I knew I held on to my copy of How to Teach Spelling for a reason...good to know that reference is in there. I've had ABCs and all their tricks on my wish list for a while too. It must depend on what print run of the cards you have...that's not on the back of my X phonogram card! Then again, my set only has three of the four sounds for i and at least one other typo that I've found, though I can't remember which card it's on, I bought my set almost a year ago (I guess it will be a year ago in April), and I would assume the OP has a newer set with everything corrected, I suppose.

You've probably seen the LoE basic phonogram list (it's here: http://www.logicofenglish.com/resources/phonogram-list). What's missing from that list is the 30 or so "advanced" phonograms. That includes the sound /z/ for x, and other lesson-common phonograms. I don't know of a listing online for those advanced phonograms, but it is Appendix E of "Uncovering the Logic of English" if you have that book. I think your "pot" and "on" example must be regional -- they sound the same to me. If you are using any phonogram based spelling program you are going to run into that issue with some words. I usually just point out those differences to my kids, and tell them something like, remember to say ... for spelling. An example for us is the word "milk." It often sounds like "melk" to us. I just remind the kids, say it clearly "milk" or that most people say it that way.

I don't think grammar instruction is necessarily very important for a first grader (my DD is in 3rd grade and we're just starting to move into more grammar instruction). But what about spelling or phonics? Unless your DS is an exceptional speller and reader, I would think that most kids still need either phonics or spelling as first graders. If you are enjoying LoE Foundations, maybe it would make sense to use Essentials? You don't have to do the grammar portions of it if you don't want to. I'm using Essentials with my DD primarily for spelling.

I haven't done the advanced lists yet, but I plan to do it next year as our second year through the program. I'm guessing we'll review the phonograms and rules as necessary as we go. There are so many phonograms to remember that at this point my DD is not 100% solid on all the sounds of all the less-used phonograms, so I think it will be good review. We also have not done all the grammar and composition, so we may do more of that the second time through. As far as what to do with your five year old while you wait for Foundations to come out...you could just wait since Foundations does really start at the very beginning with the strokes that make up portions of each letter and with learning the phonogram sounds for the first time. But if you want to be working with your dd right now in a way that would "fit in" with what foundations teaches, you could look at the handwriting products in the Logic of English store: http://www.logicofen...ore/handwriting You could buy a pdf of either the student handwriting book or the quick reference chart and start working on the basic strokes (it doesn't have to be on paper -- you could do it on a salt tray, on dry erase, in shaving cream, etc) or a few letters. Or you could start working on making sure your five year old knows all the sounds of the first 25 single letter phonograms if she doesn't know them already. You mentioned that she can sound out small words, so I am assuming she does know at least some of the sounds. But since LOE teaches all the sounds at once, you could work on the additional sounds of some of those letters with fun games. Since you'll need the phonogram cards later anyway you could order a set now, or if you are not wanting to order anything yet, you can see a list of the phonograms laid out the way LOE does it on their website, and you could make your own flash cards or game cards. Any work you do right now with her right now will just be either stuff she will review in Foundations, or you may be able to start her part way through the program by the time you have it in your hands. I was able to start my Kindergartener in at about lesson 46, but I started my almost-4-yr-old right at the beginning.

My K'er is enjoying Apples a lot as a supplement. He's advanced in math, so Apples is pretty easy for him...but it is super fun for both him and DD8

Thanks everyone for the awesome thoughts...I'm still digesting them. Writing has always come naturally to me, so it's hard for me to decide how it should best be taught. I had what I would consider average or typical writing instruction through my public school years. I started out college in pre-engineering and had to spend hours upon hours studying for science and math classes to pull off a C or worse, while meanwhile I was getting A's in any class involving writing with very little effort. Eventually I wised up and changed my major to English. :laugh: But I did not have a teaching emphasis so I never developed any theories regarding writing pedagogy. :-)

I read aloud to my two older kids (3rd grader and K'er) 1801: Year of the Horseless Carriage by Genevieve Foster. I did a little review of it here on my blog. The war of 1812 and Napoleon are discussed through the thread of two major inventions of the early 19th century -- the steamship and the steam locomotive.

forty-two, these are amazing thoughts and questions! Exactly some of the stuff I have been thinking about, but my thoughts have not been nearly so organized so far... Now I want to see some interviews with major curriculum writers or home education experts asking them these questions...I would love to hear their answers! Who volunteers? :laugh:

I haven't used much of a formal writing program yet. I dabbled in a couple programs with DD8, but it was obvious we needed to focus on spelling first. She is the type to get extremely stressed if she needs to write things she doesn't know how to spell. Now that we are over half way through LOE she is feeling a lot more comfortable with spelling, and can at least choose reasonably accurate or logical phonograms if she doesn't actually know how to spell a word. I've started to read a lot of threads about writing programs. I see a lot of threads comparing x to y to z in terms of the type of work required, time, difficulty, cost, etc. I'd like to take a step back and figure out WHY I might want to go for one of the many writing programs available. I see that writing programs vary greatly, and I know what appeals to me, but I want to make an informed decision...are they really all going to lead to the same outcome of a writer who is well prepared for the rigors of writing in higher grades, college and professionally? So, I am guessing there have been some threads...but I don't think I am using the right search terms because I am not finding them. Can anyone help me find some of those threads? Or are there some great websites or blogs that will help me figure out what I want my philosophy of writing instruction to be?

Is there anything definite about the next level of foundations being available for Beta Test next year? Or are you just making a guess that it might be? I didn't really have the possibility of that on my radar. My Pre-K'er will still be doing foundations next year (we just started, and will be going pretty slow since he is just about to turn 4). I had been assuming my current K'er would be more ready to try essentials again after finishing foundations. (I tried it with him during the first half of the year but I was having a hard time breaking it down into chunks small enough for his attention span). But I would definitely consider another beta test foundations level, for him depending on how his reading and spelling abilities come along between now and then.

We are doing American history this year and using a lot of these same resources. I love the Maestro books....Totally wish they went past 1815! I wanted to do primarily literature based history along with quality non fiction picture books. I made my own list from resources like Sonlight, Guest Hollow, and All Through The Ages (ebook with lit listed by historical time period). Here's a link to the page on my blog about what we're doing: http://homeschooldiscoveries.com/our-curriculum/united-states-history-year-1/ We've gone through a lot of the units more quickly than I thought we would, so we're already up to the "westward expansion/pioneers" era after the war of 1812. I need to go through my resources and make a list for the civil war soon...since we'll definitely be getting there this year!

Sweet! It's even in stock at my close-by Target! Does it have a lid? I was really hoping for something with a lid....but for something that would not only fit the flash cards but the game cards too, I might be willing to forgo the lid. :-)

Okay, fellow Logic of English users...I know this has been brought up before, but I am really having trouble keeping all my phonogram and spelling rule cards organized now that I have three students (one in Essentials, 2 in foundations) that need three different specific groups of phonogram flash cards, spelling rule cards, etc -- not to mention the cards we haven't even used yet! I think a file box with dividers is the right solution, but the bigger file boxes seem to still only be about 4x6 (too small) and the other random small plastic bins and boxes at Target are generally either too narrow or not tall enough. I have tried rubber banding groups of cards, but my rubber bands constantly break...I also tried baggies, but that got bulky and still hard to find what I wanted. Has anyone found a file box that would fit? Or any other creative solutions?

The beginning lessons fit my almost 4 year old to a T. He's super curious about words and writing. I can keep it fun and so far do most of a lesson in 10-15 minutes. We're at lesson 10. For my Kindergartener, it isn't as much of a perfect fit but it's a better fit than what I was doing before. I started teaching him to read about a year ago with Phonics Pathways. We stopped using that early last fall, and I started using Essentials (slowly) with him and then just practicing reading. He can read Cat in the Hat or Frog and Toad with a bit of help. I had a hard time finding the right pacing for him with LOE Essentials though - he definitely wasn't ready for the workbook, but just doing some spelling dictation and a game or two here and there wasn't making the phonograms or rules "stick". We made it thru about lesson 8. So, I decided to try him out in Foundations, starting with about lesson 47. Some of the reading is still pretty easy for him, but it is the perfect difficulty of spelling and phonogram practice in manageable chunks of 5 words per lesson. The lessons seem longer at this point of the program. Since he still wants to practice reading, I am having him read to me for ten minutes from books we pick together (longer if he chooses) and work on Foundations for 15 minutes. We can't get thru a whole lesson in that time frame, especially since almost every lesson at this stage suggests a game (and I don't have the time or energy for a game every day!). But even with not doing the program with him exactly "as written", I still think it is working better than what I was doing before.

LOE is definitely great if you need something all planned out for you, and want "fun stuff" like games. I tried How to Teach Spelling before LOE and I just could not figure out how to make it work for us. My DD's spelling has improved tremendously (we're at lesson 23 of 40 right now). Next year we'll probably go thru it again with the advanced lists. It is definitely not the best "value" on the market in terms of rule and phonogram based programs, but if you need/want hand holding, it is so wonderful and user friendly. I don't mind at all having to use something else after she is done with the advanced lists - I'm hoping perhaps by that time (18 months or more from now) they may have the next level out or maybe by that point I won't need so much hand holding and I can use a simpler program. :-) I also just started using the Foundations beta with my DSs who are almost 4 and almost 6. I started the older one in half way thru that program and the younger one at the beginning. Then next year The older one will do Essentials, I guess.

It might be a bit much on his/her own, but with help it would be fine - some of it is straight copy work - just copying animal names and classification, habitat info a d definitions. Then there is a section on each animal page for the student to write what he/she learned. My 3rd grader could do this on her own but you might have to scribe for a younger student. There are also some general "note taking" pages for each chapter and project pages, but we didn't use those. There are suggested encyclopedias for older and younger students. We happened to already own the one suggested for older kids, but I think even my DD would have enjoyed the "younger" one a bit more - she liked learning about animals but tons of details is not her thing and the full animal encyclopedia is pretty detailed!

My DD is just finishing it up this week -- she read the last two chapters today. For her as a 3rd grader, it was a great independent science option. She did the book, a notebook and occasional outside reading but no projects. She did some of the suggested encyclopedia readings but thought they were pretty boring so I didn't push it. I think it would be great fun for younger kids too as a read aloud. You could really go as in depth as you wanted to with outside reading or not. It's pretty flexible that way!

I fell in love with it knowing it only went through 1815. They were just perfect for us. We just finished the last book, and now I am really stumped to find something spine-like as we continue our US History studies. I'm primarily aiming at my 3rd grade DD while encouraging my K'er to listen in (and he does, most of the time). Hakim (Story of US) and Collier/Collier (Drama of American History) seem a bit too detailed for the age of my kids. We tried one of the "America in the time of..." series (this: http://www.amazon.com/Lewis-Clark-Story-Nation-America/dp/1575729350/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1358537174&sr=8-1&keywords=america+in+the+time+of+lewis+and+clark) and the kids didn't like it nearly as much as the Maestro's books -- though this is the next-closest thing I have seen. I'm looking for something to give an overview of a time period (or multiple time periods if it is a longer text), not just a few scattered, random stories. The meat of our history studies is really a variety of non-fiction and fiction books we are checking out from the library, but I feel like we need something that gives an overview of the time period so that the individual pieces make sense. I'm not too concerned one way or the other about pictures/illustrations (though the illustrations in the Maestro books are certainly nice). I have often been reading the Maestro books to the kids over lunch or snack, so they really weren't looking at the pictures much anyway. Engaging writing style is probably the top concern. Anything we should investigate that would fit the bill?

I'm sure it depends on the kid and their learning style, but with trying many approaches, the thing that seems to be producing the best effects so far are songs to learn the facts. My DD knew some of the basic tables pretty well (2,3,5, and 9 -- don't forget to teach the "trick" for the pattern in the nines if she doesn't know that one already!). But DD couldn't remember from one day to the next the others. I searched amazon mp3 store for multiplication songs and had her pick a few tunes she liked (there are MANY choices), and bought songs just for the facts she needs help with. She's listening to them a couple times a day...and lo and behold after just a week she seems to know her facts a lot better.

I would agree that you need to start with the first book if your DS doesn't have a strong science background. I think a lot of the brilliance of BFSU is how Dr. Nebel takes concepts that are typically taught in older grades and makes them accessible for K-2. But, if your DS hasn't studied things like kinetic energy, friction, inertia, air as a mixture of gasses, gravity, plant structure, etc...there is still plenty to be gained and BFSU II will assume knowledge of the topics in BFSU I. Since your DS is older, you might be able, in some cases, to go through a lesson or two in one sitting...but at $5 for an ebook, you can hardly beat the price for what you can get out of it...especially if you search the internet for add-on books and activities beyond what's presented directly in the text. I've actually been nervous to dive into volume II as it looks pretty complex even having done most of volume 1. Required equipment for Volume II includes a nice microscope and a balance -- things I just haven't been ready to invest in quite yet (I'm also worried about the younger kids messing with the nice stuff!). I think we're finally going to dive into Vol. II this semester, but we're going to start with the C and D threads in that volume, since they look a lot less intimidating!!!

There are some "random" topics mixed in, so you may want to at least read through each lesson before you decide how far to skip ahead. I don't have my copy of B in front of me, so I am having a hard time thinking of examples but it might be things like parallel and perpendicular lines, time and money problems, etc. I am doing B with a very mathy K'er this year, and early on I would often ask him just one or two questions from a lesson (prefacing it with, "let's just review some easy stuff"), until I found the point where it was new material and truly more challenging. It does get harder - by lessons in the 70s or so they are adding two, two digit numbers together mentally. All that being said, unless we slow down a bunch, we will finish B well before the school year is over. I am not sure how I feel about starting C with a Kindergartener, so I am going to supplement with Singapore CWP and also LOF to add to our math time.

I will admit that I haven't -- I've browsed their preschool books online and I looked at a grammar book once at a convention for a few minutes...but it looked so "old fashioned" that I made the assumption they would approach math in an old fashioned (or at least "the same way I was taught in school") sort of way.

That's a good idea...I actually have a couple MM downloads I bought for extra practice that we haven't used. I must really have a pipe dream in mind...I think patterns are really interesting, and I feel like I personally I can learn a lot from someone just showing me a pattern AND explaining it. I mean, why can't I learn a concept or a "reason why" just from someone telling me and not having to figure it out myself? I feel like my DD thinks so much the way I do when it comes to math. DS on the other hand is just like my DH...DS5 can figure so many things out with very, very little explanation. Both he and my DH just seem to "get" math without trying. I made it all the way through three semesters of college calculus, but I had to work super, super hard, ask a ton of questions for more understanding, etc to get there.

Okay, maybe I have the wrong mental imagine of what Rod and Staff would be like...but it's hard to me imagine something like that teaching mental math tricks, KWIM. I mean, I never learned anything like that in school -- I have learned a ton of ways to do math in my head since we have been doing Right Start. I have talked to a lot of people who are naturally "good at math" and they figured out a lot of these strategies in their head on their own (things like the "nines trick" where you make something that ends in nine into a ten by giving it one from the other number when you are adding). I honestly would have never thought of that on my own, but it of course made a lot of sense once I saw it explained. Why does a curriculum that teaches "why something works" or teaches how to do math in your head have to also assume that a kid can "find a pattern" to understand something? It doesn't follow to me that they have to go together. I've always been lousy at "find the pattern" sorts of questions or making leaps of understanding beyond what is presented, but I can follow directions to learn a few new math tricks or even non-traditional algorithms. Can I have the best of both worlds? Traditional presentation while learning something beyond what I remember learning in a traditional school environment. Or is this just a pipe dream? :lol:

I'm not sure that I'm just looking for "traditional" in the way the math is approached. I like that RightStart teaches interesting ways of doing mental math, and ways of understanding math that seem better than the traditional ways I was taught. And in the earlier levels of right start it didn't seem like as many "leaps of understanding" were assumed in the lessons (or maybe DD was catching on faster in those levels? Or maybe I was better at filling in the holes of the explanations?). A lot of RightStart lessons lately seem to ask her to do several problems and then ask a question like, "What pattern do you see?" She absolutely hates that question and seems to find some interesting pattern in the numbers that have nothing to do with the point of the lesson. :glare: Then from that "what pattern do you see?" question, The lesson makes some kind of "point" that she was supposed to learn from figuring out the pattern (for example in one lesson, the "point" was that if you are multiplying three numbers together, it doesn't matter what order you multiply them in, and the problem may be easier depending on what order you multiply them in). Would it have been so bad to teach the same idea, but not ask her to "find the pattern"? AKA, just tell her "you can multiply these numbers in any order and look! Try it in a different order and see if it's any easier". I've tried to explain some of the lessons that way myself, but I seem to jumble the explanation in such a way that she just whines that she is confused. Does that make sense? Is there any math program that will explain similar types of concepual material, mental math tricks, etc, without asking her to try and figure out why it works that way just from looking at a bunch of problems? Or am I looking for something that doesn't really exist?