This type of thinking is present in Orthodox teaching. The Fathers talk about the necessity of the healing of the whole person. There are practices in Orthodox Christianity that help one to move toward emotional health, and this is encouraged by priests and taught by them as well on an individual basis during confession, which often includes counseling. Total wholeness and unity/communion with God, often called becoming completely human, is what the journey is about. In Orthodox Christianity it is not expected that one just use "will power" to choose good behavior. The path to good behavior necessitates the healing of the person, little by little God and man working it out together. This is a journey and takes a lifetime. We don't believe that once a person makes a confession of faith and gets baptized and becomes a Christian that they are suddenly "good," - forgiven? Yes. Cleansed? Yes. Given life? Yes. But good?...not quite. Goodness takes a lifetime of work and healing, which includes the graces and working of God in us.

No, but it looks good. I'm reading the free ebook sample if this now, to see if I want to buy it. http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B008SHIDT2/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1376359390&sr=8-1&pi=SL75

Have you seen this? http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0801027306/ref=redir_mdp_mobile?camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0801027306&linkCode=as2&redirect=true&ref_=as_li_qf_sp_asin_tl&tag=inspirandinca-20

I haven't found any great answers yet to these disturbing and puzzling Old Testament passages. I think I will read the book I linked above. I have a feeling it will open up a whole new understanding of the Old Testament for me, which I admit I haven't studied much. These apologetics are disturbing to me too as an Orthodox Christian. I don't think I'll be reading any of those recommendations if the explanations in them are on par with what I read above. What I know of Jesus doesn't jive with most of those explanations, and He came to reveal God to us: Immanuel - God with us. If I want to know what God is like and how He relates to me, I look to Jesus. If it doesn't jive, then there's got to be something more. If I never understand the Old Testament, that's OK. I can understand and relate to Jesus. And no, I don't understand or comprehend the whole story about God taking out the wrath He has for mankind on Jesus. I don't think that's what the cross means. But, I'm still trying to understand it. Clearly I live this life and walk this Christian journey without all the answers. Mercy.

My Godmother recommended this book for an Orthodox Christian understanding of the Old Testament. I might just include this in our homeschooling next year. :D http://store.ancientfaith.com/products/The-Christian-Old-Testament.html Here it is for Kindle: http://www.amazon.com/The-Christian-Old-Testament-ebook/dp/B008SHIDT2/ref=tmm_kin_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&sr=1-2&qid=1376332800

Maybe you are right. However, I only scarcely have time to learn what the Fathers have to say at this point in my life, dig in to the participation of the Church calendar and let the graces of God work through these actions. I can't see it as a pursuit that would be helpful to me at this juncture. But, I can see your point that it could be.

I forgive. :D

Don't worry, I don't feel badgered, and I don't want to argue either - so, I'll say no more to you on this matter after this too. Just to be clear where I'm coming from, I don't "look for" a way to spin something. In have chosen my communion based on my belief in Jesus Christ as the Incarnate Son of the Eternal Father and the Holy Spirit. The Orthodox communion had the history and Truth that resonates with me the most of all the Christian communions. Since I have entered this communion my view of the Scriptures is through this lens. It's not a way to spin the Scriptures, it's how we understand the Scriptures, through the accumulated wisdom of the Fathers through the ages who were led by the Holy Spirit. So, if I don't take the words as written in plain meaning its because I don't believe that's how they are meant to be read, exclusively. Sometimes Scriptures have layers of meaning, such as historical and Spiritual. But, it's always the Spiritual lesson that's more desirable. We can find the Spiritual meaning through reading the Fathers and recognizing the particular use of the Scripture in the Church calendar readings and in the hymns of the church, not to mention the guidance of a priest. All these things work in cooperation to understand the Scriptures. Because I'm puzzled by a particular Scripture doesn't mean that it has to puzzle forever either. I don't despair like I used to as an evangelical. The massive amount of teaching available to us Orthodox Christians always leaves me with hope that someday I'll run across a teaching that will explain the puzzling passage or idea. It's a journey and I just move along organically. But spin it is not. It is a legitimate way to understand the Scriptures, through an ancient tradition.

I have no desire to spin, but I am curious what the Fathers say about Deut 28, so I'm off to investigate. I don't claim any personal wisdom on these things. They've always puzzled me, but my personal response to my own puzzledness has always rang in my heart, "I do not think it mean what you think it mean," then off to find something that resonates with my soul.

The OT wouldn't have much meaning or use to me at all without understanding it in a Christian manner, as pointing to Christ the Incarnate God. Didn't you say before that you study the Bible from a secular perspective? If so, naturally we would come to different meanings and purposes for many passages.

Erasing accidental double post.

The life of faith is a difficult struggle. I lost faith years ago, that is in my own ability to understand these and many many other puzzling verses on my own or from a plain reading. But, with the wisdom of the Fathers and in context of the Church calendar (set long, long ago) the verse makes *perfect* sense to me, and brings about spiritual fruit if I follow the spiritual meaning of dashing evil thoughts on the rock, who is Christ, which is what Scriptures are meant to do. Edited to add: More interpretation on this verse from the 500's, "But let us search out the meaning of this saying in detail. ‘Babylon’ means confusion. For Babel has the same meaning as Shechem (Gen 12:6). ‘Daughter of Babylon’ means enmity [or the enemy]. First the soul is put to confusion and so it produces sin; but he calls sin miserable, because sin (and I have spoken of this elsewhere) has no existence or substance of its own but is brought into existence through our own carelessness; and again through our correction it is destroyed and loses its existence. Therefore, he says, as though a holy man were speaking to sin, ‘Blessed is he who pays back to you what we have received.’ Let us learn what we have given, what we have received, and what we should desire to give back again. We have given our desire and we received back sin. This text calls ‘happy’ the man who gives back this evil and by this ‘giving back’ he means no longer doing it. Then he adds, ‘Happy the man who takes your little ones and dashes them against a rock’—as if he would say: Happy the man who seized the things generated from you, ‘the enemy’, i.e. the evil thoughts [logismoi], not giving them a chance to grow strong in him and constrain him to evil deeds, but immediately, while they are still in their infancy, before they are fed and grow strong against him, flings them down on the rock, which is Christ. In other words he utterly destroys them by taking refuge in Christ. (pp. 174-5)" St. Dorotheus of Gaza taken from the blog, Logismoi. (St. Dorotheus is recognized in both East and Western Christianity as a Saint.)

And other translations say "little ones," but what's most important is the meaning. Why would the Bible say this, and why would the most ancient church prescribe this Psalm to be sung during Lent, a time of repentance? We can read the words and just take the verse literally and be puzzled at best or puke or loose faith at worst, or we can learn something valuable from those wiser than us. "As the Psalmist said, “O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed, happy shall he be that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones!â€. Do you understand the spiritual meaning of this? Babylon is the kingdom of the devil and his children are the thoughts. Christ is the Stone. Blessed is, therefore, the one who dashes the evil in himself from the start, destroying it with the eternal stone—Christ." St. Nikolai (Velimirovich)

Are you referring to Psalm 137? I was wondering about this verse "dashing the little ones upon the rock," last Lent because we sing it over and over and I thought it was talking about babies. My Godmother told me that the Church Fathers teach us that the little ones are the little sins or the little bad thoughts that lead us to sin. It makes perfect sense in the context of Lent because that time of year is specifically for spiritual rigor leading to deep repentance. The whole Psalm is about how we are in a foreign land longing for Zion, which again makes perfect sense in the context of Lent, this life of passions being the foreign land and Zion being Heaven.

When I said "we" look at the OT differently now, I meant my husband and I, not the Orthodox Church.

If you are an audio person, Ancient Faith Radio is an excellent resource for free podcasts on all sorts of topics of ancient Christianity. www.ancientfaith.com

Questioning the Bible, the Old Testament in particular was my husband's and my first step out of modern American evangelical Christianity. The wisdom about how to read and understand the Bible wasn't being taught and our questions had no answers until we found the Orthodox Church, or rather it found us. If we hadn't found the OC, I don't know what our Christianity would look like right now. Anyway, we look at the Old Testament differently now. Here are a few articles scratching the surface of how we look at the OT now. These were recently shared in our social group, Exploring Orthodox Christianity which you are welcome to join and question / explore away! http://www.fatheralexander.org/booklets/english/old_new_testament_e.htm http://www.piousfabrications.com/2011/09/on-old-testament-violence-and-orthodox.html?m=1 http://fatherjohn.blogspot.com/2013/06/stump-priest-what-about-violence-in-old.html?m=1 Our social group - all are welcome to explore ancient Christianity and ask away! http://forums.welltrainedmind.com/forum/140-exploring-orthodox-christianity/

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This has happened to me too. I can't concentrate. I'm hoping its a stage in life rather than a damaged brain.

livetoread, I'm sorry. :-( I didn't intend to offend or put people (you - seekers, etc.) in a box. It's a verse of Scripture I've held dear for many years. It speaks to me of a two way relationship between God and man. It tells me that it's not all me, nor is it all God. We both have a part in reconciliation. Maybe the story is not over yet?

Yes, I understand. Agreeing with Milovany...seek and ye shall find, knock and the door shall be opened to you. This verse has all new meaning for me. :D

To the OP: I've been thinking about your question for days ever since you posted it. I responded earlier, but I have a few additional thoughts. If I rewind 2,000 years and take a mental imaginary peek (based on historical documents) into Jesus' ministry this is what I see: Jesus taught and preached to the Jews. His disciples were Jews. The people crowding around Jesus constantly were Jews. Jesus taught at the Jewish Temple. Those who were responsive to his message were the Jewish outcasts and sinners. Those who followed Christ after His ascension worshipped in Jewish synagogues. Those who spread the Gospel to all the nations were Jews. If we could peek back into time, I submit that what we call Christianity today would have seemed like a Jewish religion. But without the historical perspective, when we think of "Christianity," we may have a tendency to imagine what we know of our own experience. Maybe your daughter is having visions of Americans worshiping in a modern Christian style, and that is her vision of Christianity. IDK...but, if we want to know what it was like then, we have to look at the historical documents and even at the most ancient churches that still practice Christianity in the ancient fashion. If we do that, we will see a Jewish foundation to our Christianity. I was also thinking of your daughter's question in terms of mathematics and world population during time of the spread of Christianity. Just for fun, I did a little quick web research on populations during the time of Jesus. One estimate says that there were 4,200,000 Jews at the time of Christ and the world population is said to have been somewhere between 100,000,000-300,000,000. Time and numbers will make the picture clear that what started out as a Jewish sect over time and distance became a Gentile religion. I tried to find out how many Jews were part of "The Way," - what the early Christians were called - but I couldn't find any numbers. Of course it spread very rapidly and in every direction. From a modern American mind it would seem like the Jewish people did not see Jesus as the Son of God. But, what we have today, one-third of the earth's population calling themselves Christian, was spread by Jews who followed Christ. These are a few of my scattered thoughts. I'm interested to know how you and your daughter are doing on the quest to answer this question. :) Here is an interesting wiki article on the history of the Jewish Christian. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Christian. This is also a really great quick read on the history of early Christianity: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_early_Christianity My priest kindly shared his notes with me titled "Passing the Baton," in which he explains all the different ways that Christianity was passed down to us from the Jews and how the early Christians passed it on to what we have today, which in the Orthodox Church still remarkably reflects ancient synagogue worship. If you are interested in a summary of my priest's notes with references, please PM me.

Saving for later to write down. DS & DD loves them.

My priest just did a series of teachings on the continuation of the faith from Judaism through the early church up to today. He organized his talks by topics of practice. For example the first week was on worship: how did the Jews worship and how did the earliest Christians worship (most of whom were Jews), and how do we worship today in the Orthodox Church. He explained how it went from this (Jewish custom) to that (Christian custom.). Like the blessing at the end of the service for example: the Jewish celebrant would hold up his hands and make an open triangle with his ring fingers and pinkie fingers separated from Their ring fingers (like the vulcan salute but with two hands put together) and he would pronounce the blessing on the people. It was believed that the blessing would come from God and go through the triangle shape of his hands and go out to the people. When some Jews became Christian and they held their services (at first in Jewish synagogues - until they got kicked out) the blessing portion of the service morphed into making the sign of the cross over the people. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Synagoge%2C_Enschede%2C_Mozaiek.jpg'>http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Synagoge%2C_Enschede%2C_Mozaiek.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Synagoge%2C_Enschede%2C_Mozaiek.jpg There are many more examples he gave over a period of 6 or 7 talks. If you are interested in reading my priests notes - he might be willing to share them by emailing a copy to me. I've been meaning to ask him for a copy for a while because the talks were so informative and confirming that we Orthodox Christians are practicing the faith as it was handed down by the earliest Christians and therefore as a completion of the Jewish faith since the earliest Christians were practicing the Jewish faith as fulfilled in Christ. Send me a PM if you are interested in his notes, or if he doesn't share them I could ask him for the names of the resources he used to form his talks - I'm sure he'd be willing to share those.

Me no like. I hope you find a peaceful, worshipful situation.