I think some of what you are describing is teenage boy normal. I have been really struggling with my 15ds not wanting my help with anything. He would rather get the problems wrong than let me help. I chalk it up to me being in charge of every single aspect of his life, so it is normal to get a little rebellion. It helps that I talked about it with a friend IRL who went through the same thing and had many people tell her it was normal. So I have handed off a lot of his education, which makes me sad. He is taking a BW online class for writing, VHSG online class for lit, VHSG Chemistry with lab at the local college through our homeschool group, Spanish and Theater with our homeschool group. He is finishing Kinetic Algebra and then will start TT Geometry. He is doing his history, logic (w/dvd), Bible, grammar, and vocab with me, but they are really independent subjects for him. The plan is to sit down once a week and discuss the Bible and history, but I'm having trouble keeping up with the reading right now! Hopefully we'll start that soon. I have found that once my kids reach formal science (7th grade or so), they need a lecture and do better in group settings. I don't know why, maybe it is the competition, or they are just tired of me? :D We are also having issues with sloppy, juvenile work. He has known what he wants to do and what kind of college he wants to go to for a few years now, so it helps to remind him that he is never going to reach those goals if he keeps working like that. I've also had the "principal" step in and give him a good talking to. It is something that he just has to be reminded of on a regular basis, though.

I agree about the learning challenges-does he only have 2 credits because of academic problems, behavioral problems, emotional, etc? It's hard to know where to start if you don't know why he is so behind. First, your friend needs to look at the local public school and get a feel for what they require for graduation. Is he college bound? tech school? Future plans will make a huge difference in how she approaches his education. If he wants to go to college, look at the ones he is interested in and see what they require. Teaching Textbooks would probably be a great math for him since he can do it himself. The virtualhomeschoolgroup has online, free, at-your-own pace Apologia sciences. She may be able to get him into some other classes in the spring, but they fill so quickly. I think the Notgrass history books are pretty open and go, and they include literature. At this point he doesn't have to have grammar and spelling unless he needs remedial help in those areas. For writing, my son is enjoying KWI from Bravewriter online classes. It is expensive (about $230 for a 9 week class) but worth it so I don't have to battle him in this area. Her classes are in 9 week sessions, so he could easily take at least 3 in a school year. She has Kid's Write Basic, if he needs remedial help; Kid's Write Intermediate (this is the one my 15ds is taking); an essay class, and others I can't remember. He will need foreign language to graduate. Is there a homeschool coop or anything nearby where she might be able to farm this out? I know a lot of people use Rosetta Stone, but it is expensive. She will probably want to either hire someone via a homeschool group or tutor, or use a dvd or online/cdrom program. BBC has some cool resources. My two oldest are really loving this, Mi Vida Loca. Our library system also has a free online foreign language program, Mango, and I know some states have Rosetta Stone free. It may be easier for him to work on the basics during the school year and try to get some electives in during the summer. It just depends on his abilities/attitudes/motivation. He might also be a good candidate for College Plus, if he is motivated to catch up. And if there is a local community college or 2-year college, he may be able to go there. Each semester would equal a year of high school class-so he could get Biology and Chemistry done in one year. But if he has learning disabilities that will probably not work.

SWB says no:0) Her lecture is great!! We never used a lit program until 9th (SMARR) and we are back to a more relaxed approach this year (10th). My son went from being an avid reader to barely picking up a book. Not saying it was all because of the SMARR program, but reading became a whole lot of work and he lost the joy of it. We are using Windows to the World, which I love so far because it uses short stories and you don't have to keep stopping and chopping up a book that you are in to. Before 9th, we just do simple summaries with title, author, genre, main characters, plot summary, and opinion. And not on every book.

These are some of the best books we have ever read (me, 12dd, 15ds). It is a Christian series but not preachy-the main character just sets a great example. Beware of a couple of torture scenes that may be somewhat graphic-it is a spy novel, after all:0) http://www.amazon.com/Long-Way-Home-Homelanders/dp/1595547134/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1315617812&sr=8-3 My dd (and ds) have also really enjoyed the Ranger's Apprentice series, and my son discovered several authors he really liked while reading from the 8th grade list in WTM. Agatha Christie, in particular. My daughter also really loves the Royal Diaries books: http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1_9?field-keywords=royal+diaries+series&url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&sprefix=royal+dia She also really likes Gail Carson Levine (author of Ella Enchanted) and E. D. Baker-fairytale type books, with a twist. I have not read those, though, and I'm pretty sure there is some romance but not in the style of more modern fiction. Just fairytale stuff.

My big lesson I have learned so far? I had my English all beautifully laid out with a dandy little syllabus complete with weekly assignments, and I have ditched almost all of it in the first 4 weeks!! It just was not working. I quickly realized that my 15ds needs to be accountable to others for some things, or else I will have to punish him every day for sloppy, juvenile work that makes no sense. He does a great job of writing for others (has done outside classes for 8th and 9th with A's in both), but just seems lazy about it for me. So he is now enrolled in online Bravewriter class for 9 weeks, then we'll see. All this to say, you may just have to start before you really know. What is too much for others may be just right or even not enough for your ds. I spent so much time planning this summer, and boy am I glad it is all on the computer so it is easily adjusted! It has been a rocky start and we are still feeling our way around in a few subjects-I have two Chemistry books on hand and just ordered another one, plus I'm trying to find the TC dvds for a good price! I just read an eye-opening reply in another thread, about how the goal is finding the curriculum that is the best fit for your student, and not necessarily what is considered the best curriculum. And the only way to do that is trial and error. If it helps to know what others are doing, this is what I am expecting my son to accomplish, but we'll see how it goes: *He is doing a Chemistry lab with our HS group and will learn how to write a good lab report. *He writes summaries for every chapter of HoMW, and will hopefully do an essay every month or so. *He is taking online LOTR class with VHSG-not sure how much writing will be in this. (1 semester class) *Will work through Windows to the World (doing this before and after the LOTR class, but not during-class starts in two weeks so I hope to have annotation down cold before he starts, then we'll pick it back up in January) *Will write about 5 Great Books, and 4-5 other pieces of literature. I'm hoping to combine the lit with WttW, but I'm not sure how it will work. *Taking BW Kids Write Intermediate class right now (9 weeks long) *He is using the grammar portion of Grammar for Writing, and has to revise a paragraph weekly. This is not original writing so I don't really count it, but it does help him with learning sentence combining, interesting word choice, etc. *He needs to work on outlining, but I'm not sure where I'm going to fill that in. I also want him to watch the IEW High School Essay Intensive at some point to get ready for the SAT. The original plan was to have that format for the history essays, but everything is a bit up in the air now. Hope this helps.

:grouphug: I deal with the same types of issues with my son. I wonder sometimes if he would be better off in school. He does take some outside classes and always takes them seriously and makes straight A's. But the work he turns in to me way too often looks like his 9 year old cousin did it!! And I'm not just talking about sloppy handwriting, but about the total lack of thought and seriousness that went into it. I keep lecturing him about how he is going to need these skills for college but it just doesn't seem to mean anything coming from me. I think for 11th and 12th we will probably do mostly online, coop, and local college classes. I have 3 younger ones that need me too, and I just can't keep doing this with him (can you read my frustration?). If he was a poor student all the way around it would be different, but it just seems to be with the subjects that I am in charge of. Sorry I don't have any solutions, but maybe it will help knowing you are not alone :grouphug:

My kids all have homework on the weekends if they don't get it done during the week. We have classes on Tues and Friday, but later in the afternoon so they can usually get done before then. However, twice a month we have all day (9-4) coop with clubs and such, so they have to do work on Saturdays then. ETA: I just saw your reply about Saturdays. My oldest son also gets up very early on coop days and is often working by 6:30. Perhaps that would work? Or Sundays. I would give him a couple of options, like do 2 lessons on non-coop day, get up early, or do it on the weekends. Let him know he has to do 5 lessons a week and that is non-negotiable. Unless you are ok with working through the summer. For us, that never seems to happen because of camps and vacations and general laziness!!

Most of the resources we are using could be done in a semester. Windows to the World for literature, Lively Art of Writing, and Vocabulary from Classical Roots.

My son had no problem with the ancients in 9th, except maybe the Aenid (he hated that book!). I have been told by English professors that it is good to study Ancients first not only for chronology, but also because so much literature references/mirrors ancient works and it helps to know what they are talking about:0)

there is a girl in our hs group who is awkward in this way. I have not been around her much but my son has told me some stories. I tend to think she has some mental disabilities. Perhaps this could be the issue as well? That would probably also explain the short school day.

Good grief, why do they have to make it so hard? It all seemed so simple when I graduated! I had planned to put a weighted and unweighted gpa on his transcript, with each noted as such. Now I wonder why bother? So do they take every applicant and redo their gpa or just the ones they are initially interested in? Just wondering if the honors classes/weighted gpa would at least help get a foot in the door.

I agree. I have other children that are gifted in other areas. One is very gifted athletically, and will not be able to handle the reading load that my oldest is doing now. He will not be doing what I will call honors work, but will still be getting a good classical education, and his course titles and descriptions will reflect that. I really want to fight "the system" and not worry about things like honors, AP, SAT II, etc, but I am coming to realize that for my son to meet his goals we are going to have to play the game :glare: And about my previous post-I went back to check the school website, and they do not require honors or AP but lead you to believe they are needed to be accepted (by the avg. gpa if nothing else-you have to take honors or AP to get above 4.0, right?). Some of the numbers have changed since I looked at it last- Admission to Florida State University is competitive. It requires graduation from a regionally accredited high school with certain high school academic units, a cumulative grade point average (GPA) in those academic units, and test scores. Satisfying these minimum requirements does not guarantee admission. The academic profile of the middle 50 percent of freshmen accepted in 2011 was: 3.6-4.2 academic GPA; 25-29 ACT composite; 1730-1960 SAT total. A variety of other factors are also considered in the review process; these include the written essay, the rigor and quality of courses and curriculum, grade trends, class rank, and educational objectives. This is for everyone, not just homeschoolers. If I remember correctly, the only additional requirement for hsers was a list of class descriptions with texts and methods of evaluation. Most of the colleges he has looked at stress a desire to see rigorous academic courses, which I interpret to mean honors, advanced, or AP. They don't say they require them, just that they want to see them. At this point I am more concerned with scholarships than admission, so I'm hoping the more difficult courses will give him an edge.

The son my college is looking at says that most accepted applicants have a 3.8 (I think) to 4.5 GPA. They specifically say they want to see honors and AP courses on the transcript. I am making sure that anything that I mark as honors is at least equal to school honors courses. There are tons of syllabi out there to look at for comparison. While our academics may mirror a lot of public/private schools because of the labels of our courses, I am counting on my sons wide range of outside activities to set him apart. He is active in Key Club, Omicron Delta HOnor Society, Debate, theater group, will attend Teen Pact, is working on the Congressional Award, etc.

These are two different classes. He is using LLfLOTR with grammar, vocab, Lively Art of Writing, and Rulebook for Arguments for his English class. Here are the books he is reading with LLfLOTR: The Fellowship of the Ring The Two Towers The Return of the King Sir Gawain and the Green Knight Beowulf Canterbury Tales (selections) The Tempest The Once and Future King If we have time, he'll also read Ivanhoe and Black Arrow. I'm also trying to work in Windows to the World and High School Essay Intensive. For history, he is using HoMW with A Short History of the Middle Ages, The New Concise History of the Crusades, and the following books to be studied ala WTM Great Books: The Ecclesiastical History of the English People by Bede (731) (3 weeks) Inferno by Dante (1320) (4 weeks) Everyman (14th Century) (3 weeks) The Book of Margery Kempe by Margery Kempe (1430) (4 weeks) Education of a Christian Prince by Erasmus (selections) (1510) (4 weeks) The Prince by Michiavelli (1513) (4 weeks) Utopia by Thomas More (1516) (3 weeks) Commentary on Galatians by Martin Luther (c. 1520) (3 weeks) Institutes of the Christian Religion by John Calvin (selections) (1536) (6 weeks) He is also using the City of God set by Memoria Press as part of his Bible studies. It is a lot, but I think he can handle it. He loves to read and loves history and loves Lord of the Rings!

We are using SWB's HoMW for 10th. I have added the last few chapters of A Short History of the Middle Ages and the New Concise History of the Crusades to get us up to 1500. I found these books while drooling at the Potter's School Middle Ages/Renn class. You could easily use them without SWB's book. The MA book has a website with discussion questions, and there are a few discussion questions for each chapter in the back of the Crusades book. The author of the MA book, Barbara Rosenwein, also has a book of primary sources to go along with it. You can find these pretty inexpensively at amazon. I can send you our syllabus if you would like to see how I scheduled it out.

We will be using LLfLOTR with SWB's History of the Medieval World and supplements for my 10th grade son this fall.

Hi Jeanine I created a notebook page for my son to use when he is reading from HoMW. It is pretty simple-3 text boxes, one for important dates, important people, important events. The other quarter of the page is labeled "Around the World" and is for other events happening now in that geographical area or during that time period but in other parts of the world-whatever catches his eye that he thinks is cool :D Once a month he will write an essay as described in WTM. The idea is to have the notebook pages handy so he can look back at them for ideas for his essay. We will also hit the coffee shop once a week, probably on Sat or Sun afternoon, and have a discussion. He will also do a research paper at the end of the year. If it will help to see what others are doing, I can email you the syllabii that I have for HoAW and HoMW. I feel like I probably did not do enough for history for 9th, but his literature was very challenging. For 10th we are definitely stepping it up.

I agree that the rigor of Chalkdust exceeds TT, but what I am coming to realize is that it's ok for my son (also lit and history oriented) to use less rigorous math programs. He has no desire to do anything in life that requires math-meaning career-and the rigorous programs that we have tried just confused him and ended up being wasted years. Something more simply explained and on level would have helped him get farther and understand math better.

We love geography projects! Our homeschool group hosts International Day every year. Some of the things we have done...mini dvd player or laptop with continuous playing dvd of the country from library or power point presentation, food samples (bowl of Swiss chocolates, tray of mini scones, etc), samples of currency if you can find them. We always have books from the library or travel guides laying on the table in front of the board also. When we did China we had a real gold fish and a bonsai tree. You can also use Barbies dressed in native costume, stuffed animals (we had a panda for China, kangaroo for Australia, etc). Calendars are a great way to get beautiful pictures on the cheap. We try to make our boards as 3D as possible to make them more interesting! We've also used beautiful fabric that relates to the country as a table cloth under the board. Have fun!!!

If it makes you feel any better, this is more than my son did for history last year. He had a very tough literature class with lots of papers, so I went a little easy for history. We also used HoAW. He basically read a chapter and either outlined, summarized, or filled out a notebook page from History Scholar. He also read Josephus along side it, and still has to finish Tacitus Annals of Imperial Rome-he will write a WEM/WTM Great Books summary of it when he gets home from camp. I am stepping it up a bit for HoMA this year (10th grade). I think what you have planned looks great.

We are going to use the Prentice Hall book and Kolbe syllabus. It has a regular schedule and an Honors schedule. My son has used Apologia for General, Physical, and Biology, and he was ready for a change. He does not like the Apologia books. Oak Meadow also has a syllabus for this book. I got the text on Amazon, used, for about $25. I have not read through it thoroughly, but the what I read seems more engaging and it is more colorful.

this is exactly what I am doing also.

Bumping:0) the one on the website is the only one I have seen, but I would love to see another one as we will using this in year or two.

For scheduling, I make up syllabi for classes I create that are broken down into weekly assignments. He figures out on his own how much to do each day (has been doing this for a couple of years). Other stuff is mainly open and go, so I just tape a piece of paper to the cover of the book with generic instructions like "MOnday: read lesson and make flashcards; Tues: exercise 1 & 2; Wed: exercise 3 & drill flashcards..." He has a weekly checklist with boxes just to check off that he did it and for me to add any notes like we have a field trip on Friday or whatever. I bought the Well Guided High School Planner, but I'm still trying to figure out how to make it work for us. It may be more of a record for me to write down what all we did at the end of the year. We usually are based in the dining room but the 4 year old has been such a distraction that my son wants to have his room as his base. The books I have to read also are in the dining room still, but he has a crate to take stuff that I have to grade back and forth and he has reference books that only he will need in his room. Not the best situation, but it works for now. I think going from daily to weekly assignments is an extremely beneficial skill that they have to learn before college, so the sooner the better. We started small with just the outside classes he was taking. This year everything I give him will be assigned weekly, except math which is do the next thing (Teaching TExtbook or Kinetic). I am finding that making up a syllabus forces me to get organized with what all I want him to do, and I can just make any needed changes at the end of the year(like books we didn't get to or writing assignments that were more difficult than anticipated) and print a fresh copy for his records.

I think I would be hesitant to do TOG if you are at a time in your life where things are hectic and your time is scarce. We had a difficult time even with the dialectic stage. So many library books, and the questions really demand a lot of thinking and the answers don't just jump out at you. Have you considered an online course? I am always drooling over the history courses at Potters School. I think there are several online virtual coops for TOG. Perhaps that would work? I'm not sure how much that would cut down on your involvement, but it might be worth a try. Lastly, my son is really enjoying SWB's high school/adult books. He has always loved history and gives the HoAW two thumbs up;) He loves the way it goes so in depth and he is learning stuff he didn't already know. It is not dry at all and the writing style is like SOTW but more mature, if that makes sense.