the jist of my question is that I don't see SWR as a sufficient reading program at all. Maybe as a way to learn to phonically pronounce words one encounters it is a reading program, but I need to spend a lot of time on other issues with reading, and SWR seems to take a huge amount of time, just in order to be a good speller. Initially I got into it as a reading program and felt it would be worth it, especially as kids encounter increasingly difficult words. It does help (how could it not?), but is it worth all that time and the sacrifice of time for other more advanced aspects of reading?