So, if I understand you correctly, my daughter with more than the average number of piercings and a tattoo is a vulgar mouthed, rebellious teenager? and.... all the problems in the world today are because of the humanists? I think we (collective) tend to make blanket statements without thinking it through entirely. I have done this myself. So I try to extend the benefit of the doubt to the other person. Then again, maybe they meant exactly what they said. My dd with multiple piercings and a tattoo is a lovely, respectful, sweet spoken young lady. She intelligent, hard working and respected by her elders and employers. She is active in her church youth group. In fact, a previous employer called her yesterday asking her to come back to work for a couple months because she was the best young employee he had. This humanist mother has very high moral expectations for her children, and has raised them to be respectful, hard working, honest contributing members of society. Of course, if you feel having piercings or tattoos is immoral, I know quite a few Christians who would fit that description also. Janet

:iagree:

I enjoy jigsaw puzzles, but not in the summer. That's winter time entertainment. We did a couple Thomas Kincaid ones and one of stained glass windows. Hard. Janet

I'm aware of what the original question was, and I answered that. But then it seemed this whole thread got derailed into a religious/non-religious debate. You're absolutely right. People will vote and make choices based on their moral compass. I was actually thinking that while I was writing. We are all influenced, either positively or negatively, by our parents, friends, communities. People will vote on what I considered totally wrong headed interpretations of scripture whether I like it or not. When in a conversation such as this, with people from varied backgrounds, someone supports the death penalty because 'it's in the Bible' or 'God instituted it', it doesn't help me to see their point of view. For the purpose of this discussion I would like to see facts. Does it reduce crime? Is it better for society? Is there no chance for rehabilitation? Are there safety nets that can be instituted that will assure an innocent will never be put to death? Something concrete. God instituted it is not concrete nor provable. When they're in the voting booth, and they vote because the Bible says so or God ordained it, that is absolutely their right. But for the sake of a discussion such as this, I would like to see it backed up with evidence. Not with a book that is interpreted in more ways than I know. 'I believe ...... because it's in the Bible, but also can also offer evidence and defense of that belief.' Using the Bible in a vacuum will not convince many (other than like minded Christians) of your point of view. Janet

Stated so much better than I could have done. Also, although a simple count of his words regarding physical punishment might be small in comparison to all the words he has written, they are strong and powerful words and have the potential to ruin lives. A person doesn't have to speak/write volumes in order to do damage. It can be done with very few words. And that outweighs all the good he might write - in my opinion, of course. Janet

This wasn't address to me, but since I 'agreed' with Phred on this point, I wanted to clarify. I didn't understand Phred to be saying that Christians wanted to see people put to death because of religion. Rather that some Christians base their support of the death penalty (which results in the death of people) on their interpretation of the Bible. ("The Bible is replete with examples of the death penalty, instituted by God. Since God's character does not change, I see no good reason to abandon it. What is punishment to one is mercy to others.") Then when Christians say "they [we] have the added comfort of knowing that God will take care of those who are executed --one way or another.", I think that sounds to non-Christians like a cop-out. * We support the death penalty because it's in the Old Testament, and God condoned it. * We support the death penalty because without capital punishment there might not be Christianity today. (A friend of mine used this as her basis for supporting the death penalty.) * In the end, it will all be okay one way or the other because God will take care of it. * If you believe in God, you shouldn't worry about the death penalty because God is in ultimate control. (Same friend...) * We, society, give the final shot, pull the switch, whatever, but we're comforted because God will make it right. Peek A Boo, I know you didn't make any of the above comments. I understand you do not support capital punishment. Just a sense I've picked from talking to Christians and from some of the posts in this thread. These arguments don't work for non-Christians. Actually they don't work for this Christian either. I'm only speaking to capital punishment, not abortion or euthanasia. Janet

I might be on thin ice here, but what the heck. I agree with most of what Phred said here. I don't want laws instituted based upon one group's interpretation of Scripture; especially a literal interpretation of the Old Testament. From this discussion here, there are people backing up polar opposite positions on the death penalty and basing those positions on the Bible. I don't care to live under a theocracy, even a Christian theocracy especially if the Old Testament is going to be the basis of law. That scares the bejeezes out of me. Please, no rotten tomatoes. Janet

2,400 sq. ft. for 7 (well 6 now since dd moved out, but she's always here...). It's fine. We also have 1.6 acres which is they live during the summer. I'm pondering downsizing as the children leave the nest. As long as I have room for my books. ;) Janet

Do you dilute the vinegar or use full strength? I always line dry clothes. Hubby grew up with crunchy towels (my mil never owned a dryer - with 14 kids:tongue_smilie:) I thought they were rough when I started line drying but don't even notice it now. My expectations have lowered somewhat.... Janet

I was 24 and dh was two weeks away from 27 when we married - after 3 1/2 yrs of dating. We were married 4 yrs. before our first child was born. We just celebrated our 23rd anniversary. :) Janet

I voted for the 4th choice. I do not spank (anymore). However, I will never criticize people who use spanking sparingly and wisely. The Pearls are another whole case. Not only can it lead to physical abuse, it is emotional abuse in my opinion. It's breaking the child, the human spirit. Something different than swatting a bottom on occasion. Janet

God instituted the death penalty? But see, I do not believe that. It was instituted by man. It is man (human) who is sitting in the seat of the judge, handing out the death sentence. And because it is man making that choice, there will be mistakes. In this case, a mistake means an innocent human life was taken. Janet

My oldest moved out in January. Now there's another thing I can add to my list of worries: being followed. Janet

I've refrained from making any comments, because words cannot even describe how the Pearls make me feel. Yes, I've read the book, his articles, his website. I've read what he wrote in context. I wish I could produce some sympathy for his warped mind. But, I cannot. Early, early on, with our first, not much with our second, we tried his methods. These older two are the ones who have suffered the most - especially our oldest. I have sobbed because I cannot rewind the clock and do it differently. But there you are. I proud to say my youngest three have never been hit, they've never been set up for failure, they were nursed on demand until they were 3 or 4 yrs., co-slept with mom and dad, carried, held and loved, when they scraped their knee they got kisses and bandaids. You know what? The times when they need disciplining are so rare that I really can't remember the last one. They are not whiny, spoiled or selfish. Amazing. When one writes a book like what Pearl has written, he is stepping into dangerous territory. Especially when he presents it as the right, true Christian way to raise children. (Like the title of the Ezzo book: Raising Kids God's Way.) Some people can read his writings and take bits and pieces. Others are most apt to try and follow explicitly his instructions. Whether he intended it or not, he gave parents the tools and instructions to be abusive. Of course, the final responsibility lies with us, the parents. But without his (Pearl) instruction, my oldest children's younger years would have been different. What if someone had handed me a book about attachment parenting? Janet

Shaking my head in disbelief. Janet

And people wonder why we have a problem with teenage pregnancy? Janet

Oh, this is priceless. Janet

Beautiful Joe - never did finish it because my dd sobbed so hard. I was trying to be tough... Where the Red Fern Grows There's a picture book by Patricia Pollaco that always makes me cry. A father and his son help re-unite a Jewish couple who were separated during WWII. Still have to read it every Christmas. Can't recall the name. It seems the older I get, the easier I cry. Janet

I haven't been here for long, but wanted to offer my thoughts and prayers. Janet

I can only think of one book that was painful for me to read,and that was The Yearling. The grammar, the dialect drove me so crazy I couldn't focus on the story. But the movie I loved. Janet

Yes! Again, yes. And again, yes. And that I feel like a fish out of water among many Christians. Which leads to many questions and musings. I finally figured out how to do that multi-quote thing.... Janet

I had so many books going at one time this past winter and spring I think I fried my brain. I decided to take a reading vacation for pure enjoyment. One book - Luncheon of the Boating Party by Susan Vreeland. Janet

We always spend the 4th with my dh's family. Huge get together lasting all day. He comes from a family of 14, and everyone tries to make it home for the 4th. Especially important now that my fil turned 90 this year. And then I usually sleep most of the next day trying to recuperate. Janet

Movies too expensive, popcorn way too expensive. Plus I like to relax whenI watch a movie. Put on my jammies, grab a wine cooler and some chips and stretch out on my bed. I think the last one I saw was Order of the Phoenix. No, we had free tickets and took the kids to the chipmunk movie. :glare: Janet

The Oregon Coast - especially near Yachats. Or my own orchard. Janet