Hey, I just checked out dancing bears and fast track and it looks great! I still think that working with the auditory channel in SRW is going to be a great help and also feel relaxed in knowing that the kids will be great spellers in the future also, all in one swipe. I will also get the spalding book in the future but went for SRW because it seems easier to use. But... your comments about visual eye tracking I did not take seriously... I admit... because I did not understand what you meant. Once I saw the "cursor" method in the dancing bears book I get it: yes, my boy takes quick glances at words and sight-guesses, and this is a good antidote. The dancing bears books look visually clean spacious and orderly which I already know he will like (nothing is worse than a page full of words, to him) and it is a straightforward exercise requiring no preparation and no thought on my part. Who wants to think all the time? If I not mistaken about the Spalding-related methods, the ten minutes a day dancing bears work will only help and will not conflict. Thanks!

Yeah, a similar thing: my girl is wonderful at drawing in conventional eyes, but my son who is not nearly as dextrous has always had a sweet sloppy expressiveness to his art that melts my heart every time I see it. Or I should say "saw" it. I could not get the two of them to stop comparing and declaring his art no good, and he decided he was no good at art at around age 6. Unfortunately we have no English libraries where we live. And yes, I do know that my feelings affect him, but like I said I can't lie to myself and say the feelings are not there. I can only notice them and not follow up on them, express them, or encourage them (as opposed to dealing rationally with reading problems that are there and need to be headed off at the pass). I also have faith that these feelings as well as the problems are there for a reason, and both he and I will grow and be better off now that it has started to come to light.

He just turned eight and he has only been homeschooled for two months. Immediately I discovered the problems where before everything was "fine" in PS. Thanks for your insights. Obviously, if I bother to write my feelings down here as a problem, I am aware of them being a problem. There is no work to be done on them. They are there and I know why they are there. Of course, I hide these from him and yes, of course, sensitive little sons of their daddies are going to process it somewhat anyway. We all have feelings-- what to do? Some people are not aware of their feelings or do not admit them. Perhaps I should not have shared them here. But it's not just feelings, it's my experience as an educator of kids who finish public school education. I have an intuitive as well as explicit sense of academic problems which I sense my son has too. Of course, I come to this forum looking for solutions to these problems, i.e. identifying them, solving them, drawing on the vast and different experiences of the forum members in finding what might work. By the way, did I forget to say, as a college teacher, thank you to all you home educators for making my life less disastrous in the future? THANKS!!!!!!

Thanks so much to all for thinking this over with me. I am considering every word you say and open to everything. Some response notes: I still think there are no disabilities issues, and hearing and sight reading are equally uninteresting for him. Reading material choices don't seem to help (magic tree house is boring to him, have tried books and audiobooks and reading) and some things, like the Hobbit, are too difficult for him to follow. Last night I read the Logic of English kindlebook (I know, shows how obsessed I am). Does look like after reading the theory it will be tedious implementation-- but I still think it might help. Will try the learning style quiz, though I wonder how reliable it can be. It is obvious he is not as visual as his twin sister, who is doing excellently. One thing I did not mention is that when I take narration for him, his sentence structure and the complexity of his "written" expression is impressive, better even than his achieving twin sister, better than a good half the college students I teach (which is however not saying much). As I am a writer myself, I recognize this as an at least partial writing talent. However the accuracy and pertinence of his dictations to me in relation to the reading are of course quite poor. So for now my plan is to Spelling to Read and Write, IdeaChain and V/V workbooks, Read aloud and Narration, and some copywork and dictation. That's a whole day right there. It also doesn't solve the deeper problem (in my eyes) about the lack of interest in reading anything about the world we live in or can imagine. It's hard for me because of the comparison with his twin sister and with myself as a child and most other children I see-- they always seem to be into *something*

Thanks! My son can't be exercised into calmness-- just a five minute break is all he needs to recover from anything. He has learned to wriggle in place while learning, which beats what it was like previously. In school classrooms he is obedient and fairly docile as he has great respect for authority. Even though he can read quickly and does know phonics, I am thinking of a reading makeover, with possibly Spelling to Read and Write. Logic of English is new to me-- seems similar. Thanks for the suggestion, as the games at least certainly might work great. I wonder though if these phonics based programs will be boring and make reading even more of a chore. Both SRW and LoE do not seem a ton of fun (as programs) but I figure if exciting stories are boring for him, then what do I have to lose?

any ideas or links about ways to get a boyish boy wriggler to be interested in reading? anyone have similar problems?

I have bought the K-2 World History (egypt and indus valley) and the K-2 earth and space units, and so far used the Egypt part. I do not know if the various units differ widely in content, but here is how I would describe what I got: basically, the units a series of web links to online content, interspaced with some hastily constructed not terribly bad or inspiring workbook pages (fluff). Somehow it miraculously adds up to about 100 pages, by fluffing it up with useless things. For instance, in the spelling words page, is bunch of text saying its a good idea to look up spelling words and then a link to an online dictionary. I thought it would identify potentially tricky words with definitions, but no, just a one page link to a dictionary and encouragement to do it. There are pages with long lists of materials to gather for the many activities they suggest. The links are of varying quality. My kids loved a website where you can use your keyboard to type in hieroglyphs, for instance. One web-page about life in ancient egypt was a lackluster text to read, not better than SOTW. A low quality youtube video about egypt was in there, along with other stuff. All that being said, some of the activity ideas were good and some of the links as well. For me, the $15 I paid was worth it for someone to find a few good links. If you are looking for something substantial, the units I purchased will not cut it at all. But if you are looking for fun enrichment activities this is great stuff. Note that everything I said here may not apply to the units you are considering. all the best, Alan

Hi there, I am making some (a little) progress in figuring out my just turned 8 yr old son's problems, which are more based on what I believe (want) is good for him rather than real learning disabilities. He can meet standardized testing, but I am from an academic family and just want something similar for him: to do well in school. I can tell he has reading problems even though he does well according to PS expectations. We cannot afford testing or therapy, and after all this really partly about wanting more achievement. here are the problems: 1. he does not enjoy reading or even storytime. even in my exciting read alouds (really!) if I stop just as the space salamanders are about to board the hero's ship, and say, shall we stop now? he will be grateful to stop, while his twin sister will squeal and squirm in expectable ways, no! no! he was introduced to reading in a high pressure, read for speed public school, and reads fairly fast, GUESSING and misrecognizing a lot of words. 2. His ability to follow a story, absolutely in slightly dated english such as the WTM materials or CM uses, but including contemporary, is weak. I have been building up in increments with frequent narration as well as starting V/V work to some effect. But this does not necessarily translate into liking reading, which is what really bothers me. My idea is to work on visualization skills (I have V/V workbooks and am ordering IdeaChain), but I am also coming to believe the problem identified by phonics advocates is his as well. What can I do to rectify a reader overly focused on sight recognition, who frequently misrecognizes and mis-guesses words as he makes his way through a sentence? What can I do about the general problem of him not liking reading or even being read to? The obvious things, like the right stories, being more entertaining myself, eliminating TV and games, one can assume I have tried. Also, by asking all this it can be assumed that just accepting his difference is not what I am asking about (although of course I will to some degree, of course). I want to head off potential problems I see brewing, based in my values. This boy is a genius on the Tae Kwon Do mat, very boyish and active in every way, is good at math, but it pains me that he does not seem to take an interest in anything at all to do with school (likes homeschooling better than PS however). Not dinosaurs, not outerspace, not pirates, nothing at all. Although he has a phonics skill set, he was taught high frequency sight words as well. I have become especially alarmed after reading "Why Johnny Can't Read" and feel there is some merit to the arguments put forth there. Can you help me? thanks, Alan

No, thanks so much and I will keep up with this. It is another case of me being fairly sure my child needs it, and their difficulty with it being just more evidence of the need. Although my children could probably do just fine forever in the public schools and with that sort of testing, I think they need remediation in order to gain the reading and comprehension skills that make a thoughtful child. Or perhaps I should say one child, my daughter, it doesn't really matter what sort of education she has, she will still be whatever force is inside her wants her to be. Her twin brother, however, is vulnerable to outside influences and mainstream culture and needs to be led and formed somewhat. I didn't realize it until so late. So, visualize it will be. The workbook samples, it turned out, were a lot easier going as they are so directed and focused. thanks again, Alan

Hi! Just reading this moments after my first session using the sample questions and the introductory visualizations and picture work as recommended in the thread and links. It did try my patience a bit, even with the samples. The kids I think were a little better at picturing than they were at verbalizing. Have not tried the workbook samples yet. So far, it was not exciting or interesting work to do this with them but I think it is necessary so I will try my best to get through it. Remediation is not much fun!

It doesn't have to be free, just need it electronic and printable. I am in a remote location and can't order books. My just turned 8 year olds know a little cursive but I would start them at the beginning anyway, grade 2. I like the Universal books recommended on another thread today but they are made of matter, as far as I can tell. thanks! Alan

Thanks! Just today I had the chance to get Dahl books (practically the only books around in my remote location for some reason) but passed because BFG was a bit difficult going. Should have looked into it closer! BTW, my kids are 8 years old and a handful of days, but perhaps their ability to follow narrative is more like 5. They can kick the daylights out of a standardized test, though! Just wish that meant anything helpful for their character. To others: the problem with audiobooks is they have no interest at all. They just don't listen at all. It probably just sounds like chatter to them, at least at the speed it is read. Will have to go down many notches to get somewhere recorded audio-wise.

Wow, thanks! This really adds some dimensions to it for me. Especially helps me to back up right to the beginning in introducing this. I got on this tack because the workbooks were recommended to me by someone on this forum. However the workbooks themselves seemed.... well... kind of *workbooky* to me (what else could they be, of course) and it seemed a lot of the answers could be arrived at without any visualization. But this is the second time it was said to me that it's the workbooks I really want, so... Again thanks. Can't wait to put this to good use. Alan

I cannot find an audiobook that holds their attention. Any recommendations? Audiobooks seem harder to follow even than having me physically present reading. If they were to get into audiobooks it would need to be far below their grade level, I would think. Something like Charlotte's Web read by the author, or even Stuart Little read by a professional, cannot hold their attention. I have also tried something called Charlie's Moon or something like that, which also did not work. Alan

Hi, I am overseas and cant order books, but would like to use the visualizing and verbalizing approach with my twin b/g 8-year old fluent decoders and poor listeners. I have read online samples at the press. Since I cannot use this approach with the official materials, I was hoping to implement it in read alongs. Here are the main things I have, from browsing samples, come up with to do: 1. At pauses in the reading, when some scene or object is described or visually evocative thing happens, ask them to picture it in their minds and describe what they see to me. Sometimes, I read back over the relevant text. 2. Ask the kids what they would do, or how they would feel, if they were this or that character in this or that situation. Ask them, if appropriate, what do they see now, in this position? Or smell, touch, etc. 3. Ask kids to draw a scene that they have just read/heard about Can you think of some other ways i could incorporate v/v, specifically, into our reading? Any online resources you can recommend. I believe that this idea of a visual gestalt is on the right track, although my main reason for believing in it, I have to admit, is simply because that is how I process and experience narrative myself. Thanks! Alan

My Father's Dragon, which was a free download, and suggested here in this thread, was today about as close to a hit as we have gotten so far. My boy said it was his favorite so far, even though he missed most of what was going on at a paragraph by paragraph level, and was quite happy when the 15 minutes were finally over. My daughter had almost perfect comprehension. I am limited to downloads for the next few months as I am overseas without bookstores: but I can't wait for the fried worms book! I remember that one as a child, very much so. Are there good books to use that are even a step down a level from my father's dragon, and just as likely to please? Thanks again. Lots more great suggestions. As for a few points made: I can tell very easily that it is a comprehension problem and not an expression problem, though by no means are my children exceptionally articulate at all. We are all very close and its easy to see what's going on. I looked into Verbalizing and Visualizing and believe it could be of some help. I am asking them to describe and picture various things in the reading pauses as well as to imagine themselves in the place of the characters in various situations. Too soon to see if this approach works but it's my best estimation and imitation of the V/V approach based on what I can glean.

Wow! Thanks so much. The great suggestions keep pouring in and also many helpful links. This is about the most active mutual support forum I have ever seen on the web. Hmm... I wonder what does that say about what it's like to homeschool?:blink: I agree that the trouble is in part due to the fact that my way, up to now, was to read fun books with them and make everything joyous and easy. I was reading books that were in my eyes well written and creative, but not classic. Also, we have spent a lot of time and emphasis on music, art, and dance and with public school have not read two hours a day together at all. I realize that others have been producing that joy with classic tales early on, with different results, now, than mine. It also took me a while to go from horror at my public school to pulling out. The reading they had was pure drivel-- worse than see spot go, (but it did teach them to decode and read). My worst moment was coming into the classroom to find a big paper tree on the wall, with different branches representing a higher number of words read per minute. The little six year olds were each "leaves" with names on them arranged for all to see from highest to lowest branches based on their reading speed. My son still shows signs of reading as fast as possible including too-quick recognition errors and not comprehending: all the brain is devoted to word recognition. This is of course not the problem when I am reading to them, however. I am actually more into Charlotte Mason than anything, but because I was unable to get anywhere with narration I turned to WTM for a more guided and structured approach. Well, at least I got the ideas and also all this great help on this board. Probably the best thing so far is that we are about 1/3 of the way through Charlotte's web. Stopping about once per page, I can get some comprehension but still there is a huge vocabulary gap (too big to fill with pre-learning) and many sentences are too complex (but, oh, so beautifully written, and inconspicuously so) to follow, which results in losing a grip on the scene. Lots of fantastic copywork samples there, though. I think what I am taking away from this forum thread is maybe to just go on, make do, and read and read until something catches. And to those who say there is nothing unusual about their 5-year-old being able to follow a long Aesop fable no problem, and an 8-year old who can't probably has a problem that needs checking into: I say you are living in a bubble. Great! You say your child is normal but I say you and your child are great! You are already getting spectacular results that do not at all compare with what's "normal" out in the rest of the world. I am sure of this. Keep going! We will get there too someday soon.:)

Thanks again. Picking up lots of great suggestions. Most of these boil down to the WWE and FLL curriculum being either not well designed or just not right for my kids where they are at now. I have been reading picture books and fun stuff with them. I have never read a classic book to them before. In answer to other questions: mostly it is the unusual language and length of the passages which seem too difficult to follow. I don't think it is a learning disability, but it could be a public school "acquired disability." Still, I have to answer that yes, reading the passages in the WWE level 1, excepting the first couple of them, my "gifted" child cannot follow it. Nor, with an average length Aesop can she follow it. Her twin brother, the same. It does not seem strange to me that they cannot follow it, nor can I imagine any of their friends being able to either. I have trouble imagining that my situation here is terribly unique. I agree wholeheartedly that this is a great skill to impart ASAP, and I am very motivated to do so. However, I feel I chucked a big chunk of money away here, getting too motivated, when it was really the principle of it and not the curriculum I should have been excited about. I can't really force my kids through these lessons when they are not ready. Also, as a university professor in a california public university of almost the highest level, I can attest to the sorry state of public education. A majority of my students come to university in a state that is in my eyes basically barely literate. Once I assigned an ordinary science fiction book because I thought it would be a fun way to talk about particular ideas. Instead, we had to try and figure out together what was going on in the book, who what who and what was happening, etc. I really don't want my kids to turn out that way but I see it coming already, right here in what we are talking about now. Good thing I caught it now.

Also checked out the visualizing sites, can't seem to find any samples though. This looks like an intriguing way to go and your good experience is very encouraging. The fact that you ditched WWE is another thing, though I understand why. I read their book and just got caught up in perfect confidence that it was a well designed curriculum, but now it seems a little haphazard.

Thanks! That's really helpful. I think I might not be communicating too well sometimes, but I meant that there is no narration to take down with my kids because they can't understand anything from the passages. I do realize this is in part due to the fact that they did not need to understand in school to complete their worksheets or whatever, and the reading they got was pure drivel. This is a whole new thing for them. It is interesting to hear that they are not expected to be able to do the exercises in the curriculum until 30+ weeks into it. I just assumed that the passages given in the curriculum were considered appropriate for that level. But if the point is not to be able to do it, but just to be challenged, then it's working! Actually, in fact the worse they are at it the more it makes me believe in the value of classical education and worry about the ill state of affairs in public school. I have tried Aesops for Children but it is still too difficult for them to follow, although the very short ones are better. Probably I should do some combination of challenge them with this curriculum and make my own easier one for them out of picture books and the like. And yes, it was right after doing those Pinochio and Rumplestiltzkin passages that I came to the forum asking for help! thanks again, Alan

I guess I wasn't clear: I am not saying I need to go UP in levels, I am saying my kids cannot follow narration read to them even at the lowest levels provided by WWE, or Level 2 FLL. When I try the sample dialogues they go nowhere, because the kids cant follow anything from these long and difficult passages. My point about them being intelligent was just to say that its not because they are not intelligent, and that possibly other parents have had difficulty with the narrations? I can, and I suppose will, have to design my own curriculum for them, but it seems such a shame what with this curriculum already done up so thoughtfully by others, and paid for by me. Another way to put it is that it seems the narration is way harder than the copywork or dictation exercises... like they are at least two years apart in level of difficulty.

Hi there, I have recently started homeschooling my twin just-turned-8-yesterday-year-olds. My problem is the WWE and FLL narration passages are WAY too difficult for my children to follow. I am trying level 1 WWE only, with kids who are almost done with 2nd grade (albeit public school). For FLL, it is level 2 that I am starting with. Copywork, etc. is super easy for them, and I need to design my own exercises or go up levels for that. But I can't even get off the level 1 ground with them on comprehension. This is true whether just listening, reading along, or reading themselves (they know how to read). Besides the fact that the readings (after the first couple of little house in the woods excerpts) are always peppered with advanced words (often at least 20 or more-- too many to go over), the passages are long and complex and often employ stylistically very unusual forms of expression (which I happen to like personally, as an adult). When I try the sample dialogues, I just get blank expressions. I bought into the curriculum in part for precisely these scripted lessons, which however are unusable at the moment. I am invested heavily in a classical education (hundreds now to WTM materials, but also in terms of faith and confidence in the principles, including thinking how great it would be to hone the mind on the aforementioned difficult materials) Only problem is: it doesn't seem to be getting off the ground, because it's just too hard for them to follow. Because my children are intelligent, I can't help feeling other people have had the same experience. Any advice? I am left only with the option of designing my own narration curriculum until such a time as my 8-- or will it be 9 or 10-- year olds are ready for 1st grade narration in this curriculum. I should add that I am an educator myself and know how to read aloud-- it's just way too hard for them, even at the entry 1st grade level. My daughter was identified for special advanced placement in her public school district but we left the district after that. They were in public school K-1 in California, and this year did 2 out 3 terms of 2nd Grade in international private school in Thailand. Any advice? Alan