What are Orthodox Jewish worship services like? Is there singing, or chanting? What does it sound like? Are the readings done in plain voice or chant? Are there instruments? Is there incense? Is it the same today than 1,000 or 2,000 or more years ago, or has it changed? Is there a calendar of readings? Are there a variety of services through the year, like a calendar of service? Is there anything like holy bread or holy wine incorporated into the service? How long are the services? Do children attend with parents? Is standing the typical prayer position? Is there a message or sermon? I would love to see and hear a worship service.

So sorry. {{Lord have mercy}}

Yes. The shunning, perceived by some - obvious by others, is the ongoing thing.

No, not really.

I do have a wonderful priest. He knows all the painful things and he even went through them with us and counseled us along the way. At the time I thought it was just a painful situation we were going through at their hands. He has helped a lot. I think I'm experiencing a new layer of the onion being peeled away. I'm not sure how to involve my priest, but I'll consider that.

I know I said I wanted book recommendations, but after reading the book descriptions I'm feeling jittery and untrusting toward these authors. I have a probably illogical feeling that they want to control me and pressure me to think like them. I didn't expect this reaction to reading book descriptions. So, I'm altering my request. I don't want to tackle this by reading a book. Talking/typing it out, sharing, caring, etc. is more comfortable to me. Please excuse my waffling.

I'm looking for input from folks who have had extensive experience and participation in a church which welcomed, encouraged, or pressured/pushed cult-like influences in their programming or para-church activities, lifestyles, book choices & studies, group-think conferences, counseling techniques, etc. Having left a situation like this just over 2 years ago, I'm becoming more clear of mind that the programs and influences which were welcomed and used in this church had undue influence on me. Though I'm not ready to call these influences cults, they are cult-like and the after effects feel similar to leaving a cult. They employ the same techniques that real cults use to establish and solidify group-think. A good deal of my childhood and teenage years were spent in a cult and when I left it felt similar to how I've felt over the last two years. Somehow though this feels harder and a more damaging experience to heal from. I have many friends in this environment. Some have delved into these influences, as I did, and have integrated the cult-like teachings into their homes. Some are less likely to take these influences to heart. The tricky thing for me and the thing that makes this really hard to work through is that it's not "a cult" cut and dry. All the influences that I find now to be cult-like were "optional" to church member participation. The unspoken group-think is almost universal in the church, but it's not something black and white that you can say, "ah-ha, that's unbiblical!" Where I'm at now is in a stage of healing and sorting these things out. I am banished and shunned by many from that church, but not all. I don't get invited much to social activities from those who didn't shun me. The social invites I send out are often ignored by them or declined, but not so obviously that I can say with confidence, "they have shunned me." It's so darn slippery and tricky and subtle that I have had a difficult 2 years trying to find a new normal. I'm hopeful that this next school year will lead me and our whole family to more normalcy. I'm anticipating involvement in a new co-op, secular, so that it will be safer feeling for me. I'm looking forward to making new friends for the kids and I. So, things are looking up. If there are resources for dealing with exits from cult-like situations or a blog or something written by someone dealing with an exit from a regular church where the shunning and group think mentality was so cunning and tricky you can't even put your finger on it, please advise. Or if it's ok with the moderators, we can exchange and chit chat about experiences here on TWTMF, if anyone else finds themselves in a similar place. There's a lot to my personal story that I may share if it seems appropriate as to why I'm in a healing stage, but for now I will just see if anyone else has had a similar experience and if this conversation / thread goes anywhere. BTW - I have no desire to shame or bash or gossip about my former church. My experience with everyone before I started questioning the beliefs was positive and everyone is no doubt sincere in following these teachers, who seem cult-like to me. I don't think any of my former congregants, well most, have a mean bone in their bodies. There were many hurtful things that happened to us, but I want to make it clear that I don't think it was done, for the most part of them, on purpose. I fault these controlling influences more than anything and the idealism that somehow replaced common courtesy.

Your post/s are loaded with comments, questions and concerns. I can only participate here a bit. So, I wanted to address the Scripture and Bereans concern. Let's look at the whole passage and think about all that's going on here. Notice that the Bereans are praised for their: readiness of mind, hearing the word orally delivered to them, searching the OT Scriptures, and believing. They are praised as fair minded while those in Thessalonica were not praised because they caused a stir which cut off Paul from teaching. The brothers had to send Paul away because if them. See? They are not praised for *only* searching the Scriptures. They are praised for fair mindedness, hearing the oral word, searching the OT Scriptures, and believing. 11 These were more fair-minded than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness, and searched the Scriptures daily to find out whether these things were so. 12 Therefore many of them believed, and also not a few of the Greeks, prominent women as well as men. 13 But when the Jews from Thessalonica learned that the word of God was preached by Paul at Berea, they came there also and stirred up the crowds. 14 Then immediately the brethren sent Paul away, to go to the sea; but both Silas and Timothy remained there." If we do likewise, it would be a good and fair minded approach: readiness of mind, hearing the word, searching the Scriptures, and believing.

Following and joining the convo.

I've been following this thread for days, but only able to read here and there and I finally got through the whole thing! [Yay for me! pat, pat, on the back.] I've been thinking about this thread too and how to respond. A few posts popped out to me, but first maybe I should give a little intro/story. I am a post-evangelical Christian who called myself post-evangelical for a while, not knowing what else to call myself, and eventually converted to Orthodox Christianity. I'm a fairly new convert, so I can't give any vast information or understanding, just my own personal experience. The disillusionment I experienced in the evangelical Christian world came from both the outside (other Christians, teachers) and the inside (myself.) Regarding the outer disillusionment, I was extremely disillusioned with the lack of a consistent message and cohesive practice that made a difference in the life of the Christian. For example, some Christians in my sphere of influence taught that we were either chosen or not chosen and there's nothing we can do about it. Yet, other people in my sphere, in my own church even, believed there were some things that you could do, such as "have faith." Everyone agreed that there were no works you could do, and yet the Bible I used to read (at this time of disillusionment I didn't read it anymore because of the inconsistent message I was getting) certainly does talk about works playing a role in salvation. So, I'm getting one message from these teachers over here, another message from these guys over there, and a whole different message from the words of Jesus and the Bible. Yeah, frustrating after so many years. At the time I was a solid member of the same church for 10 or 11 years, yet the message was utterly confusing for me. There were other outside frustrations as well. For example the fads and trends that came and went: Bill Gothard, Growing Kids God's Way, The Pearls, The Quiverfull movement, by the time I was utterly disillusioned it was more "hip" and "modern" speakers like Francis Chan, and several others that I can't remember right now. After so many years of this, including the lady's Bible studies which I attended, the messages were so kerbobbled in my mind that I just didn't want to have anything to do with books, studies, programs, or the Bible. I had spent the last 3 years nursing and holding my 4th child because he did not want to be let down for a minute. So, I didn't really attend church for about 3 years, since I was rocking him and holding him the whole time. At this time I posted here on the General Board a plea for help. I started a thread that went epic, like this one. I put in the subject line something like, "Help, I think I'm a post-evangelical. Now what do I do?" I got lots and lots of advice. LOL. Some advice was like, "you better read the Bible or Satan's gonna get ya!" To those posts I just rolled my eyes, let out a big sigh, and said to myself, "move on." But, then there were the thoughtful and what seemed to me to be deep responses from the Orthodox Christians. I was like, "what the heck is that?" So, I looked up Ancient Faith Radio on our Christmas road trip from Seattle to Anaheim on our way down to Disneyland. I remember thinking, "what if the Orthodox Christians don't like Disneyland?" (Thinking about that now I just ROTFL, my priest's daughter worked there, and they are a Disney loving family.) Anywhoo, I listened to this podcast on the Orthodox view of the Solas. The first one was about Sola Scriptura. I was so shocked I threw the headphones off my head and tossed them onto the van dashboard. My husband was like, "what the HECK are you listening to?" I was like, "you do NOT want to know!" He was like, "Um, yeah, I really do want to know! Tell me now!" I was like, "I warned you!" So, I turned the podcast to the beginning and I put it on the regular speakers for my husband to hear and all of our kids. His response was, "That's what I've been saying for years!!! Remember when I said blah blah blah." I was like, "Yeah I remember. I guess you were right." This podcast was basically a history in how we got the Bible and it's intended use and the reasons why Orthodox Christians do not claim to be Sola Scriptura. So, all that to be said, I was hooked and my husband was hooked. Lots and lots of rocky times and events took place in our life, really tough, like the toughest in our lives since we were married, and a year and a half later (thereabouts) we were baptized as Orthodox Christians. What should I say now then? Well, I have had to pretty much toss out most of what I was trying to understand as an evangelical Christian, and start over. Up thread someone stated that the creeds are all the same. Yes, the creed is the creed and it means the same whether you read it in an Orthodox Church or a Protestant church, but how it's lived and the understanding of that creed is really different, at least from the type of Christianity I was practicing as an evangelical Christian. The meaning of salvation is different, the reason for salvation is different, the way to salvation is different, what salvation looks like in a Christian is different, what happens after we die is different, and on and on and on. I can't really state all the differences in this one thread. They would have to be explained question by question and even then it's layer by layer and bridging the communication barrier is really tough in this situation because we read the same Bible and we recite the same creed, but it really is different. The words of Jesus and the actions of Jesus had always reined supreme in my mind and soul for my whole life, even as a child, and Orthodox Christianity is the example where I found them to make the most sense and be practiced the way I understood from my early childhood readings. Slowly, all my "what about" questions were made clearer, yet I see Christianity as a life long journey toward more clarity, peace, grounded-ness, solid-ness, centered-ness, illumination, positivity, communion and union with God and the rest of the world, etc. etc. But I'm only a couple of years in. Keep that in mind, this is my personal experience, I'm not trying to convey any theology or anything. Contessa, you have been given lots of advice, so I want to keep pretty quiet on that end. I'll just say a little bit on some observations I had while reading your posts and everyone else's. I noticed that up thread you said that you like Jesus. You don't think Jesus is the problem, but Christians are a problem, the Bible, specifically the Old Testament, and the logic of it all. So, I wanted to muse about these things a bit. I wonder if you could *erase* all your ideas about "God" and "Christianity" and replace them with just the person of Jesus. I wonder what you would feel like then. Would you feel like moving toward *that* Jesus? Would you feel at all like knowing that Jesus, getting to know him, or nurturing a relationship with him? Is that Jesus worthy of worship, praise, adoration, etc.? I mean to say the Jesus you get when you just look at Jesus as he is described in the stories of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, and erase everything else. When I thought of myself as a post-evangelical that is kind of where I was at. I was like, "I can't deny Jesus." He is what I want and what I think this whole Christianity thing should look like. So, I just kind of sat with that for a while inside myself. Like I said earlier, part of my disillusionment was within myself. I felt like I couldn't pray, I couldn't interpret the Bible, I didn't know what being a Christian should look like in my life, and I didn't feel really any closer to Jesus than I did when I first became a Christian as a child. I was disillusioned with my lack of growth? maybe it's called? Anywhoo, my mind was all a kerbobble and I felt like my spirit was just no-where spiritual. But, I still couldn't deny Jesus and Jesus is what I held onto. So, I hope this message finds you well, and I hope I'm not too late to the conversation. I enjoyed everyone's responses, even the strange messages that were purporting to be "Christian." They were enjoyable in their own way. Hugs to you. Keep in touch with your journey. (disclaimer - I'm not proofing this - I have to get to a hair appointment. Yay, I get to have my hair done tonight!!!)

Can you think in terms of positive and negative? Cussing = negative, self serving at the expense of others = negative, thinking the best in others = positive, serving others = positive, etc. Analyzing fairy tales and classic stories is a good source for moral teaching, and asking the question, "should he/she have done it." See Circe Institute for audio on teaching moral truth. Maybe start with the basics, "peace."

Aviation High School will end our homeschooling on a high note with our oldest if she is accepted. :D. We will know by mid April.

I think I might spike a Super Big Gulp Diet Coke with rum and bring it along.

I'm offended! There was no mention of an Orthodox version with icons, sold separately. *humph*

dp

May her memory be eternal.

My dad had cancer when I was a kid. He chose to treat it with a natural method called The Gerson Therapy. It was a very strict diet, vegan, juicing every hour, shots, liver juice, etc. etc. he prolonged his life 9 years past his prognosis. He couldn't take the diet anymore and he went back to an average diet. He eventually died in his 40's. Anyway, all that to say, I believe the Gerson Therapy helped him tremendously. Us kids were expected to follow it. We ate what dad ate. In hindsight I don't think they had to be so strict on us kids. I think it would have been nice if my step mom would have taken us kids out to eat once in a while. But the idea they kept pounding into us kids was that we didn't want to make my dad feel bad, which we didn't, so we obeyed, but it was really hard. I think you all will find your way. Just love each other and do the best you can in an organic way. ((Hugs))

This just came up on my FB wall; seems appropriate here. "We must love them both, those whose opinions we share and those whose opinions we reject, for both have labored in the search for truth, and both have helped us in finding it." Thomas Aquinas

Huh? "God so loved the world that he *gave* his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life."

Her motives being questioned and scorned in the starting and throughout this thread, her separation in school by being singled out and sent to the principle to prove her presentation's appropriateness, and her reproach from the teacher. This treatment is worthy of the blessings she is awarded in the Kingdom.

I was Googling John 3:16 and "Greek" and I found this article which breaks down the verse in the Greek. Wow! For Christians, the Greek is very illuminating! https://www.christiancourier.com/articles/483-the-golden-text-a-study-of-john-3-16

I quoted the whole verse, it says what happens to whoever believes in Him. It doesn't address others.

If I could speak to the little girl I would say, "This is what Jesus says to you, 'Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake. Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.'"

John 3:16 doesn't say anything about non-Christians. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."

Wow! This is so helpful. Thank you. I think we are in good shape in some areas the three RRR's but should implement the organization management, and the lab science. We are doing a rigorous study of astronomy in the input sense, but I think output can be beefed up. Her study of Algebra is solid, but we could beef it up with more difficult problem solving. Thank you for the specific resources and the links too. I will read those.