Yes, we will probably do this. I already told her that in order to afford it, I'd have to be able to put the money I normally put towards her birthday and Christmas gifts toward the trip. She was perfectly fine with that! And yes, we've done something similar for our ds, and our extended family were great about that, so I'd expect they'd be great about helping dd go to the convention. Between gifts and her job and the money I could probably save between now and then, I think we could swing it and still only spend less than half of the money she'd be earning between now and then. So, right now, I'm waiting for my dh to adjust to the sticker shock of spending that much money for an event. ;) And making sure that we can absolutely do this, because this is going to require upfront payment without the chance for refunds!

I mean that as a sarcasm. Not that I believe that. In patriarchal circles, males are the highest authority (next to God, of course!) So, they are at the top of food chain, metaphorically speaking. There is no real authority to appeal to that isn't male. Additionally, men/boys are taught to watch out for slutty, whoring women. These women dress provocatively and act suggestively and try to entice young men into sin. So safety for boys is often taught around this, instead of common sense stuff that really should apply to both sexes. There are plenty of people in both sexes that are looking for ways to take advantage of people.

I interpreted the OP's post like this: How many other things are girls taught (to avoid being raped, because, you know, it's THEIR responsibility!) that should also be taught to boys out simple common sense safety, but since they're the ones that are at the top of the food chain, they don't have to worry about it.

Oooh! Pick me! I know the answer!! :P Because girls are taught that they have to control themselves and their surroundings to avoid rape. If they don't watch their drinks, and someone slips something into and later rapes them, then the girl's at fault for not watching her drink! It goes hand in hand with don't dress immodestly/provocatively or you're asking to be raped. Not everyone is taught it like this, but this is how these teachings tend to work in patriarchy.

I cannot like this enough, particularly the bolded!

I haven't caught up with all the replies yet, but this has been my experience as well, to some degree. Not as much the spiritually superior part, (though I have seen that, too) but being put on a pedestal. And the doublespeak about being equal, but the men are still the leaders, etc. Women are "vessels of honor" and compared to fine china. Women are above the "dirty work" of leadership. "Behind every good man is a great woman." Etc. It makes patriarchy a little more palatable for many, and it also feeds the "holier than thou" mindset that many women in patriarchy show.

I agree with about the *possible* scenario wrt Mrs. D. I have seen that happen, too! Enough that the thought crossed my mind as well. I have also seen men--grown men w/ teens of their own--get downright angry when a young lady dressed immodestly (by their standards: we're talking shorts and cami shirt in the summer, she was completely covered), so I can also see a man saying something if he thought she wasn't being modest.

YES!! She JUST showed it to me a few minutes ago! LOL And she is majorly freaking out about the finale next week. That's all she's talked about since I got home. I don't mind. I'm a bit of fangirl myself.

I'm not sure if you're talking to a specific poster or in general, but growing up, I had plenty of people "harp" about modesty: my parents, various churches, and even schools (all very patriarchal, btw). It probably has to do with what kind of circles you run in, whether or not you've had to desk with this.

Yeah, my sisters and I are definitely SPN fans, though we're no where NEAR the level of fan as our dds. And yeah, I DO have a soft spot for my first fandoms. And some of my happiest moments as a teen centered around these fandoms. I would love for dd to have memories like that, esp one that included Mom, ya know? Y'all are talking me more and more into this! :p

Modesty, IMO, is about respect: toward yourself and to those around you. It's about dressing appropriately for the situation. It's about showing to others that you care enough about them and what's going on to dress in a way that shows appreciation and consideration. (Wearing a formal dress to a formal event, wearing clothes that allow you to participate in active events, etc.) It's about considering how oneself feels and the image you want to portray to others. (Choosing clothes that reflect your own tastes and needs, making yourself as attractive (or even unattractive, I suppose) as possible within the appropriateness of the event. Real modesty has nothing to do with avoiding attractiveness or with others' impure or slanderous thoughts. But it does include considering what the *general* image is that you portray. Real modesty is entirely subjective and relative to the event and those who attend, particularly those who host the event. JMHO

This!! Exactly why I think the greater wrong was committed by the adults!!

Thanks y'all! Lots of great thoughts!! I'm babysitting for a friend today, and the kids are all sleeping and I have nothing better to do than sit here, read WTM posts and watch Supernatural reruns. ;) but my dd has been texting me all morning about the convention. She's busy trying to figure out how much it will all cost. She says she got it all figured and there's a paper on my bed with all the info. :D (Oh, and for other Supernatural fans, she sent me a gif where Jared Padaleki (sp?!) says that next weeks finale is better than any of the previous seasons! The last five seconds "change the landscape." And Jensen's been quoted as saying, when he read the script for the finale, "Oh wow. Oh wow. They went there!") BTW, I left HER, not her older brother, in charge of her siblings while I'm gone all. day. And this isn't the first time she's had to do something like that. She is very responsible and dependable. So while this isn't about whether or not she's earned it or deserves it, she really has!

I agree that at 14/15 young adults should have a say in what happens to money they earn...a huge say! But they still need guidance, and dd agreed that saving money toward college-related expenses was a good idea. THEN she found out about the conv. I'm not saying she shouldn't (or should) use her money toward it. Just that, as her mom, I want to be careful that she doesn't lose sight of the bigger picture and goals/dreams she has for herself. And I'm not the best at money management, either, which is why I was looking for perspective...which y'all are wonderfully providing! I am leaning more and more toward this. I would cover all expenses if I could! But I don't think that will be possible.

Trying AGAIN to reply.... Dd will be earning $100 each week as a mothers helper to another homeschooling mom. So extra hours really aren't an option. 75% isn't carved into stone, but even at that and 10% to tithe (which isn't mandatory IMO but her dad highly encourages it) that leaves $15 a week to a girl with really no expenses of her own. Now, I could add things for her to take care of with this job, like part of her clothes, toiletries, etc. But this is also the girl who wants to go to college out of state and also travel to London as possibly part of college. So, we figured that most of her money should go toward saving toward her doing what she wants for college, instead of settling for the U. in town. All that just to give you a big more perspective, esp WRT to the $$. I'm really enjoying your thoughts. I just can't reply easily to all them while I'm on my iPod.

Can I just say I hate posting on my iPod? I've lost three posts just today.

My dd REALLY wants to go to the Season 10 SUPERNATURAL convention in Minneapolis next year. It lines up perfectly for her 16th birthday. I would love to take her, but she would have to cover a good portion of the cost herself. She's supposed to start a job this fall, so she will likely have earned enough money to cover all costs! BUT I told her she needs to save 75% of her income for college related expenses. She's scheduled to graduate high school in 2016. She will still be 16 when this happens. On one hand, I can see this being a once in a lifetime event. Even if another convention comes around, at that point, she probably wouldn't be going with me, and we've never done a mother-daughter trip except for a couple visits to family. So I would love to do this for her. OTOH, we don't have a lot of money to put toward her college either. Would you make an exception for something like this?

First thing, I would massage some lavender oil on her neck. If that didn't work, then I'd give her some ibuprofen and some heat therapy (hot rice sock, heating pad, hot shower, or whatever was convenient) until she felt better.

My perception is that: 1) Clare had a problem with the patriarchal mindset that seems prevalent in this group, and that this caused her to come to wrong conclusions wrt the dads on the balcony. She posted those accusations unfairly, and I imagine some otherwise good men might get unfairly painted with that brush. 2) The real problem the directors had is that she didn't back down and become embarrassed or admit that she was wrong. She stood up for what she considered a right decision (Her dress was within guidelines and she wasn't doing anything wrong). So, yes, I do believe both sides did something wrong, but it's the adults in the situation that failed the most, IMO, by not acting more mature and handling the situation with grace and tact instead of the bully attitude of "I'm the adult; you have to do what I say." If the adults had acted with consistency and maturity, then I doubt the dads on the balcony would have ever been an issue beyond Clare and her friends. The adults poked a dog with a stick and then got mad when the dog snapped back instead of cowering.

Just to clarify: my niece will follow rules without questioning because those are the rules. She isn't a "pot stirrer". But those rules had better not be arbitrary. And the issue with my niece is just that some adults--and yes, invariably, they also follow the patriarchal mindset--just can't handle an attractive, intelligent, and CONFIDENT (not rebellious) young lady.

I can see this bring my niece, except she's not homeschooled. She's leggy and busty and very attractive. She is very considerate of others, but at the same time, very confident of herself. She will be the first to stand up to ANYONE if she feels that someone is getting bullied. And she isn't afraid to stand up for herself, either. This has caused some conflict, because around here, the mindset that children don't argue with adults but do what they're told is very prevalent. So, once told to leave, the issue then becomes a child not listening to adults or being argumentative. Many adults, some in my own family, have a hard time with being confronted by a teen! My niece has butted heads with many adults, because not only does she not follow this "where a burlap sack" mindset of modesty...and even if she did, she'd probably still look attractive!...but she's not afraid to challenge anyone.

*sigh* I am such a geek. My first thought was no, you shouldn't feel guilty! Ten, Eleven, Nine...it's okay to like different doctors, and to even change your mind on who is "your" doctor. :001_cool: I think this comes from living 24/7 with a teen dd who relates EVERYTHING to one fandom or another. She really brings out my inner geek. :o :001_rolleyes: Either way, medical doctor or The Doctor, I don't think you should feel guilty one bit for switching. And based on your last post, if seeing her would help right now, don't feel bad about settling for her and planning to switch as soon as your preference opens up.

Confession: I use an air horn with my kids and dogs. If the kids get too roudy, I do not want to yell over them but I still need to get their attention. The air horn works great. We used it up train the dogs not to jump on people, too. It is very loud!!!! It will absolutely have everyone's attention within a hundred yards.

All handheld devices are REQUIRED to have a case in our house. Everyone that I have ever known, from child to adult, who has not had a case for their whatever, has ended up with cracked screens at the least. I have extremely rough children, but this rule has saved us wrt damaged devices. The only thing it didn't save was my dd7's Kindle that she decided to take in the bath with her. O_O The fact that dd(now 8) still doesn't have a Kindle (because I can't afford to replace it, and she's having to save her own money toward a new one) has helped the others to realize the precarious nature of owning an expensive device. I still have to fuss at kids for leaving a device on the couch, and they are in major trouble if I find it on the floor, but all that still happens because kids do forget. If it weren't for those cases, we'd have a lot more casualties around here. Except for dd14, who is extremely careful, no would probably still have a device.

Bookmarking for the awesome recipes!!!