Ha, I saw the "dichotomy between rote drill and fluid learning" and thought that I had inadvertently posted it. "What was I thinking?" Then I realized that no, that wasn't me.:D Here too rote drill doesn't work. I think if you have a child who learns that way though it can be a false dichotomy. It all depends on if a child can digest information in that way. There is nothing wrong with rote if it is useful for your child. It's just that for some kids rote information just bounces off. It doesn't stick and so it's a complete waste of time. You can try but they won't learn.

I am going to delete this until I drink coffee.

I'd like to address this with the caveat that my child is likely a bit different than the others. For one I have a hard time seeing him as VSL (though he is DEFINITELY not sequential). He just isn't visual at all, not one wee bit. He is dyslexic though. This runs in families and I think is a good example of whether one can't do something one way or just prefers not to. I teach both of my kids O-G spelling. Dyslexia runs in my husband's family and no one was remediated for dyslexia. They all survived and many went on to higher education. However they still can't spell or read phonetically. My son can. So I think I can be pretty comfortable saying "no" he can't learn the same way as other children. But that said he actually does study in a more traditional way now. He reads textbooks (currently "Worlds Together Worlds Apart" and "The Cosmos") and writes the chapter assignments. He is academically motivated and he knows he needs to be able to write well to go to college. His ideas are bigger than his writing capacity so essays have been a struggle. We tried WTM style writing and it didn't stick and then I had a bio text with some long answer questions. I thought "this kid needs to write". So I showed him the book and said "how about trying these?". It's become a habit, when he's done with his 2 hours of math he reads and writes, pages and pages. I think when you are talking about whether a learning style is a preference or an absolute, it comes down to how strongly you want to give your child the best education possible. I could have forced my child to fit into a certain educational mold. It would have made him unhappy and he would not be nearly as educated as he his today. I also think that being flexible with my child when he was small, has made him more flexible now that he is more mature. I see two reasons. First, he actually has the skills to do the things I am asking him to do. Second, I am modeling flexibility for him. I can't say this would work for every child but that's how it has played out here. It's one of the reasons why I didn't chime in to the rigor vs. flexibility threads. I see this as a false dichotomy. Here in my home we adopt a certain amount of flexibility in order to pursue educational excellence. It's not an and/or question it's more a question of sequence, which will we do first.

What a fantastic question! I have a couple of ideas. Of course oral exams would be great. In lieu of this allowing more time for a student to process questions and perhaps having office hours so that they can discuss these ideas with you before they attempt to get their ideas on paper would help some of these students. My child may be different from the others but he has been able to overcome difficulties in getting his thoughts down on paper, especially in areas where his passion lies. However, it is helpful for him to be able to talk things through before he writes them down and he almost always takes a long time to organize his thoughts in a way that other people might understand his process. Writing down one's thoughts is a bit different from learning a systematic procedure to arrive at a non intuitive solution though. I very much see the value in the first. And while I do see why it might be important to be able to understand systematic procedures, I am not sure it is as important that all students use these to find their path. Of course I don't have the physics background to really judge what might be important to a physicist. However I have an intuitive feeling that nontraditional thinking might have its place. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this though. I think 8fill is right, our kids do need to learn to manage. Still there is a difference between accommodating and enabling. When a child can't see you give them glasses but you don't read everything for them. Sometimes doing a bit extra for alternative learners (or special needs kids) is like giving them glasses but it is possible to go overboard and never give them the tools that they need to manage on their own. I find it a bit of a balancing act. I am sure at times I err in one direction or the other. But I think she would probably agree since she had a list of appropriate accommodations handy.

wow, cool, thanks. I wonder if they'll put the lectures on OCW.

I think it is a matter of degree. Certainly people memorize things better when there is meaning involved. And I don't think it is good to teach without meaning. However I have seen kids who have minimal understanding in math classes cope fairly well. Some even get As. My son is the type of kid who will need to study Analysis before Calculus. I think I might have been misleading with my statement about his inability to memorize that which he doesn't understand. It's more that he has a need to derive it himself. He totally understands the carrying algorithm at this point. He just doesn't understand why people think it's easier than doing it his way. (I am putting words in his mouth here, but I think he'd agree.) The addition algorithm is pretty simple. But what about long division? Sure kids might have an intuitive understanding of how it works. But can they prove it? How about the quadratic formula? Same thing. He really needs to be able to prove it mathematically. On his own. It was always my experience in math class that a teacher would write out the derivation of these things but fellow students weren't necessarily able to recreate it on their own. At least not most of them. It's not just that he understands it better that way. Either he understands things completely or not at all. He is somewhat of an on off switch in this way. And like the addition algorithm understanding a conventional method and having an affinity to it are two different things. I remember him wanting to switch the names for the X and Y access (he was very small). I drew the line here "no son of mine is going to call the x axis the y axis":lol: After some hot debate he finally gave in. I have had to teach him to be flexible enough in his thinking to deal with the fact that there are certain ways that people do things and sometimes you have to "do what the Romans do." I always call my son "the canary in the coal mine" because he is the one that is most sensitive to bad teaching. It's not that other students don't suffer from this as well but he is almost always the one who reacts to it first. He is kind of way over my head at this point. But to travel back in time to when I was still a few steps ahead of him. If he didn't understand a concept he would not be able to articulate why it didn't make sense. As a matter of fact he is not always able to articulate things he doesn't understand. He has a great library of information in his head. He understands it deeply. And yet expressive language is pretty low. We work on this. You mention bases and he loved thinking in this way. I am pretty sure he used the same strategies to work with other bases that he used with base 10. This was a high interest activity for him. He never had an interest in manipulatives. Instead of seeing things from the concrete to the abstract his arrow goes the other way. I am not sure why this is. But it seems that he takes information in by abstracting it first. I actually don't do much anymore to adapt for my son's unique learning style. Homeschooling is the biggest adaptation. We can discuss things all the time and this helps him learn almost everything. But this is something that many of us do. When he was little I encouraged his unique way of thinking while making sure he understood the way other people think (or at least the more traditional ways of doing things). And I made sure to give him work that didn't have too many rote and tedious calculations. He didn't have to memorize his times tables before algebra. I let him learn fractions before long division. I kind of went with the flow and let him work on concepts when he was ready not when the books said to.

It wasn't all that bad really. I called her on it and held my ground. And after the meeting got a pleasant email telling me that everyone agreed I was a great mom (I think they were impressed at how well I kept my cool). I was pretty surprised as I was almost positive I came across as arrogant. Maybe I scared them. The upside of this story is that it gave me the confidence to trust my instincts. For awhile when my son was young I wanted so much to get help. This meeting was pretty much a turning point for me. I realized that I was (and had to be) the expert on my son and that I really had no other choice than to take the "bull by it's horns" and figure things out on my own.

When my son was in first grade he was able to do amazing mathematical things and yet fell apart with standard algorithms. He would multiply three digit numbers by six by multiplying by two and then by three. For sevens he would multiply by two and multiply by 5 and add them together. He figured this out on his own. And yet he was unable to memorize times tables or deal with the carrying algorithm. Essentially he has zero ability to memorize anything unless he understands it completely first. This said he has an almost perfect auditory memory of things he does understand so he has a pretty encyclopedic memory of history etc. My son's issues are pretty classic gifted dyslexic issues. There is a great movie online somewhere called "The Mathematician Who Can't Add" about an astrophysicist/ mathematician and the paradox between what her brain can and can't do. The thing though is when you are talking about "out of the box" kids, I would think that you'd get wild variation. I imagine that there are a million other different types of kids for whom traditional education would be a disaster. A more recent example was during star testing this year (we HS through a charter). During the test my son was turning all colors of red almost on the verge of tears. I later found out it was a probability problem where they gave the problem and then proceeded to give you the formula to solve it. He was irate. They had taken every last bit of joy out of math. No excitement of solving a puzzle just "here's the formula and plug in the numbers". It bruised his soul. Most kids wouldn't have noticed, or cared. Or perhaps would have agreed with him but taken it with a grain of salt. My son was devastated. In a way this is one of the reason's a participate in the charade of STAR testing. You wind up dealing with this kind of frustration throughout life. I figure my son should have some experience with it before I send him out into the world on his own. So sure. Many smart kids can think outside of the box and still be able to function inside of the box but I think for some it takes an enormous amount of effort to do so. It's not always easy, and sometimes not even possible. Or it might take years of practice. Parenting a kid like this is a great balancing act. On the one hand you work hard to find ways to nurture your child's ability and to allow them opportunities to pursue their natural path. On the other hand even out of the box kids eventually have to deal with day to day life. I find it important to help my child manage. But the balance between these two is critical. In the second grade I told an educator about my son and his learning style. She essentially told me that if I didn't teach my son the standard mathematical algorithm that i would find him "dead on the side of the road" one day. Really, she said that. So, I understand how a parent of an oddball kid might be a bit on edge and wary of saying too much. You learn to kind of keep things to your self, smile and nod.

Like other people have said, I'd do trial and error first. I would take 8 pennies and tell my child that these are all animals. We know we have this 8 total. We also know that we have two more crocodiles than hippos. Now we have to figure out how many we have of each. Then I would take two pieces of colored paper and say lets put the hippos on the gray one and the crocodiles on the green one. Could we have 7 hippos and 1 crocodile? Why not? Let's try something else? What should we try? And just do it this way trial and error until the child figures out the answer. I would do this before I did the singapore bar diagrams. The reason I'd do it this way is it gives you a good idea of what your child knows already. It also gives them a chance to figure out the method on their own. If they do this they will have a better understanding of the bar diagrams which can help them solve increasingly abstract problems.

My son and I do the exact same thing (except we jog). It is the most valuable time of my homeschooling day. The less I know about the topic at hand the more he has to really work to explain to me what the heck he is talking about. I think this really helps his writing especially.

I think the amount of time varies from child to child. I spend 30-45 minutes with my children, 2-4 days a week. This is spelling and explicit instruction. I haven't paid attention to the amount of time we read. I use Barton. Winging it didn't work for me. One of my children didn't need the multisensory as much but he did need the scope and sequence of an O-G type program. My other child really needs the tiles.

I like it.:001_smile: I also use SOTW. SWB is more thorough but I like Gombrich's writing style better, so we use both.

One more thank you. I really needed to hear your positive comments. Just wanted to update you both that I heard from my son and he's healthy and happy and seems to be having a great time. I figured he would but the wait before camp seemed like that feeling when you have boarded a roller coaster and it hasn't started yet. Sometimes the wait is the worst part.

My gifted dyslexic 7th grader adores his Art Of Problem solving books. He went from liking math and being pretty good at it to finding his passion. I would strongly recommend AOPS to any gifted young mathematician. Your child would need to be a pretty good reader. Otherwise I think the program would be fine (if not superior) for a dyslexic learner. One aspect of my son's dyslexia is he can't memorize rote steps. The fact that in AOPS everything is taught at such a deep level really helps him understand concepts. For example they PROVE the quadratic formula. They don't just show it. The other really great thing in AOPS is that the problems are written so well that DS doesn't get bogged down in computational drudgery.

Thanks, no specific questions yet. Just general anxiety. I know in my gut that I will love it and have a great time. Still it is a major milestone sending a child away for such a long time and to a place so far away. (breathe in, breathe out)

Oh thank you, thank you, thank you! That's exactly what I wanted to hear.

Anyone else have kids going to mathpath this year? My son is leaving on Sunday and I am getting the "oh my goodness I am putting my child on an airplane to travel across the country for a month" jitters. It's his first time at math camp. (but more important MY first time sending a child away for such a long time/distance). Any rave review about how wonderful the camp is are welcome. My son is thrilled and excited. But me, I am just trying to pretend not to be anxious. Gosh parenting is not for the feint of heart.

I think that's also known as "Good Neighbors". It is my favorite TV series ever.:001_smile:

Sharing Nature with children is an excellent book for inspiration. http://www.sharingnature.com/snwc1.html That book has ideas for organized nature activities. You are talking about being spontaneous. What works for me is to incorporate lots of play time into the day. And walks. Waldorf isn't really very spontaneous. I have worked in a Waldorf school. They are all about order and routine. I also love the natural materials, art and storytelling of Waldorf classrooms but I am not so into their pedagogy. I am also a fan of direct instruction and not so big on delaying academics (which is very important to pure waldorf people). Charlotte Mason is a great suggestion. Also Enki. That's a blend of Montessori and Waldorf. I have never been able to justify the expense of it though. What works for me is to leave lots of down time and things like nature and music just find their way into our routine. I am fortunate to live in nature and have kids who are into free play and looking for critters and such. You might need to be more scheduled about it. What is your backyard like? Even in town you can plant a garden and set up habitat for critters. I grew up in the city and I remember exploring my front yard like a regular naturalist. Also look for good nature walks by your house. Get one of those magnifying eyepieces for each of your kids and let them look at things up close. Collect cool things. Learn the names of the plants and the birds in your area. Have a scavenger hunt. Get binoculars and look at birds. Oh I almost forgot about this wonderful free resource http://www.cnps.org/cnps/education/curriculum/index.php It's called "Opening up the world through nature journaling" It has some cool ideas for helping kids set up a nature journal. Have fun.

There are many different ways to go about it. Rather than waiting until everything is all planned out you could plan one subject at a time. I'd start with something that I am not doing well like spelling or writing. Work on getting that down. Keep doing the things that are going well. After about 6 months reassess and add or edit as needed. That's how I do it but I am comfortable with minor disorder. It really is much harder to keep things organized and rolling at home than in the outside world. I think it has to do with the 24/7 nature of our work. Oh yeah and bookshelves. Definitely more bookshelves;)

It makes me so happy that you guys are here talking about this. I have no experience with the eimacs classes but DS is finishing up book 2. He pretty much works alone. I helped a bit with book 1 but he seems to be fine on his own. He's doing AOPS Geometry and elements Book 2 now. I like having both because I am 100% sure he is able to learn from the AOPS books and the elements books have that extra mathematician thingy that he craves. He loves both and would be very sad to have to give up either.

My son said those exact words to me. Verbatim. My guy is quite mathy and, it turns out, dyslexic. He still doesn't think in standard algorithms but he does know what they are. He just doesn't understand why people think it is easier to do math that way At the time I just let him work around things like column multiplication and long division until he was ready. That mean't actually skipping chunks of the book and going to the next book and then back tracking. And doing other mathy puzzles and whatnot that I could dig up for him. I didn't know about MEP at the time but that might be a good place to live for awhile because they set you up to be comfortable with standard algorithms without teaching them explicitly.

Hi you have gotten great suggestions already. I am a big Feierabend fan. Here are some demonstration lessons to check out. Early childhood music is such an art. http://www.faculty.sfasu.edu/turnermark1/acece/videos.html

Put a handful of almonds in the blender. Blend. Add a bit of water. Blend again. Add a banana. Blend Add frozen fruit. Whatever you like. We like a mixture of mangoes and berries. Blend and add water if needed. Good luck on your smoothies.

Hi, I teach music and I usually recommend that students stick with an instrument for a year before they switch or add an instrument. It's not a hard and fast rule though. Many beginners have "the grass is greener" syndrome. But at the same time many students do piano and a wind instrument. They complement each other. My large 6 year old daughter is almost large enough to hold a flute properly. I let her play around with it. In the beginning you can (and should) do a lot of work on just the head joint. Piano is great because you can play satisfying music alone. Wind instruments are great because they are usually played in groups and kids learn all sorts of teamwork skills. Schools wait to start until 4th or 5th grade because kids have such uneven fine motor development. Also size is an issue (especially for trombone and clarinet) and having permanent front teeth is nice (and essential for some instruments like clarinet and trumpet). Has he tried to get a sound on the flute? Some kids can do this right away and others take a while. You might want to take him to a music store (if they give demonstrations). If it were me I'd try to get him to stick with the piano awhile before he switches but if he was willing to do both I might consider that. Maybe have him finish the year on piano and then switch. Or you could get a flute and give him a lesson or two and let him play around with it for the year (good used flutes can be very affordable) while he finished his year of piano lessons. Just some ideas.