They are apparently changing their pricing structure (again!), and it will be too costly for retailers to carry their products. I have a good friend who owns a homeschool bookstore and she, as well as the big homeschool retailer in Houston, have said that once they sell out of their current inventory, that will be it... they won't be carrying the product line anymore. Just thought y'all might like to know so you can check into this with whatever retailer you use and stock up if necessary. Robin

I've had CNN on all afternoon while I did housework. There are quite a few analysts who are cautiously optimistic. GDP is still growing (slightly, but still...). There are some sectors that are growing. Now that the fed has quit cutting interest rates the value of the of the dollar ought to improve. Some think that the speculation that has driven the oil prices has created a bubble that is bound to correct. A few think we're about at the bottom of the mortgage/foreclosure crisis. Things are always a little shaky/uncertain leading into a major election. Okay, I just watched the CBS news and they reported which areas are doing well, etc., so not everyone is focusing on doom and gloom.

Okay, thanks! Sorry I didn't see that to begin with. Robin

If she loves roller coasters, then this is a no brainer. You HAVE to do Holiday World. From what I understand two or three of the top ten roller coasters in the country are at Holiday World. And what's so great about them is that they are extremely well constructed... you can just tell... they don't feel like they're going to fall apart, not even the wooden ones. The largest, fastest one (the Voyager, I think...) is not wooden but it is unbelievable. You actually become weightless during one part and float off your seat. At least I did. Sort of like astronaut training! LOL Another thing we loved about Holiday World... it wasn't an overly large park. Fewer rides but the rides were good, good quality. Sniff sniff... I wish we were going back! Have fun! Robin

I would go to holiday world. We went last summer, to both parks, and we preferred the regular park by far. But they are connected, and you can go back and forth between the two. If you buy a one day pass, you get the second day really cheap (half price or maybe even less). It was the best amusement park we'd ever been to... short lines, fantastic roller coasters, very clean, soft old fashioned background music, free sodas... the water park was okay, but we've been to better, and the water park just wasn't unique the way the amusement park was. We wanted to go again this year but money is too tight. Our good friends in Illinois go every single year. We are so sad we can't go... my dd has a picture of the Legend as her screenscaver :). Have fun! And ride the Legend for us!!

Lucinda, my responses to Beansprouts were responses to her suggestion on how to approach someone like that. I don't think one ever should. It's not a minding your own business thing as much as it is simply not a good idea. It won't likely accomplish much and it could make matters worse. To answer your original question (sorry I never really responded to you, but only to one of the responses), I think going straight to management is the best solution. They know how to handle this sort of thing and they have the authority to do so. It's never happened to me before, but if it did I would try to find a manager or security guard. Unelss there was serious physical abuse going on right in front of my eyes... I said earlier that I would intervene but maybe not... I might go for the secruity guard if I'm afraid of the abuser. A friend of mine's sister was murdered last month by a man who was fighting with his wife and my friend's sister tried to intervene and diffuse the situation. Shot and killed right on the spot. I really don't think individuals should take domestic violence cases into their own hands ever. You never know how it's going to escalate. So, it's not that I think you need to mind your own business, I just don't think that it's a good idea to confront people like this. They are the ones who will get mad at you and accuse you of sticking your nose in their business, or worse. If it's someone simply being obnoxious or acting particularly stressed out for some reason, I would ignore them. If I was concerned for someone's safety, I'd go get someone in authority. Hope that's clearer! Robin

Yes, that's not the issue with me. A discussion about how today's average lifestyle contributes to obesity (not just in children) is fine. I was criticizing the tendency (even in this thread) to make personal judgements about the kids and their parents, to the point of insult. The way people don't think twice to voice their disapproval of an overweight person for no reason other than the fact that they are overweight is just as alarming to me as the actual rise in obesity itself. Maybe even more so.

Yeah... you know, these days you worry if the other person will pull out a gun or something!

Pamela, yes there are things that can be done and we should all do them. But children losing weight is a very tricky thing. It is not always safe for them to try to lose weight at the same time they are trying to grow. We do what we can, wait for them to "grow" into their weight, and assist them as best we can. But even if our children never completely grow into their weight, there comes a point where it's just plain wrong to point fingers at people and comment on their weight. Period. I am willing to bet that some of the people doing so in this thread would probably be appalled if they were in a public place with their children, and one of their kids looked up at them and said, "Gosh, mom... look at how many fat people are here today! Isn't that alarming? (i.e. disgusting? Shameful?)"

Well, yeah... if an opportunity presented itself. I wouldn't try to create one, though (I was just going on the op's description of the situation - how she wasn't anywhere near and had to walk a distance to peep around the aisle to see what was going on).

I would have intervened in a physical assault situation like that, too. Robin

I'll take that one step further and say that to look down on a child or treat a child as a fat, lazy little piggie is downright RUDE regardless of whether or not he could do something about it. To treat someone like they are "less than" because they are not their "perfect" weight is the new discrimination. And we wonder why all these teenage girls end up anorexic/bulemic? I agree that there are different kinds of reasons being discussed in this thread why a child might be overweight, but I still see it as one societal problem... people who think it's okay to pity/discriminate against someone because of their weight. ETA: I got Night Elf confused with you, obviously. I knew there was someone who had a child with asthma who gained weight on the steroids, but I thought it was Night Elf. So I misspoke about that in my post below. Steroids because of asthma caused my dd to gain a lot of weight, too.

Oh Camy, you are so sweet.... I wasn't trying to single you out - honest! I know you would never be intentionally cruel of judgmental! I was just trying to remind everyone that a child who has a few extra pounds doesn't need anyone feeling sorry for them or getting mad at their parents! You don't have to be some ideal weight to enjoy life to the full! See, this is where those perceptions trip us up... they cause us to assume things that might not be true. A happy, engaged, well rounded child with good friends and healthy interests is just that, even if he is a few pounds overweight! I could argue that there are plenty of skinny, fit people (including children) whose lives are a mess for other reasons... I love you, Camy! I'm sorry if my post sounded like a reaction to you personally - if that were the case, I would have posted directly to you (and would have worded it more gently :)). Robin

How would you do that, really? I mean... if I was loosing my cool in public, if someone approached me AT ALL, no matter how kind or well intentioned, it would cause me further stress because of embarrassment. I really don't see how you could do anything to help except look the other way and leave her be. It sounds like if you would have approached this particular woman and told her you noticed she was having a hard time and offered to help her, she would have yelled at you to mind your own business. Some people are just like that - yelling and screaming in public at their kids, even their spouses. I think it's best to ignore them, to be honest.

P.S. Beth... for your son who has gained so much weight in the last six months, of course if you are really worried, you can talk to your Dr., but I've been told (and it's turned out true for us) that sometimes children will gain weight before a growth spurt. Some kids grow tall and skinny and then fill out, some kids grow "out" first and then "up" and will thin out after the upward growth. But you might want to check with the dr. if you're truly concerned. Good luck, Robin

I'm sorry, but this is a very condascending response. My dd was skinny minny until she developed asthma and steroids caused her to gain weight, just like Night Elf. It has been difficult to deal with, but calorie reduction triggers migraines in my dd and we have been advised by a doctor to not worry about it, to let her height grow into her weight. My dd is strugling with a negative image of herself because she is not as thin as her friends, so this is a painful reality to live with that is a lot more complicated than a flippant "quit feeding them crap and making them exercise an hour a day". I sure wish I had a nickle for every person like you who has looked at her and shook their head as though thinking "tsk tsk" or for every kid who, obviously lacking basic manners traning, looked dd in the eye and said something about her weight. To Night Elf: I understand what you're going through. What has helped us the most is cutting back a little on portion size, and tracking fat gram consumption (there are many reasons why this is the best way to go... if you keep fat gram consumption steady and limited throughout the day and don't restrict eating as long as the fat grams stay within range, it is a much easier way for a child to "diet") . You can do this in very small amounts bu it adds up over time and it will result in their maintaining their weight so that their height can catch up. Of course increasing activity helps, but that's kind of tough with an asthmatic child, isn't it? My dd is just now starting to outgrow her asthma and migraines, and we have tried numerous sports... all of them have triggered asthma and bronchitis (we just tried swimming again this year and had to drop it because chlorine is a big trigger for dd). We are trying tennis now and so far so good... so I would say just keep trying till you find something they enjoy doing for cardiovascular fitness. Also, dd is starting to grow into her weight, and she looks better every year. You can find a child's height and weight chart on line and see at what age your child would have to be for their weight to be in the normal/healthy range. That is how long you need to give this... losing weight is difficult and sometimes dangerous for children... maintaining it really is the better way to go. SEt the goal based on the chart, use a program like Sparkpeople to track fat consumption, and keep trying things for activity until you find *something* they can do without triggering an asthma attack... skate park? basetball hoop? DDR? Wii Fit? Good luck! Robin

I think that the reasons are obvious (more sedentary life style, more access to higher calorie foods), but to be completely honest with everyone in this thread, I think that sitting around making negative observations about others just for the sake of conversation is rude. I really do. Don't think for a minute that your kids won't pick up on this attitude and walk up to another kid and say something straight to his face about being fat. Do you really want to teach your kids to observe and think and talk about people in this manner? I say take care of your own kids and don't worry about anyone else's, and try to teach your kids to not make judgements based on appearance. JMO, of course.

I agree with that for sure. I think maybe I didn't do a good job of saying what I was trying to say... what I meant was that he might not care about an apology for your tone or for intervening...that an apology for calling him an abuser is the *only* apology he might be interested in. In other words, you can say you're sorry for calling him that, without necessarily having to apologize for your tone or for saying anything else. In other words, don't apologize for not condoning that form of discipline or for asking him to not force your witness, or for having your point of view... just for going a little too far by calling him an abuser. Anyhoo... I knew you had expressed your regret for your tone, etc.... I just thought maybe an apology for the "abuser" comment *alone* would satisfy him. Good luck, Colleen. I hope you have a peaceful resolution to this. Robin

I wouldn't report it to CPS, to be honest. This is a fellow church member and I think that first Colleen should address this through her pastor. I think it would be a huge offense to her pastor and the rest of her members if she called the law on a fellow, respected member of the church because of spanking. If it is indeed illegal in her state, I think that the pastor should be the one to decide how the church membership should handle this. Or he should at least have the chance to give his input first, and given the opportunity to resolve this privately.

Additionally, Colleen, consider the fact that you talked to him that way and called him an abuser in front of the child. Think about how you'd feel if someone were to criticize the way you discipline your children in FRONT of your children, WHILE you were disciplining them. I'm not saying the man is right, you understand...

I like ketchup on scrambled eggs, and for anything battered and fried (chicken fried steak or chicken, fried fish). I put it on meatloaf before baking. I don't put it on hot dogs. I have a friend who puts ketchup on baked potatoes, and my dd likes to dip potato chips in ketchup (I guess both of those taste like french fries w/ ketchup). I mix it with horseradish and worsteshire (sp!) sauce and lemon juice for a good seafood sauce. I also use it as a base for homemade bbq sauce. We eat a lot of ketchup around here! LOL

Colleen, is it possible that maybe the whipping sounded worse than what it really was? I am not for that sort of discipline at all... just so you know... but since you seem to be genuinely trying to see this from his pov, I would wonder about that. Most kids who know that they are going to be spanked will be upset. And with some kids, even if the spanking is not very harsh at all, the child will melt down and scream as though they were being ripped apart limb by limb. Had the child been the quiet instead of screamed, would you have reacted the same way? I'm sure the whacks were very upsetting to you, but you need to judge them on their own, imo. There have been times that my dd has carried on, screaming and crying, that surely people around me thought I was ripping her fingernails out one by one when I wasn't even laying a hand on her. She has always been that way, even as an infant... when she is upset, her cries are ear piercing screams. I think that since you otherwise respect this man, and obviously there is a need to put this behind you, I would recommend asking him if you could speak with him about this in front of the pastor. Tell him that in hindsight, you realize that that's what you should have done from the beginning... ask for a meeting with him in front of the pastor to discuss your concern about this behavior on church property. My prediction is that in the end, you will be told that spanking is not abuse and not anyone's business other than the parents, and you will be led to apologize to him for calling him an abuser. And hopefully he will be told that spanking should never be meted out in a way that can be heard or witnessed by anyone or that disturbs the peace in any way. I would just try to make sure that both him and the pastor understand that as much as it is his right to discipline his children as he sees fit, that people like you are upset by it and would really appreciate it if they kept their private disciplinary actions exactly that... private. Now that I think about it, I would ask the friend you were sitting with to attend the meeting to back up your story about how disturbing the whole scene was. The other option would be just to talk to the pastor yourself and ask his advice/response. I think the man is looking for an apology for the "abuser" comment, to be honest. HTH and good luck... it would have upset me, too. Robin

:lol: Actually, I never got past the requirement to be wearing, and using, a beer drinking hat. :o)