The author of EIL suggests working through The Elegant Essay and Windows to the World, both from IEW, as prep for her curriculum. They would also be good prep for SWB's high school writing. Btw, there is some overlap with EIL and SWB lit papers. They just use different names or format (specific in the case of EIL) EIL - author, SWB - biographical EIL - historical approach, SWB - historical EIL - lit analysis (prompts included), SWB - response Following EIL would be enough with the 1-page science or history papers added to the mix. If your daughter likes it and you own it, go with it for year. Then, you could do a few years with SWB's suggestions for the lit writing.

No, the research paper is not rhetoric. The research paper is a long paper (length and number in my other post) written on a topic of interest. SWB suggests the resource "Writing Great Research Papers." The research paper(s) are written in the spring. Rhetoric is the study of advanced writing tools and presentation (simple definition). SWB suggests several resources, but Memoria Press has a rhetoric course. The student does not study rhetoric until they have a good writing foundation, either from SWB's logic writing suggestions or another resource; i.e. Writing Strands, Rod & Staff. The MP rhetoric could be done the senior year. Literature writing for high school consists of four types of papers. The response paper is one of those types. Here is a sample month: Week 1 Monday - 1-page biographical lit paper + 1/2 hour study of lit terms Tuesday - 1-page persuasive science paper Wednesday - Friday - Rhetoric study if student is ready. If not, use writing curriculum. Week 2 Monday - 1-page formal lit paper + 1/2 hour study of literature terms Tuesday - 1-page history paper Wednesday - Friday - Rhetoric study if student is ready. If not, use writing curriculum. Week 3 Monday - 1-page response lit paper + 1/2 hour study of literature terms Tuesday - 1-page science paper Wednesday - Friday - Rhetoric study if student is ready. If not, use writing curriculum. Week 4 Monday - historical lit paper + 1/2 hour study of literature terms Tuesday - 1-page persuasive history paper + 1/2 hour study of literature terms Wednesday - Friday - Rhetoric study if student is ready. If not, use writing curriculum. Continue with this through the fall. Rotate the four types of lit papers. No book reports for high school. In the spring, they will continue with this writing and add the research paper. Some students may not be able to handle the daily writing and the research work.

Ditto on Saxon in our house. After the Advanced Math was completed, ACT science scores jumped up, and AG brought up the ACT English many points.

I agree. SWB's instructions for outlining are worth the price of the book. We started working on outlining, and it did not go well until I remembered the instructions. Duh! Answering the questions did the trick.

If it makes you feel better, your children will need to be adept with textbook learning if they go to college. They might have two textbooks per class, including massive anthologies, and will be responsible for the concepts/terms/events/people in those textbooks. They could be reading several hundred pages in a textbook on their study days. Some profs test only on lectures, but others clearly state that the student is responsible for the textbook.

As I understand the suggestions from the audio lectures on high school writing and literature, writing consists of the following: 1. Study of rhetoric, 2-3 hours per week (assumes completion of writing program) 2. Two 1-page persuasive papers per week in history or science or literature Literature options - formal (every three to four weeks) or biographical or historical or response 3. Research papers 2 in 9th grade, 4-8 pages 2 in 10th grade, 5-10 pages 1 in 11th grade, 12 - 15 pages 1 in 12th grade, 12 - 15 pages I read WTM, but I needed the audio lectures to understand the big picture. The suggestions are doable and practical. Two days per week, Monday and Tuesday, for example, write a 1-page persuasive paper on history or science or literature. That's a 1-page paper each day. If your student is able, study rhetoric three days per week; i.e. Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday if the 1-page papers are written on Monday and Tuesday. The goal is writing many short papers that formulate and defend a thesis statement. Even the history and science papers should have a thesis statement. In addition, the student should study literature terms using Essential Literary Terms: A Brief Norton Guide with Exercises. So, the schedule would look like this if you want to emphasize literature: Monday - history paper, Tuesday - literature paper with study of lit terms or Monday - science paper, Tuesday - literature paper with study of literature terms. Rhetoric on the other three days. Depending on the student's commitments and writing ability, you might need to suspend this writing during the late spring to work on the research paper(s). Perhaps you can use Excellence in Literature for the reading list, online research suggestions, and examples of papers. Use the SWB schedule for the actual writing.

I suggested defining terms as the first activity because every subject has its own terminology. We do this for grammar, science, etc. Also, you could structure the syllabus according to sub-topics for more continuity; i.e. water - definitions, questions, experiments, videos, visuals, writing assignments. I think it is important for older students to see the big picture and a beginning/end, especially with unit studies.

Also, you might want to consider a different format since you are dealing with an 8th grader and want to encourage independence. Even though he is working on new skills, he probably doesn't need a day-by-day break down. Tell him that he still be studying geology for the next "X" weeks. Then, him give a syllabus/packet similar to this: Terms to Define X Y Z Questions to Answer #1 #2 #3 Experiments Brief description of what you want him to do and the corresponding forms. Visuals with Criteria Sketch #1 Sketch #2 Movies Title or Topic Title or Topic Written Assignments Notes for discussion of topic #1 Notes for discussion of topic #2 Notes for discussion of movie X 3 1/2 page narrations on topics of your choice Outlines of pages 1-2 of book X Research report of at least 5 paragraphs on 1 topic of your choice Explain that you will be checking with him on a daily basis to see what he has accomplished and that you are available to help if needed. Give him a completion date for the entire unit. With a syllabus, he will have a clear picture of when the study begins and ends, but he can make choices about direction. He may decide to research the terms on one day and watch a movie. On another day, he might work on an outline and an experiment. He may not be ready to write a report until the end of the unit, and a 1-2 page report may take longer than four days depending on your requirements; i.e. using multiple sources, etc.

I try not to ditch anything after we have started (though we let go of RS math years ago) because it wastes dh's money, and it isn't good for dc. They like to finish what they have started, and I lose credibility with them. However, I don't hesitate to tweak the curriculum or adjust the schedule. For example, after listening to SWB's writing lectures, I realized that dd has significant gaps in foundational skills, so I am using her history for daily narrations. Since she will be starting high school next year, I am using her science to teach Cornell notetaking. Also, I added WWE to her English line up. We're working with the MP workbook for the ancient world, and she is doing a first level outline for the reading passage. Work on these skills doesn't add much time, and I have adjusted her English work to compensate. As mentioned in another post, enticing curriculum abounds, but you need to evaluate why you are changing. Does it really bring anything new to the table? Joyce Swann's children graduated from high school in their early teens, and she wrote that is was possible because she picked her curriculum and stuck with it. She wrote that education is from Point A to Point B. The constant search for something better can make the journey longer than necessary.

I would suggest purchasing SWB's audio lectures on writing for the elementary grades and her lit analysis lecture. Her suggestions are excellent. According to SWB and her mother, 4th grade students should focus on narration from science, history and literature, first level outlines, and grammar. The lectures give specific details about what to do. Btw, we are using WWE Level 3 with our 8th grader. We started with Level 4, but narration and dictation (at least how SWB does it) are new skills for dd, and it was frustrating. We dropped back, and dd is enjoying the work. I bought the workbook because I did not want to find my own passages. Level 3, which has a different format than Level 4, is helping me learn how to teach narrations, written and oral. We are using SWB's writing suggestions for the first time this year, so even though dd has used other writing curriculum, she needs work with writing narrations across the curriculum, outlining, dictation, and grammar skills. WWE is just one component of dd's English work, but it's beneficial, and I am glad that we found it. I wouldn't hesitate to use WWE or any of Susan's other writing suggestions with older students. We used several writing approaches during our homeschooling years, and our children often struggled. I didn't understand the reason until listening to SWB's lectures. Many writing programs have the children writing reports and essays before they have foundational skills, but I didn't know how to fill the gaps until I listened to Susan's lectures. If you follow SWB's writing suggestions as described on the lectures and in WTM, your children will develop the following skills: the ability to "hold words in their heads" through dictation, to outline the writing of other people and write from that outline, to write 1/2 to 1 page narrations of information they have read, and to write short literature "essays" from a list of questions. Add in writing exercises from Rod and Staff or another resource of your choice if you want, and your children will be well-prepared for high school. I would like do-overs with our other children.

Could someone tell me how to email the forum administrator? Thank you. Bonita

Pam, Thank you for taking the time to reply. What you describe is what I would do if we use the WTM history rotation. However, I would like to know if anyone has gone the WTM route for history and science and had trouble; i.e. colleges that want to see a textbook with grades. It seems that many families on the WTM boards follow a 4-year cycle during the years prior to high school, but most switch to traditional subjects during the high school years except for literature. Bonita

Since joining the forum, I have read dozens of posts, asked questions (thank you for the responses), and looked at many curriculum options. I realize that using SWB's four-year history cycle will provide enough credits for history and literature, but I would like to know if anyone has had difficulty with college admissions using non-traditional materials/ approaches? We are facing a move because of dh's job (company closing), and while we are hoping to hear about a transfer to a nearby state before dd starts high school next year, we may be moving during her sophomore year. I don't want to start something that will cause problems down the road, but I also don't want to worry about something that isn't an issue. We graduated two sons from our homeschool. One went into the Navy, and they accepted his homeschool transcript without question because of his ASVAB and ACT scores. We used a literaure approach for most of his history, and his reviewing officer made a point of complimenting dh on our son's reading list/education. Our oldest son was admitted to a state university without any problems, also because of his ACT scores. In fact, in our state, only one private university puts up roadblocks for homeschooled students. They require three SAT 1 tests. I have checked with universities in neighboring states, and they all accept a homeschool transcript. However, we don't know if the transfer will come through, so we could be moving anywhere. I would appreciate input from those of you who have dealt with the admission process at more selective schools. Bonita

There are many different ways to take notes ;i.e. mind mapping, outlining, and bullets. Some students try to write everything. We use Cornell style in our home. It's flexible and organized. Just type in Cornell notetaking. I found one website that compared different styles. Bonita

Glad to hear this got resolved. I have looked at their materials and even your first series of posts made me leary. Bonita

I sent you a PM. Bonita

I am so glad that you liked the class. I felt certain that would be case. Yes, I bought the teacher's materials. I needed them as we got deeper into the program. I attended the first few classes, but after that, our daughter went solo. On occasion, I watched the recorded sessions, but eventually I could work just with the teacher materials. The class only made it through the persuasive essay last year, so we will start our review with the persuasive essay using novels. Then, we might try an issue from history. After that, I plan to work through the comparison/contrast essay. I thought about choosing topics from history last year, but it worked better with novels since our daughter wasn't ready for research. DD's writing time varied from 30 minutes to 1 hour or more. With LTW I, the student only writes one essay every three weeks, and until you reach the complete essay, the writing may be light. However, the invention work can be time consuming and thought provoking. By the end of the course, the student uses a large packet of forms to generate ideas. Bonita

With the work you outlined, your daughter does not need the core units in IEW's TWSS. The options you own are good. Jensen's Format Writing and the exercises from Ignite Your Writing would work well together. If you want other suggestions, here are a two: Order Susan Wise Bauer's writing lectures ($3.99) each and her lit lecture ($3.99). Use SWB's disgnostic tools to discover gaps. If you address gaps in the learning process, her writing may take off. Writing Strands 4 and beyond Bonita

Janine, It might help your son to work on the issue of writing within time limits. Our son was a slow and methodical writer until he took Julie Bogart's class on timed writing. Ds learned that he could write a decent essay in 30 minutes. Of course, this wasn't a research essay with documentation, but he learned to quickly organize and get ideas on paper. Bonita

Katie, Do you have a link for the yahoo group? A friend loaned me an older edition of FAR, and I plan to buy it. Even if we don't use it as our main curriculum, though it covers everything including 4-year history cycle, FAR is a resource I want on the shelf. Bonita

We're on our third student with Saxon. Our sons worked through all the books. I have always scheduled one hour for math, and it is the first subject of the day. Our children work every problem, and as they become more fluent with math, their computational skills become accurate and quick. It doesn't matter whether they are working in 87 or calculus. The lessons take about one hour. On occasion, they complete a lesson in 45 minutes and sometimes a lesson takes over an hour, but one hour is the general time frame. When our student reach the junior high level, I generally schedule one hour for every subject. 5 subjects = give hours. If they finish earlier, they have more free time. If it takes longer, that's the real world. Bonita

You covered many issues in your post, but I wanted to offer encouragement and input on several. Technique is important, but your daughter is young. She will be working on her technique and intonation for many years. Our daughter had various problems (waving fingers for one) that she has now resolved. There are other problems she continues to address; i.e. seizing on vibrato and playing too far from the bridge. Violin is like writing -- many parts to the whole. Sometimes it's simply a matter of maturity and time, which apply also to reading music. Dd began with Suzuki, so she did not know how to read music. As her teachers incorporated other pieces to her repertoire, she learned to read music. In high school, she will need at least two years of piano and theory as prep for music ed degree, and she can refine her skills then. As regards orchestra, I think it's best to place your child with their age group. There is a social aspect to an orchestra and being the youngest isn't ideal. Also, if the orchestra repertoire is too much of a stretch, your daughter's personal growth on the instrument will suffer. If the pieces are easy, she can play first chair or work toward concert master. Finally, there is nothing wrong with going back to correct or improve. Dd worked on two major pieces year before last and performed them for rally, recital and a special concert. She wasn't satisfied with her work and bombed one of them at rally. Her new teacher decided that dd needed success with those pieces before moving on, so they worked many months on one of them, and dd played it beautifully at spring recital. Happy hearts all around! Now, dd is working on the other piece and will perform it for a November recital. In addition, dd is moving on to new and more complex pieces including a duet with a strapping high schooler. Dd is petite and will need to pull some sound to hold her own with this boy. Going back built the confidence she needed to move forward and tackle new challenges. Bonita

Our LTW work was the best part of homeschool last year. However, I encourage you to take the MP class. I worked with IEW for years, teaching our children and others, and I have taught/tutored writing with other materials as well, but I could not have done a good job with LTW going solo. Btw, your daughter will not have a bad experience with Camille Goldston. Camille is great with the students -- upbeat, positive, caring, relaxed. Dd is reviewing the persuasive essay from LTW I this year, and I feel confident that I can finish that level on my own. Level 2 is another story. We will probably take the MP class. Bonita

We've had poor teachers who do not know how to help students solve issues with their playing or develop performance strategies. Being a conductor or even an accomplished performer does not equal good teaching. A good teacher needs education in the pedagogy of violin; they need to be passionate about learning new techniques for teaching; and they need to be willing to play with and for the student, which is demanding. When a student finds someone like this, it changes them, and when you watch this type of teacher, it changes you as well. Bonita

Julie Bogart, Bravewriter, wrote an article about overplanning, and I love her advice -- plan the year and take out 1/3. Since there are so many excellent curriculum and we are enticed to try them all, her advice gets it about right. Bonita