Oh my goodness! I just came online to post that it was one of the most fascinating, artful opening ceremonies I'd ever seen! It was absolutely gorgeous - tasteful, elegant... I loved it. Would watch it again if it came on!! Heard absolutely no booing for the US team. As a matter of fact, I remember being surprised at how loud they cheered.

This is what we've studied so far: We completed LitCT Level 1. We covered: first conjugation and principal parts of verbs; indicative and imperative mood; first, second and third declension nouns; ablative, accusative and dative case usage (introduced vocative); conjugation of sum; conjunctions, prepositions, appositives, adjectives, adverbs. We did very well with some of the material (went pretty deep), but a lot of it was thin treatment. I think we need reinforcement before moving on. Thank you all so much for the responses... it sounds like we've had enough latin grammar to start with LL. We can add Henle or maybe even Wheelocks later if it doesn't go well. Does that sound like a good plan? Thanks again! Robin

I'm still thinking about using LL as a supplement reader to Henle, but I see that Potter's School Latin uses only LL. So that got me thinking, "Why not?" So, why not use just LL? Is there something lacking in the program that causes you to use it only as a reading supplement? I've searched the forums for conversations about LL as a stand alone text but nothing came up. Like I said, I'm leaning towards Henle/LL, but I'm also feeling a little overwhelmed by the prospect of spending that much time and effort on Latin. I think I might prefer a systematic, planned, pick up and go, don't worry about figuring out what to do next approach. Thanks for any input, Robin

I can't imagine getting as much out of the workbook without the DVDs, either. Some say it's doable, but I think those are the type people who don't need the program to start with :). FWIW, just to clarify, it's not an IEW product... IEW just happens to carry it. Andrews has some book specific courses available now, too... I'm thinking about one of them for the upcoming year with my 13yo.

Colleen, I hope you get the encouragement and find the "balance" you need... I know that any comment from me will ring hollow since I have absolutely no expertise dealing with multiple aged children, so I won't even pretend to act like I understand what you are facing... I can only express my hope that you find a comfortable, peaceful solution. Best wishes to you! Robin

Okay, yes... I definitely misunderstood. I read your initial post, in which you said you didn't study latin and asked how does one stay a step ahead of their older students; and you mentioned that you'd prefer not to turn it all over to independent study (which I took to mean that you want to stay involved)... and you wondered about how realistic it is to self educate and refamiliarize with these advanced subjects... So yeah, I kinda thought you meant that you want to be involved, but that you felt overwhelmed by the prospect of staying one step ahead and self educating, etc.... I would consider any effort to stay a step ahead part of the planning process. But now it sounds like your concern is you feel pulled in so many other directions, that you feel a little out of tune to what he's studying (paraphrasing your words here). So am I understanding you correctly that what you are really inquiring about is how to devote the time necessary to have that sort of involvement with your oldest and juggle that with your other responsibilties and the needs of the younger children? I wish I could help you with that, of course it is not something I have experience with, though. Good luck with finding your balance. I don't know how practical this advice is, but the one thing I hear repeatedly about this topic is the advice to always teach to the oldest child and fold everything else in around that, and that the benefits of putting your priority and efforts on the oldest will trickle down both directly and indirectly. Good luck, Colleen! Robin

Colleen, I hope this doesn't turn out to be another discouraging post. I just want to tell you what an online course did for us last year. We took one for Latin. First, I can assure you that there is more than ample opportunity to stay on top of what your son is learning with online/long distance classes. They can't possibly cover everything in the short hour or two that they meet. I found that I had to be almost just as involved as if I were teaching, except for not having to prepare the lessons. I found it easier to learn along side dd and stay up with what she was doing because I was a sideline cheerleader instead of the coach with the game plan. Lifting that responsibility made a much larger difference than what I anticipated. I actually was lukewarm about the class in the end, but several things made the class very worthwhile - 1) I didn't have to be the expert on top of the material who kept at least a step ahead, 2) I still had to be involved enough to actually know what was going on and where the rough spots were and I did manage to learn alongside, 3) I didn't have to argue with dd about what to do when because she performed more willingly for the course instructor (sigh...), 4) Latin got done, 5) the time it freed up paid back in spades re: mental energy to plan and teach the remaining courses, 6) it kept us accountable and on tract, 7) I didn't have to depend on my own motivation all the time, 8) Latin got done :), 9) in spite of its weaknesses, dd actually enjoyed the class and it became her favorite subject, 10) and did I mention? Latin got done. I know you aren't asking whether or not you want to do online classes, but when you do get to that point (say in a year or so), I just wanted you to know that with online classes it is a LOT easier to keep up with what your student is learning because that's all you have to do... keep up with it. Not stay ahead of it or plan it. Since keeping up with your son's studies was an element of your original question, I wantd to encourage you that you will not experience detachment from your son's studies if he is in a weekly online class. You will still need (or want) to facilitate what he learns and how he navigates through the course, and the only thing you'll be missing out on is the planning and preparation and assignment giving. It does make it easier to facilitate, in my experience, because not as much energy has been sucked out and you will be responding together to someone else's lesson plan. You will still oversee things and keep up with the material much more easily. Hope that makes sense, and that it helps if and when you get to the point that you have to do something.... Good luck with keeping it simple this year, though. No words of advice because I'm outsourcing some things as well (more for social reasons, to be honest). Robin

Okay, I gotcha... especially on the whole language thing. Maybe what I'm referring to is more the "natural" approach as opposed to whole language. I think that what you are talking about is very doable in the early years, but not as easy to do when they get older. As a matter of fact, I think that TWTM pretty much lays out this approach for the ealry years but people do want programs for ease of use so one was developed. My daughter is 13, and the idea of covering everything she is learning from R&S Grammar via our literature readings is quite daunting. You know, sometimes you just *need* 10 or so exercises in one sitting to grasp a difficult concept. And then a few more the next day for review, and the day after that. :) Have you looked at Classical Writing? I think it might fit what you describe more closely. Each week you have a writing sample (a fable or short story). You work on words within the sample for spelling, you work on grammar concepts using sentences from the sample for your exercises, etc. You'll still need a grammar handbook, but it does integrate more than any other program I've seen. P.S. We attended a strings camp last week and dd was first violion in a chamber quarter that performed Tchaikovsky's Scherzo. They were handed the music on Monday afternoon and performed it Friday. Monday afternoon she was freaking out because she was having trouble reading the music - I had to get a faculty member to help her. But by Friday the group decided to perform it by memory - no music in front of them. It was wonderful, everyone was impressed, and I was really proud of her... but guess what? She forgot to vibrato. Throughout the whole piece. She said she got nervous and dizzy and just forgot. She looked and sounded like a bit of a robot but boy howdy, she had it memorized! LOL ETA: Lest I give a false impression, it was just the first half of the Scherzo, not the whole thing... they're not *that* good! LOL

I'm confused... are you saying that there are DVD lectures by Mosely that are marketed by the textbook publisher, ones that Mr. Mosely doesn't market through his company (Chalkdust)? Are these better than the chalkdust courses?

Yes, we take suzuki... and actually the lack of musicality is the most common complaint about the suzuki method. They learn technique and intonation but then for some reason fail to cross over from student to artist. I was just discussing this with another parent this morning. Suzuki really focuses on ear training and a very specific incremental development of technical skills, to the point you don't even realize you're doing so. It's almost like Saxon for violin! LOL Having majored in violin, though, I'm sure you'd agree that etudes and scales were a real pain but a necessary one :). That's the point I was trying to make - you don't ever quit keeping those skills fresh as a young student... I think that there are two schools of thought abuot teaching language use to children, as well, and one of them is the whole language approach that you are discussing, where it is all integrated and you don't really ever have an isolated "grammar" lesson... it's all in context of something else (an excerpt from a novel, etc.)... the main point of WTM, though, is that there is both an art and a skill to using language, and that the skills are best taught incrementally through a well organized, thorough direct program... while the art is part talent, part practice, and part a mastery of the skills. That's why SWB says don't stop grammar, don't stop vocabulary, etc. You will learn about these things in other subjects, yes, but don't quit honing and refreshing the skills in general. Good luck!

Like I said in my other post, everything you are talking about is application. Your child has learned through direct instruction how to spell short words like cat, and so when you do dictation and he misspells cat, you refer him to a spelling rule that he's already learned elsewhere. Spelling and grammar are skills that are built incrementally... it would take a tremendous amount of effort and planning on your part to make sure that in your history and science and literature lessons, opportunity was created to teach every single thing your student needs to know about how to use the english lanauge, and to do so in a way that the lessons build upon each other. That is the whole point of TWTM - use good textbooks/programs for skills - just not for content. The point of dictation is not to teach them to spell and punctuate, per say, but to develop good habits using the spelling and punctuation skills they've been taught. If you make the composition assignment about teaching grammar and spelling, then their mind isn't going to be free to properly contemplate and organize the content of their paper. That may be hard to imagine when your children are young, but you will notice a difference when your kid gets older. My daughter plays the violin. Every day she has to practice technique, scales, etudes, bowing techniques, etc. Then she gets to play beautiful music. There is a lot going on with the sheet music - musicality (loud here, soft there), difficult rhythyms, notes and chords that are difficult to play. That is not the time to be thinking about how to properly hold the bow, or keep it straight, or how to playing the notes in tune and shift properly. Those are all skills that have to be taught and practiced in isolation in order to master them when she is playing music. And that *is* when she masters them... when she is applying them to real music. But just like spelling and punctuation and proper usage, these things need direct instruction and regular practice to become second nature, allowing the student to focus on content when they apply those skills. I believe in integration as much as possible, too, but as far as your question about why these subjects are drilled separately for years, the answer is that regular drill and review is what builds skills and makes them second nature to the student. In all seriousness, do you think you could teach all the content of Rod and Staff grammar through 8th grade just by picking apart sentences as you encounter them in your reading and writing? I mean, if you can then more power to you! There is no way *I* could begin to organize all that information and cover it so systematically and throughly on my own (which is, perhaps, only a commentary on me and my lack of skills! LOL). Another example is vocabulary... do you want to teach them what words mean as they encounter them (teaching them one word at a time), or do you want to teach them with a good roots based vocabulary program the fundamental roots of our language and how to recognize roots within larger words and dissect the prefixes and suffixes to arrive at meaning (a skill they can use to decipher thousands of words)? There are programs out there that teach language arts through literature, but one of the biggest criticisms of them is that they are non-systematic and weak. If you really want your child to go on to study logic and rhetoric, they are going to have to learn all the fundamentals of english and learn them well. Rare will be the child who has done so without consistent hard work, year in and year out, with direction instruction. Just my opinion, of course, but I'm pretty sure I'm right about this :) Robin

I agree with Michelle. When you're talking about skill development, it deserves separate treatment. Spelling, grammar, etc. Compositions in other subjects is *applied* language arts. That's where you apply what you're learning in those skill subjects. I am not one of those who believes that writing a report in one of the content subjects is the best time to learn the skills. You should come to that assignment with a toolbox in place that was acquired through direct instruction. That is when you practice your skill. And that is when the content of the paper might weigh more heavily on the grade than technical accuracy, but technical accuracy/skill needs to be polished in order to concentrate on the content. There are two things going on there... skill and content... I think skill needs to be taught directly (as its own subject) and applied/practiced in content assignments. SWB says her mother made her complete a grammar text. Every. Single. Year. Through high school. She has convinced me that this is the way to go :). Robin

It was literally right down the highway from where I live, but I was out of town. I would have loved to have heard Martin Cothran. I'm sure everyone who went had a marvelous time - would love to hear about how it went, and about what you learned. Robn

Lisa, my dd is 13 and is really going to be doing 8th grade next year, although I'm only calling her "7th" (she just turned 13 - I chose to hold her back grade-wise a long time ago due to summer birthday). I was hoping to have the equivalent of Wheelocks done by the time she started 9th grade so that she could switch to either French or Spanish at that time. It looks like I might have to postpone that to10th grade if we start all over again with Henle. She might continue with latin reading in high school, but I'd like to have all the grammar out of the way by then. If she wants to pursue advanced latin reading, that would be fine but I won't require it. We're taking on a lot this year and I'm not 100% sure I want to spend a full hour a day on latin. Maybe the LL readings can be done in the evenings or while in the car, so that they dont feel like part of the school day.

Hey, if you have anything I can use, I'll take you up on it - I'll be using a lot of your books this year!! But you don't have the units 1-7 syllabus, right? I'll need to buy that one for sure. It is so humid right now I want to board up and go to Colorado for a month!! I would settle for just a couple of hundred miles north :). Robin

You may be right... I'm going completely off the cuff here, thinking that I heard this somewhere. I expect you know more about it than me. That does make me feel better and a little less pressured, although I really do want to cover the full first year and not dilly dally around, since we've already covered quite a bit successfully. On the other hand, wouldn't you have to have covered through Unit 5 by the time you actually take the test in March? If so, wouldn't that be similar to a sequence that completes through unit 7 by the end of the year? I'm so confused... it seems that "Latin 1" means a lot of different things depending on which program you're talking about. I want to fold in an immersion reading program, too, like LL... it sounds fun! I'm worried about time, though... Thanks for the tip about the other stuff, too... why can't one program do it all? All the grammar? All the comprehensive exercises? All the interesting reading? All the culture/history stuff? Ugh... I'm exhausted already, thinking about coordinating all this stuff... and this is only Latin - I've got other subjects to think about!! Thanks for info...

I'm probably mistaken - I'm the one with a fried brain after a week at strings camp :). I thought IB was what MODG called their syllabus for the second half of Book I. (That they called the syllabus for units 1-7 IA and the one for the remaining units IB). Thanks for the tip about the previous NLE tests (you've told me about that before but I forgot!)... I do think that material in units 6 and 7 are on the level 1 test - that's why I'm not so sure about doing the MP guides condensed into one year because they only go through unit 5. You have workmen already? You poor thing... I'll get you're looking forward to having your home complete and to yourself!!

You are so sweet :). You know, I'm thinking we need to go the MODG way only because I don't want to feel like we're completely repeating Latin I. I like the idea of accelerated review, but R made a very high A in the LitCT online course and I think she needs to be introduced to a little new material this year. So you finished the IB syllabus in a year, no problem? Robin

Okay, maybe I need the answer to this question first: How much of Henle I do you need to complete to sit for the NLE Level I exam? I was thinking you need to complete through Unit VII. My daughter has had Latin I through LitCT, but I understand you need to do the first few chapters of Level II of this program to complete a true first year latin course and sit for the level I NLE. That is our objective this year - sit for the Latin I exam. Does that narrow our choices? Thanks for all the helpful feedback! Robin

Thanks, Carolyn. I don't suppose you recall what those daily assignments looked like (how they were structured/what sort of detail)? I've asked on the high school board... someone there might answer soon. Thanks again! Robin

I want to go a little faster than what the MP guide provides for, but I really like MP's features re: specific breakdown of what to do every single day. Does MODG's syllabus give that much detail? Or is the schedule more of an overview? Any other differences between the two guides? Sorry to be a pest about this... there are no sample pages of MODG's syllabus online (that I can find) and it has a "no returns" policy. Kinda scared to purchase it since it's pretty expensive. Thanks, Robin

Thanks, Michelle! Yes, I was aware of the I-II vs. I-VII difference, but I wasn't sure what else was different about them. I would like to know if MODG gives you a day to day specific breakdown the way MP does... I would benefit from that quite a bit, but I'd like to move faster than what MP provides. If I don't get an answer by next week, I'll contact you and ask you to look at it for me. Thanks again for the offer! Robin

I know how they compare pace-wide - I know that MODG covers more in the first year... The MP online sample looks like a simple "read these two pages, do this set of exercises, do some oral drill (undefined)." I can't find a sample page of the MODG guide. Can someone who has seen both tell me how these two guides differ in content? Or are they similar? I think I prefer the pace of the MODG guide because dd has already taken LItCT Level 1, and we'll need to move fast through the first few units of Henle. But I don't like buying something sight unseen, especially when it has a "no returns" policy! Thanks for any input Robin

Not necessarily a "eureka" moment, but I like the Vocabulary for Achievement series a little better than Vocab from Classical Roots. Might be worth a look. Same publisher as Write Source materials. Haven't started it yet, but I'm looking forward to the Sentence Composing series which is often recommended by the gurus here on the high school board. Of course, a lot of folks here like the Lial's math series, but my daughter is looking forward to Chalkdust. The guy is funny and extremely clear and concise. Enough to make me overlook the fact it's a DVD course. New conversation that's intrigued me - seeing more mention of summer camps at colleges... real academic ones, not babysitting ones... for example Hillsdale apparently has a travel/study program for juniors and seniors and the cost includes college credit - how interesting! How many colleges do this sort of thing? That would be a great topic to research and comment on - what flexibility and variety there is for the high school student, but it's like you have to stumble on this information accidentally... no resource available except maybe google. Robin

Thanks, Beth! While that would be a large expense in our home, it sounds like a good value especially since it inclues the college credit. Not a bad deal at all. Thanks for posting about this (and thanks to Margaret for originally posting it)! Robin