For Elder Paisios? Stigmata is not Orthodox. Incorruptible flesh is. I don't know what lights in the sky is. For the sake of simplicity, I stand corrected. Don't use Google. You can find Orthodox Saint stories from the official Orthodox websites. Here is a link to the website for my jurisdiction: http://oca.org/saints/lives

Two different kinds of questions, albeto. One is about medical issues, one is about God. It's wholly appropriate to mention the 1,000's of years over the globe of consistent stories when one asks a question about God's radio silence.

They even said it was from the devil.

Totally a side note: We learned about this when we studied Astronomy last year. I thought it was curious that it was observed in 1054, the year of the Great Schism. I don't know that anyone Orthodox or Catholic considers this significant, but when we encountered this in our studies I was like, "woah!" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SN_1054

I'm responding to my own post here to give an update that I do not intend to link "legitimate" miracles. I don't know how to legitimatize them. There are countless stories, but obviously I can't personally vouch for them. I can say that Elder Paisios was recently canonized a Saint in the Orthodox Church. This legitimatizes him as an ambassador for Christ, as all Christians are called to be, in my book. But, I can't give more assurance than that. Sorry.

I'll try to hit as many as I can while my kids are doing piano lessons. I'll put my responses in blue below.

I just didn't feel I had more to offer you in responding to a topic that we seemed to be at an impasse about. You replied that we were not at an impasse if I could offer examples of "legitimate" miracles. I will try to do that, but in the meantime, I wanted to chime in that I don't have time to find a story or stories that might qualify in your mind. I will possibly have time later. Most of my responses have been on my phone, which makes it hard to go into detail. I realize that your responses are with good intentions in offering an alternative to yet another community of faith. I have no upset in reading them or continuing to respond. I'll write more later. It seems like from my correspondence with you on this thread is that we come from different places as to what satisfies us as human beings. I don't mean to misrepresent you, but you seem to be satisfied with rational and scientific reasoning. For me, rational and scientific reasoning doesn't satisfy me. I need more. I need God. I need the spiritual. So, we may continue to end up at an impasse because I will continue to mention what satisfies me and you will continue to ask for data that satisfies you, which I may try to supply but since my human experience wants more I don't really know how to think like that. But, I will engage again and try to be more detailed and direct when I have more time and a computer to type on.

I don't have expectations of convincing you is what I mean. I'll try to write more later.

If you don't think we are at an impasse, I may engage a little more. I'm working now, but I may have time later this afternoon while the kids are in piano lessons. If I can respond, I'll respond to your questions, comments, but I don't have any grandiose ideas of convincing you. Maybe there is someone reading this thread though, who loves Jesus and wants communion with God who is bothered by the inconsistent message as seen from their perspective and it would give them some hope, and/or direction on their journey to know that the Orthodox faith there for them. :)

We gave reasons that satisfy us, but they don't satisfy you, so we are at an impasse. The fullness of the Orthodox faith which includes the pre-incarnation of God miracles, the coming of God in the flesh, the continuation through the Saints and the Life of the Orthodox Church, the martyrs, the Scriptures, yes the miracles BCE as well as all the centuries since the Incarnation of God. These all speak in one voice to the voice of God. That there are millennia, that they are in all cultures who embraced Orthodoxy (America not yet, but there is some witness) and that the voice is organic and consistent and consistent with the Scriptures and the prophets of old is where we hear His voice. That some of us don't hear as clearly as the Saints is because we yet need more healing, and we go to Jesus through the Church and the Sacraments for that and personal prayer and personal seeking and asking, but not just to see a parlor trick or hear a booming voice from the sky but for communion with God and healing of our souls. Yes, I know this doesn't answer your question and it's peppered with personal testimony, but there it is. I won't go looking for a miracle story that has the potential of just "getting made fun of." You can find then all over the internet and in the book / books written about the Saints. May all the best of the universe be upon you and especially peace.

To clarify, we don't experience the silence corporately. Individually we do and I do, but I don't consider it As God not speaking but me not hearing. If He did happen to hold back His voice from me, or not open my ears so to speak, it's for my good. That is all. All the best of the best to you.

Okay. I'm sure I can't soothe you. I googled "miracles of elder Paisios" and read the first two hits, which included many stories. Like I said before, I have not personally experienced his miracles. The stories of miracles from elder Paisios are vast, they number in the 1,000's according to one source. I'm sorry I can't vouch for them. That they are vast, that they are told by the people and not from the higher ups only and that they have congruency with each other, other Saint stories and the whole testimony of God's stories is what gives them validity to me and millions of others over the globe. I'm sorry I can't convince you. It's not my aim anyway. I posted on this thread to state that the radio silence is not the experience of Orthodox Christians.

Not to argue but God came in the flesh. Even if God doesn't speak to me personally, I cannot deny Jesus. Whether He speaks to me or seems silent I trust it's for my good. What if He spoke to me and that led to a serious pride problem? It could be harmful to me and others. I would rather not have the particular expectation of "hearing a voice" or seeing a miracle. If I hear His voice or don't hear it, if I witness a miracle or don't witness one, let it be for my salvation.

I'm not frustrated, just busy, so it took me a while to respond. By the Saints stories being organic, I mean that they are publicized organically, meaning many different people share different stories about the Saint and they have similarities yet they are unique to each person. By the time they are compiled there is a consensus and agreement in their Orthodoxy. In other words the Saint becomes "famous" for lack of a better word based on the consensus of the people rather than by a type of royal decree or because of one story going viral for example. It's the deep rooted consensus "of the people" that makes it organic. There are miracles attributed to Saint Paisios, pages and pages of stories if you Google miracles of Elder Paisios of Athos and a 700 page book about him, which you are free to read and believe or disbelieve if you wish. Elder Paisios went to sleep in The Lord in the 1990's so, yes, there are miracles today and elders and Saints of God. No radio silence. Just because we can't personally hear or because we don't see these miracles in America doesn't mean that there's radio silence. The point of all my posts is to say the problem is with me if the "radio" seems silent, it's not with God. "humility gets God's attention"...no. That's not what I'm saying. It's a common trait among the Saints who hear God and show forth miracles. It's not about getting God's attention. We have. His attention, does He have ours?

Ugh, I had to work until after 10:00 tonight. I'll try to contribute more tomorrow if the thread is still active. If not, let's do this again sometime. I enjoy a lively discussion about important things like God's voice. :)

Which part? The part about Jesus or the story of the Garden of Eden? I believe Jesus is the Great Physician because I notice his presence and his story throughout all of creation and the stories of mankind. The suffering messiah story is in every time and place and culture on Earth. When Jesus came, He was recognized as God by many. I recognize Him as God. This is very different to me than sparkly unicorns and rainbow farts, etc. because this is the story of God. Very different than fantasy and silliness, very different. If your question was referring to the story of the Garden of Eden, then I will answer by saying that I believe that the purpose of the story is to explain the situation we find ourselves in as human beings, who cannot hear God. It gives the reason why we can't hear Him (sin) and it gives a picture of how it is before sin, which is open communication with God. The reason I referenced this story is because it explains exactly what the OP asked, in which the question was asked why isn't there a big booming voice in the sky telling us that God is near. The story explains through Adam and Even and the garden and the snake and the tree, etc. that God is near, but we cannot hear Him or communicate with him "in the cool of the day" as it says because of sin and the separation that we cause. The answer to the OP question is that it's not about his voice not being booming our loud enough, it's about our ears (figuratively speaking - and maybe physically speaking, idk because I haven't "heard" God) - it's the ears with the problem, not God's voice. Flip the thing around and you got it, at least according to Christian belief.

Albeto, Sparkly Unicorn, and SunnyDays thanks for the vigorous discussion. I have to work today, but will try to respond asap.

I was being sarcastic. :) I love these convos.

#1. No - two *very* different things. #2. No I'm saying that Christian belief is that those who cannot hear God is pretty much everyone, unless one hasn't lived in sin, or unless some healing has taken place. The story of the garden in Genesis gives a good picture of the situation we are in. Without sin, before sin, the man and the woman walked with God and there was open communication and understanding. Then, after sin, there was a separation and misunderstanding. Communication was difficult if not impossible. So, here we are. That's the way it is for us. Of course, as Christians we believe in a Great Physician, Jesus, the only begotten Son of God. By participating in and with His life through communion, confession, and acts of love we receive healing. The more one participates and cooperates, the more one is healed, not just the "ears to hear" but everything else. So, that's what I'm suggesting. :)

"suppress self identity" is not what I mean by extreme humility. It's more along the lines of finding true self. Guilt...homey don't play dat. We may be like two ships sailing in the night on these things, or speaking two different languages. Extreme humility is the way of Christ. If that doesn't speak to you, then...shrug...ok. It's the fingerprint of God for me, and it happens to be the common thread among those who issue forth miracles and hear from God as well.

Okay, I'll be patient...*sigh* No, I'm happy to engage a little more, and I'll try to answer, but we may just end up going nowhere. Let's see. ;) Paragraph #1 - Yes. The stories of Orthodox Saints are told in an organic way. They usually come from communities of people who knew, witnessed and lived with the particular Saint. The stories grow over time in popularity and eventually if and when the Orthodox consensus is that this person is indeed a Saint. It has been explained to me that this is different than how it's done in the Catholic tradition. Big picture, the Orthodox Saints are raised up organically by their own communities where they lived and their holiness was apparent to all around them. I agree that it can be hurtful to say that all Pentecostals are void of humility. I didn't say that though. I said that the group I was involved in had a common characteristic and feeling of competition about "spiritual gifts." Here, I'll admit it, I wanted to be one of them. But, alas, I could not speak in tongues and I couldn't hear directly from God and I never healed anyone. I admit that the pride was in myself and perhaps it was just me who felt there was a competition and maybe I was the only one who wished to one up the next guy. This was my personal experience, which did not include Charismatic Catholics, nor any other group besides the one/s I was directly involved with. So, please don't mistake my comments for general statements about all Pentecostals. If I implied that, I'm sorry. Like I said and admitted, I have not directly observed a living Saint, that I know of. (Though I admit my priest is very humble and gentle. He wouldn't even squish a spider when one came into the parish hall.) So, the stories of the Saints that I speak of are not my direct observation. As I said above, the stories come about organically and are compiled organically within whole communities where the Saint lived. That there are book shelves full of these stories and that they all have similar *extreme* humility is what I find to be the curious thing. I'm not talking about just "niceness," I'm talking "take up thy cross" humility. *And* God does issue forth miracles from these Saints, both while they are living, and from their dead bodies. *And* it happens today. (Google Elder or Saint Paisios from Mt. Athos.) I will not attempt to persuade you or anyone else. Anyone is free to read these stories, or try to find a living Saint and visit them. The body of Saint John of San Francisco rests in the Cathedral of Joy of All Who Sorrow in San Francisco. I had the privilege of visiting him. It is the universal witness of the Orthodox Saints that was a huge contributor to my conversion from Evangelical Protestantism. Always in the back of my mind, even the forefront of my mind at times, I would think. If God is true and living and the Holy Spirit is real, then there would be some witness of His presence. And it makes perfect sense to me that the most humble among us would be the ones to hear from God. And it makes perfect sense to me that the ones who struggle with pride and who's ears are not healed, me being the first among them, would not be able to hear. (oh, but I want to...) To address your last paragraph, no I'm not talking about personality. Extreme humility has nothing to do with personality. I'm not talking about common humility, but extraordinary humility. There's a big difference. It's "Take up your cross and follow me," for real. You can find it in the stories. Go ahead and read them, if you wish.

albeto, I like your direct way of communicating your thoughts. Just so noone is misunderstanding my post/s. I don't claim to have humility or to be a humble seeker. In fact, I have a really bad pride problem. My ears are dull of hearing. But, I want to be close to God and so I press on the healing path. What I have observed is that the ones who do have "ears to hear" are characterized by extreme humility, like nothing you would normally see or experience. We call them Saints in Orthodox Christianity. These people, men and women, can hear from God. I don't know if it's audibly, as I have not experienced it or read about the details of what that's like. But, they have the ability to connect, communicate, and hear God because their "ears" have been healed from the damage caused by sin. They have lived repentance, most for many many years, and they have lived humility, extreme humility. Not just, "oh I'm so humbly seeking God." Their humility is lived by denying self. I certainly don't claim this, but try to move inch by inch in that direction. God help me.

I'll try again, but I don't expect I will do any better this time. In terms of observing the Pentecostal believers, the observation was done by living as one of them. After years of being fully engaged in this life, I could not honestly say I believed the prophesies spoken out in church and prayer meetings were anything but feelings from individuals. I observed false prophesies when one spoken about my pregnancy was false. That's pretty black and white. As for the Orthodox prophesies, like I said I've not been in the presence of a living Saint, that I know of, or I would share my observation with you. All I can share is that my experience reading the stories of Orthodox Saints is that there is a common characteristic of humility among them. This is not true of the Pentecostals. I lived with them for years and there was always a sense of members trying to one up each other in prophecies and miracles or "blessedness." I observe this by listening to what they say and filing that info in the database of my mind. It's from personal experience. Of all the Pentacostals I've known, very few were humble, one comes to mind who lived in a wheelchair but the rest were always trying to lay on hands to heal people, tell prophesies or speak in garbledeygook. The holiest people, again through stories written by others about them, always include some kind of example of extreme humility. One comes to mind where a woman dressed as a man entered a monastery to become a monk. I can't remember why she did this, but there she was doing the monk thing when one day a woman who lived nearby went to the Abbot of the monastery and complained that she was raped by this woman/man dressed monk and got pregnant by her/him. As the story goes this woman ended up raising the child as her own without complaint. When she finally reposed it was discovered she was a woman and innocent. Miracles came forth from her dead body. (I may be getting some if these details wrong or mixed up, forgive me if I am. I read a lot of Saint stories and sometimes they get garbled in my mind.). Nevertheless, the big picture is that these stories speak of unbelievable humility, and it's a common quality quite different than anything I've seen or experienced in real life, and if anyone was to display the presence of God and have completely healed ears to hear God, you would expect these characteristics from them, not what you see on TBN or from pastors who push over their congregants and scream a command for healing to come upon them. That's the observed difference, whether it satisfied you or not, it satisfies me.

Being an observer myself, probably not objective, but an observer nonetheless, I've been wholly engaged in the Pentecostal persuasion, in which its members claim to hear and speak the word of God all the time and every day, I never believed it. Why? I didn't know then but it didn't feel/seem true. Fast forward 20 years and I'm an Orthodox Christian, wholly engaged to the best if my ability. In the Orthodox tradition there are Saints who hear from God. I don't know by what means because I'm not one of them. What is the difference and why do I believe it now whereas I didn't believe it before? The difference is humility. The Pentecostals I was wholly engaged with were not humble. They claimed to speak for God with reckless abandon. Often times they were blatantly wrong in real time. One guy told me I was pregnant with a boy who would become a "mighty man of God." I didn't believe him for a second. I knew I was pregnant with a girl. So I just nodded and smiled and thought, "yeah right." When it comes to Orthodox Saints on the other hand, I have not been in the presence of a *known* living Saint, so all I have to go on is the stories. Though this isn't very concrete evidence, I admit, there is the common element of humility in all the stories of the Saints I read, which is very unique and what I would expect from someone who is that close to God and who had *ears to hear.*